Marines prefer Glock 9mm over .45acp 1911

sore shoulder · Post by **sore shoulder** » Sat Feb 21, 2015 4:16 pm

BlaineG wrote:
sore shoulder wrote:Blaine, my wife has very small hands and not a lot of hand strength. I showed her how to do the left thumb pushes last round in mag down while also pushing down with the other thumb on top of the next round, thereby using the strength of both thumbs together. The magazine is gripped in the left hand while doing this. I'm sure you know this method, but thought I would share it just in case.
No...actually, I've never been shown that...I've always tried to brute force it with the one thumb....The Big Light Bulb just went on over my head...thanks.....I own you one free tuba lesson

No prob brother, I'm glad I could help. If you think about it, you are basically doing the same thing that loading assist tool does. If you have soft hands the feed lips might be a little rough on that left thumb after awhile so the tool is kinda handy from that respect.

wecsoger · Post by **wecsoger** » Sat Feb 21, 2015 4:17 pm

Well, I'm so glad we got all this sorted.

Next up, when you mount the roll should the toilet paper come up over the top, or around the bottom?

(grin)

Blaine · Post by **Blaine** » Sat Feb 21, 2015 4:52 pm

wecsoger wrote:Well, I'm so glad we got all this sorted.

Next up, when you mount the roll should the toilet paper come up over the top, or around the bottom?

(grin)

Around the bottom....EVERY good .444 shooter knows that..Duh.

Blaine · Post by **Blaine** » Sat Feb 21, 2015 4:54 pm

sore shoulder wrote:
BlaineG wrote:
sore shoulder wrote:Blaine, my wife has very small hands and not a lot of hand strength. I showed her how to do the left thumb pushes last round in mag down while also pushing down with the other thumb on top of the next round, thereby using the strength of both thumbs together. The magazine is gripped in the left hand while doing this. I'm sure you know this method, but thought I would share it just in case.
No...actually, I've never been shown that...I've always tried to brute force it with the one thumb....The Big Light Bulb just went on over my head...thanks.....I own you one free tuba lesson
No prob brother, I'm glad I could help. If you think about it, you are basically doing the same thing that loading assist tool does. If you have soft hands the feed lips might be a little rough on that left thumb after awhile so the tool is kinda handy from that respect.

I'm sure you have heavy callouses on one of your hands....

sore shoulder · Post by **sore shoulder** » Sat Feb 21, 2015 4:55 pm

BlaineG wrote:
wecsoger wrote:Well, I'm so glad we got all this sorted.

Next up, when you mount the roll should the toilet paper come up over the top, or around the bottom?

(grin)
Around the bottom....EVERY good .444 shooter knows that..Duh.

Every married man knows it's over the top. With the folds so it comes to a point. Cause it works better that way.

sore shoulder · Post by **sore shoulder** » Sat Feb 21, 2015 4:56 pm

BlaineG wrote:
sore shoulder wrote:
BlaineG wrote:
sore shoulder wrote:Blaine, my wife has very small hands and not a lot of hand strength. I showed her how to do the left thumb pushes last round in mag down while also pushing down with the other thumb on top of the next round, thereby using the strength of both thumbs together. The magazine is gripped in the left hand while doing this. I'm sure you know this method, but thought I would share it just in case.
No...actually, I've never been shown that...I've always tried to brute force it with the one thumb....The Big Light Bulb just went on over my head...thanks.....I own you one free tuba lesson
No prob brother, I'm glad I could help. If you think about it, you are basically doing the same thing that loading assist tool does. If you have soft hands the feed lips might be a little rough on that left thumb after awhile so the tool is kinda handy from that respect.
I'm sure you have heavy callouses on one of your hands....

Just the one I slap tuba players with.

CowboyTutt · Post by **CowboyTutt** » Sat Feb 21, 2015 5:12 pm

You guys are so funny! Thanks for a good laugh!

What about a Glock in 10mm? Seems like a good compromise? Thanks to the gentleman who mentioned Colonel Cooper. He was a smart guy. -Tutt

Panzercat · Post by **Panzercat** » Sat Feb 21, 2015 5:49 pm

sore shoulder wrote:
Bill in Oregon wrote:Would various international conventions ever allow a more effective WFN-type nose profile on FMJ 9mm? Seems this might go a ways toward solving this very old, unwinnable argument.
Interestingly the original 9mm round was a jacketed truncated cone, which I happen to think is a very very good design and try to buy them for various pistol rounds I load for whenever I find it. I think RN is a feeding reliability thing.

As i recall, we didn't sign on to those various international conventions limiting ammunition types, but we seem to abide by them nonetheless. Would still rather have a .45 so I'll comprimise-- Get a Glock 21 and call it even.

My EDC is a comfortable compromise between calber and payload, and wouldn't think any less of anybody making the same decision. Like I said, hicap is the standard these days.

@ Sore Shoulder
As for your picky 1911, don't know what to say. I purposely neglected to clean my previous one just to push it to failure because it was my every day piece. Even after 200+ rounds through without cleaning, it continued to run. It was also a modern build, however-- feedramp treatment for hollowpoints and low cut ejector port. Sounds like yours was original spec. But in the end, it came down to the same concern-- Payload. I just couldn't justify 8 rounds when there were other alternatives. I was going to do the paraordinance thing as well, but that started to get too rich for my meager budget.

horsesoldier03 · Post by **horsesoldier03** » Sat Feb 21, 2015 6:12 pm

I am not sure why, but it seems like GLOCK lovers constantly feel the need to impress upon everyone else that their gun is superior. I suspect they are only trying to convince themselves. I also think that it is peculiar that they only try to compare the GLOCK to a 1911.

After the Marines disarmed and destroyed their weapons at Yemen, I can only suspect that they felt a GLOCK makes it an easier accomplishment!

sore shoulder · Post by **sore shoulder** » Sat Feb 21, 2015 6:45 pm

Panzercat wrote:
sore shoulder wrote:
Bill in Oregon wrote:Would various international conventions ever allow a more effective WFN-type nose profile on FMJ 9mm? Seems this might go a ways toward solving this very old, unwinnable argument.
Interestingly the original 9mm round was a jacketed truncated cone, which I happen to think is a very very good design and try to buy them for various pistol rounds I load for whenever I find it. I think RN is a feeding reliability thing.
As i recall, we didn't sign on to those various international conventions limiting ammunition types, but we seem to abide by them nonetheless. Would still rather have a .45 so I'll comprimise-- Get a Glock 21 and call it even. My EDC is a comfortable compromise between calber and payload, and wouldn't think any less of anybody making the same decision. Like I said, hicap is the standard these days.

@ Sore Shoulder
As for your picky 1911, don't know what to say. I purposely neglected to clean my previous one just to push it to failure because it was my every day piece. Even after 200+ rounds through without cleaning, it continued to run. It was also a modern build, however-- feedramp treatment for hollowpoints and low cut ejector port. Sounds like yours was original spec. But in the end, it came down to the same concern-- Payload. I just couldn't justify 8 rounds when there were other alternatives. I was going to do the paraordinance thing as well, but that started to get too rich for my meager budget.

Why settle for a 21 in .45acp when you can have a 20 in 10mm? 50% more power and more rounds. 10mm pretty much made .45acp obsolete.

sore shoulder · Post by **sore shoulder** » Sat Feb 21, 2015 6:49 pm

horsesoldier03 wrote:I am not sure why, but it seems like GLOCK lovers constantly feel the need to impress upon everyone else that their gun is superior. I suspect they are only trying to convince themselves. I also think that it is peculiar that they only try to compare the GLOCK to a 1911.

After the Marines disarmed and destroyed their weapons at Yemen, I can only suspect that they felt a GLOCK makes it an easier accomplishment!

Glocks have been compared to several different guns here. Glock fans aren't doing anything 1911 fans aren't doing.

CowboyTutt · Post by **CowboyTutt** » Sat Feb 21, 2015 7:09 pm

I have to wonder if Cooper's 10mm round was the best military cartridge invented in a handgun for stopping power, high capacity, and could fit in a small, relatively light weight platform. It's been chambered in 1911's (like my Kimber, Dan Wesson's or obviously Colts) but also Glocks and soon Sig's. Take your pic, but its a great cartridge. It does require some practice to shoot as it does have some kick, but nothing various Special Op groups could not do IMHO.

I have ZERO LE experience though. I respect those who do and thanks for your service to your local communities. Heck, if I can shoot the thing and I'm not military or LE, probably anyone can with practice and training. I could be wrong though. Regards,

-Tutt

horsesoldier03 · Post by **horsesoldier03** » Sat Feb 21, 2015 7:15 pm

If I ever did go for a GLOCK, I would have to add the MECH TECH Carbine Conversion and it would definitely be in the 10 mm caliber.
http://glockparts.com/Detail.aspx?PROD=6692

Panzercat · Post by **Panzercat** » Sat Feb 21, 2015 7:21 pm

sore shoulder wrote:Why settle for a 21 in .45acp when you can have a 20 in 10mm? 50% more power and more rounds. 10mm pretty much made .45acp obsolete.

Ha! Sorry, I'm not that much of a subscriber when it comes to the 10mm coolaid. That said, i wouldn't say no to a 10mm 1911 if you handed me one

horsesoldier03 wrote:If I ever did go for a GLOCK, I would have to add the MECH TECH Carbine Conversion and it would definitely be in the 10 mm caliber.
http://glockparts.com/Detail.aspx?PROD=6692

I was looking pretty hard at those myself. Couldn't justify the cost though. You're all but paying for two guns if you don't have a glock just sitting around, collecting dust. Just can't bring myself to pay $600+ for a carbine.

Oh, and...

sore shoulder · Post by **sore shoulder** » Sat Feb 21, 2015 8:22 pm

Koolaid? Since when is 750fpe x15+1 koolaid, but 500fpe x 8+1 is good? And the 10mm fully loaded weighs less than an empty 1911.

You better come up for air before you drown in 1911 koolaid that's well past it's expiration date.

Panzercat · Post by **Panzercat** » Sun Feb 22, 2015 12:18 am

sore shoulder wrote:Koolaid? Since when is 750fpe x15+1 koolaid, but 500fpe x 8+1 is good? And the 10mm fully loaded weighs less than an empty 1911. You better come up for air before you drown in 1911 koolaid that's well past it's expiration date.

Don't make me come over there and shoot your Glock. Because I will. All ten millimeters of it.

I know the velocity numbers and am certainly not contesting them. Trust me, I poured over the data before I made a final decision on my EDC caliber of choice. But frankly, I've got a proven stopper at comfortable price point per round. I have a wide variety of grains to choose from and don't have to worry about the fact that most store bought 10mm is downloaded anyway, nessecitating reloading or premium prices to get the intended spec out of it. 10mm also comes with recoil-- More than that of the already snappy .40.

I see it this way-- .45 is optimized for thin skinned targets. The round is likely to leave more of its energy in them than the higher velocity 10mm. All calibers can and do over penetrate, but humans aren't well armored to begin with. Plus I get a marginally bigger hole to contribute to blood loss. 10mm, on the other hand, works well on tougher stuff. It's pretty much unanimously agreed that it's the better trail caliber.

Finally, if I wanted 10mm at 10mm prices, .460 rowland is only a kit away. I bought my gun with that particular fact in mind-- I get an proven, effective round that is well supported by the industry at reasonable prices and if i decide i want to play in 45 Super or 460 territory, poof. I now have a firearm with equal or better performance.

It's not that I think 10mm is inferior. It's just I doubt that any two legged predator would know the difference enough to justify the tradeoffs.

sore shoulder · Post by **sore shoulder** » Sun Feb 22, 2015 10:35 am

I don't think I've ever seen .460 Rowland on the shelf, but I see 10mm often enough. And it seems the manufacturer of guns or kits for the gun refuse to make it without a huge compensater on the end to keep it from destroying the gun and the shooters hand at 40,000psi. It's got a lot of power, but so does a .44 magnum. And it still has less rounds on the same package. I don't think it's in the same category as 10mm for factory ammo, capacity and a standard manufactured pistol that isn't a potential bomb.

Panzercat · Post by **Panzercat** » Sun Feb 22, 2015 1:22 pm

sore shoulder wrote:I don't think I've ever seen .460 Rowland on the shelf, but I see 10mm often enough. And it seems the manufacturer of guns or kits for the gun refuse to make it without a huge compensater on the end to keep it from destroying the gun and the shooters hand at 40,000psi. It's got a lot of power, but so does a .44 magnum. And it still has less rounds on the same package. I don't think it's in the same category as 10mm for factory ammo, capacity and a standard manufactured pistol that isn't a potential bomb.

When I can get 44 mag in 3.8 double stack, you let me know.

Anyway, I'm comfortable with my choice, thanks. I'll get a 10mm some day.

Post by **Old Savage** » Sun Feb 22, 2015 1:36 pm

When Evan Marshall? was keeping track of such things it looked like they were having an issue with the ten on bullet construction and consistent function in various situations.

Blaine · Post by **Blaine** » Sun Feb 22, 2015 2:03 pm

Old Savage wrote:When Evan Marshall? was keeping track of such things it looked like they were having an issue with the ten on bullet construction and consistent function in various situations.

Evan Marshall was a self-aggrandizing gun person, in cahoots with the ammo companies to sell more ammo for them.....

CowboyTutt · Post by **CowboyTutt** » Sun Feb 22, 2015 3:29 pm

Panzercat I don't think anyone is trying to change your mind and I appreciate your original post to the article. I did a lot of research trying to find the most powerful cartridge I could safely use on the 1911 platform and considered the 460 Rowland even but decided the 10mm was the best compromise between pistol (egads, I typed in piston at first-too much Harley engine build on the brain!) size and power.

The 9mm has come a long way and with modern expanding bullets is no longer the "small hole pass through" cartridge it once was. It may even have an advantage with the right bullet penetrating body armor that so many of the nut cases seem to be using (better than the 45 ACP for sure).

I do share Frank's distaste for the 40 S&W.

I did a CCW class some years ago and the two instructors were trained by Colonel Cooper himself and had some priceless videos of him that we saw but are not available to the general public. The Colonel was the real deal and I lament the way his legacy has been treated by those who came after him.

Anyhow, thanks for the thought provoking OP.

-Tutt aka Andy

tman · Post by **tman** » Sun Feb 22, 2015 3:40 pm

In the real world, what will a $3200 Kimber do that a $600 Glock can't?

sore shoulder · Post by **sore shoulder** » Sun Feb 22, 2015 3:47 pm

tman wrote:In the real world, what will a $3200 Kimber do that a $600 Glock can't?

Cost more money and annoy all your Glock owning friends who get tired of you talking about your Kimber like its the only gun that can fire a bullet the same direction twice.

CowboyTutt · Post by **CowboyTutt** » Sun Feb 22, 2015 4:02 pm

Hey, I just wanted a nice 1911 in 10mm in CA and that was all I could get here that was certified for sale OK? I have nothing at all against a Glock!

-Tutt

P.S. And it "only" cost me $1100 (where the Heck did 3.2 K come from?

) and needed the least amount of gunsmithing of any of my guns which in the end made it a bargain!

There have been days when I think I single handedly support the gunsmithing industry!

Post by **Old Savage** » Sun Feb 22, 2015 4:17 pm

Tutti, when will you buy a regular normal firearm?

Maybe you examine the mysteries of the venerable 45 ACP.

Or The 44 Especial. That actually came out pretty good in Evan Marshall's one shot stop statistics.

CowboyTutt · Post by **CowboyTutt** » Sun Feb 22, 2015 4:23 pm

Now what would be the fun in that???

Thanks Fred, hope your doing well. -Andy

Post by **Old Savage** » Sun Feb 22, 2015 4:29 pm

The wheel has already been invented.

Send me about four grand so I can pick out some stuff for you.

CowboyTutt · Post by **CowboyTutt** » Sun Feb 22, 2015 4:32 pm

Sadly, my budget is shot for a while finishing my unique Harley engine build so no 4K available my friend. As to firearms, everything in my small little gun safe and collection is a crown jewel as it should be.

-A-

CowboyTutt · Post by **CowboyTutt** » Sun Feb 22, 2015 4:43 pm

Oops, just saw that the OP was from Sore Shoulder and not Panzercat. Sorry guys! Mia culpa!

Doesn't change the meaning of what I wrote though and thanks for posting the article. It's all good.

-A-

CowboyTutt · Post by **CowboyTutt** » Sun Feb 22, 2015 5:11 pm

Fred, you keep modifying your post. I already did the comparisons between the 45 ACP and the 10mm years ago. While at one time the 45 ACP +P and a full strength 10mm were close to equal in terms of bullet weight and velocity (the 10 had 100 more fps using a 200 grain bullet), I think the modern 10mm ammunition available from Double Tap and BB have a big advantage over the 45 ACP +P and the platform holds more ammunition as Frank said. But I have not recently compared available 45 ACP + P to the 10mm.

I could see how the 44 Special would work great but no better than the 45 Long Colt (which is of course superior!

) and the only semi-auto that could load something close to the 44 "Especial" would be a Desert Eagle in 44 Mag and with reduced loads.

Regards,

-Tutt

Post by **Old Savage** » Sun Feb 22, 2015 5:18 pm

Here you go on that statistical power thing again. The regular 45 ACP is just better.

CowboyTutt · Post by **CowboyTutt** » Sun Feb 22, 2015 5:21 pm

Pardon if we disagree Old Friend. How's the aftershave line doing?

-T-

Post by **Old Savage** » Sun Feb 22, 2015 5:22 pm

Sell that Harley, buy a Jeep and send that 4K along.

As I recall we never agreed. But, I still have a box of those 45 Colt super loads which I marked Rifle Only.

CowboyTutt · Post by **CowboyTutt** » Sun Feb 22, 2015 5:25 pm

Oh no my friend, the new engine is going to be quite special! I think not! My lifetime achievement. LOL -T-

CowboyTutt · Post by **CowboyTutt** » Sun Feb 22, 2015 5:40 pm

Well, I wouldn't go so far as to say we never agreed! You have some firearms that I really liked and you actually did like some of mine. Enough hijacking of this thread though I think. Let me know if you need more super loads. I might be able to help.

-A-

sore shoulder · Post by **sore shoulder** » Sun Feb 22, 2015 6:01 pm

Sell a Harley and buy a Jeep.

Thats trading one headache for another.

After 5 Jeeps over a 15 year period I'm down to one, and it's not a CJ thankfully.

Post by **Old Savage** » Sun Feb 22, 2015 6:03 pm

Yes, but more moderate. I think you guys fairly well hashed out the original subject matter.

CowboyTutt · Post by **CowboyTutt** » Sun Feb 22, 2015 6:23 pm

I would agree and the guys on this forum are no dunces, that is for sure. My new Harley engine will make 150+ HP in a '09' Dyna and has a "wife approval factor" of minus 100. Thankfully for me or not, I don't have to worry about such things. -Tutt

octagon · Post by **octagon** » Sun Feb 22, 2015 10:35 pm

Tutt I'd like to hear about that 150 HP motor. How a new post?

Canuck Bob · Post by **Canuck Bob** » Mon Feb 23, 2015 12:16 pm

I have little knowledge but would prefer a high capacity double action, just seems to make sense. I owned a Colt Series 70 once and trained on the Inglis Browning High Power, It seemed the high capacity clip made sense for a military pistol. The SA felt like a issue, carried cocked and locked rather than standard DA style always made me feel a little unsafe.

JohndeFresno · Post by **JohndeFresno** » Mon Feb 23, 2015 1:57 pm

BigSky56 wrote:With the regular military looking for a new pistol and ammo to replace the Beretta it will probably be the 5.7x28 with 20-30 rds mags. if you want to improve the 9 or 45 just use a fmc truncated cone style bullet for combat, as recommended by Jeff Cooper. the 45 fmc ball I field tested in RVN wouldnt penetrate a army flak jacket a ball 9 did. ball ammo in 9 or 45 has poor performance unless a CNS shot is made. After field tests in combat, I started with 19ll & M3 GG , I settled on a P35 & walther mpl with subgun ammo. the 9mm never let me down. danny

Now THAT is something I forgot, and highly relevant! I never use ball ammo (since the Service) so I must admit I had forgotten about the superior penetration of factory 9mm ball over Army Issue .45 ball.

JohndeFresno · Post by **JohndeFresno** » Mon Feb 23, 2015 3:06 pm

wecsoger wrote:Well, I'm so glad we got all this sorted.

Next up, when you mount the roll should the toilet paper come up over the top, or around the bottom?

(grin)

Over the top, of course. There was actually a reported meeting of a plumber's union, somewhere in the past, where it was reported that their first order of business was to decide upon this issue. The verdict almost unanimously was over the top, so that your hand doesn't hit the wall as you retrieve the "therapeutic paper." That takes care of THAT!

...Sorry, I couldn't help myself, even if this is off-thread...

JohndeFresno · Post by **JohndeFresno** » Mon Feb 23, 2015 3:34 pm

sore shoulder wrote:I don't think I've ever seen .460 Rowland on the shelf, but I see 10mm often enough. And it seems the manufacturer of guns or kits for the gun refuse to make it without a huge compensater on the end to keep it from destroying the gun and the shooters hand at 40,000psi. It's got a lot of power, but so does a .44 magnum. And it still has less rounds on the same package. I don't think it's in the same category as 10mm for factory ammo, capacity and a standard manufactured pistol that isn't a potential bomb.

I've fired a .460 Rowland - impressive! Manageable recoil! Does its job on test material!

But it's a bear to disassemble the slide due to its very heavy spring, needed to tame the beast. And that doesn't make it very easy for Tap-Rack-Bang remedy in field emergency conditions.

To me, it seems to come back to the excellent balance of power and effectiveness (with or without hollowpoints), functionality, and price point of the 1911. Para Ordnance, mentioned above as being expensive, offers several models, by the way, e.g. the 1911 Expert offered at one site for $476.00. No testers, that I am aware of, have complained about its accuracy or function. I have a 1911 Black Ops Para, and it is as accurate as I'm able to "prove," although I don't like the fact that its barrel fits the front bushing so tightly that I need a tool to take it down. The Colt 1911 Series 70 is still my favorite.

If, like Cowboy Tutt, I felt that I needed a semi with more power (as opposed to a good DA .44 Mag like one of the Taurus offerings at very reasonable prices), I would definitely look at the 10mm. But .45 and .44 whatever handloads are relatively cheap. Since you have a horse, how 'bout carrying an .45 "auto" in the saddle bag, AND a nice .44 Mag or Ruger .45 Colt with appropriate handloads on the hip to do it all?

tman · Post by **tman** » Mon Feb 23, 2015 4:28 pm

9mm ball will out penetrate 45 auto ball. a military consideration.

CowboyTutt · Post by **CowboyTutt** » Mon Feb 23, 2015 8:55 pm

I believe I said the 9mm would be better against body armor not far above your post! Regards! -Tutt

Malamute · Post by **Malamute** » Mon Feb 23, 2015 9:39 pm

BlaineG wrote:
Old Savage wrote:When Evan Marshall? was keeping track of such things it looked like they were having an issue with the ten on bullet construction and consistent function in various situations.
Evan Marshall was a self-aggrandizing gun person, in cahoots with the ammo companies to sell more ammo for them.....

Even Marshalls "one shot stops" study has been pretty thoroughly discredited as a work of fiction. Much of the data is statistically impossible. He's never been able to give credible answers for the problems people have found with his works. Nobody in current wound ballistics research gives him any credence.

Post by **Old Savage** » Mon Feb 23, 2015 9:46 pm

To what/whom do they give credence? Most of what is here appears to be personal theory/preference/ selective supporting info.

sore shoulder · Post by **sore shoulder** » Mon Feb 23, 2015 10:34 pm

As far as I'm aware Dr Fackler is still the authority. I may be wrong.

Malamute · Post by **Malamute** » Mon Feb 23, 2015 10:40 pm

Yes, Fackler and Roberts seem to be the most widely recognised experts in wounds ballistics studies.

One of the first things to catch people attention is he (Marshall) has come up with statistically impossible information.

People give credence to people that have treated gunshot wounds, done actual studies, working with military, FBI, and other law enforcement. Some is based in testing in recognised test media (calibrated ballistic gel) and comparison of test results with actual autopsy results and on the job police departments shooting people with certain calibers and loads. The "data" collected by Marshall is highly suspect because of all the flaws in its presentation. Some consider it outright fraud.

Its not about a peeing match. Its been pretty well established that their work isnt valid.

http://www.firearmstactical.com/marshal ... ancies.htm

http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs24.htm#Too Good To Be True

http://www.firearmstactical.com/afte.htm

http://www.firearmstactical.com/streetstoppers.htm

Streetstar · Post by **Streetstar** » Mon Feb 23, 2015 11:17 pm

Another .45 variant (ala the 460 Rowland, 45 Super, etc --- ) was the .400 Cor-Bon -- i dont know if it still has legs, but was a neat idea

There are a lot of good cartridges that are decent ideas that fade away into oblivion (this one -- the 10mm was on the precipice, a ton of "short magnums" - the MArlin "express" rounds

The 400 Cor Bon seemed to appear shortly after the 357 Sig arrived on scene ---- the almost dead 10mm recovered and is now a niche cartridge --- i wonder if the 357 Sig will do the same

400 Cor-Bon? --- maybe already gone --- but i like the idea (.45 necked down to ,40 ) to create a round with near 10mm ballistics and the feeding ease of a bottleneck

Some would argue - "Limited capacity, just like the .45 !" -- but who cares --- The Sig 220 in 10mm i just ordered is also an 8 round pistol(like the .45) ---
Its not a "tactical" pistol or a combat pistol - its a match pistol that can do a nice job in the field too --- and with a 5" barrel and full stainless construction, -- its not a defense oriented piece, unless you use it as a nightstand gun ------

I really like 'em all --- i think the Glock 21 also holds 13 rounds though of .45 , but it has a big frame that shooters with smaller hands may not be able to agree with ---- Its good for me, but wouldnt be good for some buddies of mine who are smaller - even the SF model is a big gun

My current and unabashed opinion though is that the classic Sig platform (a'la the 220/ 229 and others) is a superior combat platform than either the glock or 1911 -- heck, the 226 was neck and neck with the Beretta 92 back in '84 and 85 -- and some units prefer it . The Glock has some shortcomings in chambered carry that the Sig overcomes with the DA/SA business (at least in my eyes) - shortcomings is probably not the right word -- but a chambered Sig on your hip is as safe as carrying a .357 with the cylinder loaded up - it takes a very deliberate action to bring it into play even with no external safety