Post-64 Model 94 Manufacturing Dates by Serial Number

[Modoc ED]

Yeasterday, we had a thread going where "oldmax" started a thread titled "94 AE Manufacture Date?".

During the course of this thread and all the posts in it, OD posted the following years/numbers as if they were fact.
1989 to 5,527,732
1990 to 5,612656
When asked by Joe, OD stated they were ending numbers for the years indicated. When questioned by Joe and me he stated that he got a list of years/numbers from a fellow named JBledsoe and that this JBledsoe fellow had asked him not to publish the list of years/numbers.

I know OD is an upright guy and I know he strives to be helpful and I know he would not post info without being reasonably certain of it's accuracy. In this case, I feel that OD used the list provided by JBledsoe in good faith and as his basis for the accuracy of the years/numbers.

When I saw the years/numbers posted by OD and his telling of a list compiled/possessed by JBledsoe of an accurate list of years/numbers for Post-64 Model 94 Winchester Rifels, I thought, "Wow, at last a good list of numbers"!!

BUT after doing some research of my own today by calling some friends of mine and looking at a couple of websites etc., I'm just not buying the years/numbers posted by OD as being correct. Even David Kennedy the Curator for the Cody Museum doesn't believe that there is an accurate list of accurate years/numbers for post-64 Model 94 Rifels past a certain date -- namely the takeover date of Winchester by USRAC.

Here's an example of what I'm talking (errrrrrrrrrr typing) about.

OD listed the following years/numbers:
1989 to 5,527,732
1990 to 5,612,656

Blue Book of Gun Values (28th Edition) lists the years/numbers:
1989 to 5,574,822
1990 to 5,615,397

So what's my point. NOBODY KNOWS. That's my point. NOBODY can post a year/serial number for late model Winchester 94s with any accuracy.

oldmax asked about serial number 5590xxx. Based on the dates above from both sources that serial number would have been made in 1990 BUT guess what? Nobody can say so with any accuracy. Maybe a SWAG (Scientific Wild *** Guess) but not fact.

Just my 2¢ .

[J Miller]

ED,

Are you a member of Beartooth Shooters Forum? If not join and go straight to JBledsoe. He is supposedly a great collector of Win 94 Trappers and other models and the list OD quoted from is his.

I've butted heads with Bledsoe to the point I just quit going to the forum. He has not responded with any form of list when he was asked, but has stated on the forum that he put it together from serial numbers from the factory finishing shop or something like that.

In other words the numbers are not a list generated by Winchester or in this case USRAC for each year, but by parts of the factory where the gun parts are processed. How accurate this data is I have no idea. I don't give this list any credibility since I have not had the oppertunity to use it to verify the numbers of guns which dates of manufacture can be determined by other means.

I don't fault OD for not posting this list. If he said he promised not to then he is just keeping his word.

Joe

[Modoc ED]

ED,

Are you a member of Beartooth Shooters Forum? If not join and go straight to JBledsoe. He is supposedly a great collector of Win 94 Trappers and other models and the list OD quoted from is his.

I don't fault OD for not posting this list. If he said he promised not to then he is just keeping his word.

Joe

No, I'm not a member of Beartooth Shooters Forum. I did go there after reading OD's posts yesterday and his mention of JBledsoe. Looks interesting and I may join at a later date.

I don't fault OD for not posting the list either as he did give his word.

What strikes me as odd is that if anyone should have the information, it should be the Curator of the Cody Firearms Museum (David Kennedy) who evidently doesn't have a clue as to what JBledsoe is talking about.

[Old Savage]

5569762 was purchased on 3/14/90.

[OD*]

I have sent Jim a PM regarding his serial number list, if I don't hear back from him, you'll have to join and request the information yourself.

[OD*]

5569762 was purchased on 3/14/90.

That's what the list says too.

1989 to 5,527,732
1990 to 5,612656

[oldmax]

Thanks for all the replies and follow up,
At least I have a Ball Park Date,

5590xxx, Anyone care to guess if it is a Winchester or USRA Manufacture.

[OD*]

Thanks for all the replies and follow up,
At least I have a Ball Park Date,

5590xxx, Anyone care to guess if it is a Winchester or USRA Manufacture.

Probably USRAC, change occurred near 5 million serial number.
Check the Winchester logo on the butt-cap, in fine script it will say if it's a USRAC.

[Modoc ED]

I have sent Jim a PM regarding his serial number list, if I don't hear back from him, you'll have to join and request the information yourself.

OD -

I hope you noticed in my post that I went out of my way NOT to disparage you. I appreciate your efforts to supply useful information.

My only point was that unfortunately, I don't think we will ever have reliable information that puts dates of manufacture with serial numbers for late Winchester Model 94s. Maybe we can get close but close doesn't get us a cigar. Who knows. Perhaps one day original USRAC records will surface but until then, it's a stuff-shoot.

Using the Winchester Model 94AE as an example, I feel that anyone who sells one of those rifles and gives an absolute date of manufacture for that rifle to the buyer is committing fraud. Plain and simple.

Maybe JBledsoe will come across for us. We'll just have to wait and see.

[Jarhead]

You can check your seriel numbers very quickly via this web site. I asume they are accurate, but can't say for sure.

http://armscollectors.com/sn/winlookup.php

[OD*]

The whole point is, no list, none, pre or post 64 is 100% accurate.
Just because a serial dates to a certain year, does not mean it was MADE in that year. Even Winchester won't tell you when it was built, they can't, they can only tell you when that particular receiver was given it's serial number. The closest they can possibly come to actual dating is by polishing room records, warehousing records and shipping records.

[OD*]

You can check your seriel numbers very quickly via this web site. I asume they are accurate, but can't say for sure.

http://armscollectors.com/sn/winlookup.php

From the mid '30s thru early '40s, they're not.

[Hobie]

I don't know what the big kerflumix is about. LOOK at the numbers, just how far off are the two sets of numbers that you want to spend so much time and verbage on this? Rather than say something like, "number group 'X' is this and 'Y' is this and there is a flux zone of so-many to work out" you attacked (and that is exactly how I read the post) a reasonable, conscientious, honest, provider of info.

While we may disagree with or wish for more accurate info or desire to know all the background there is no reason to attack anyone on the subject.

As ALL have noted, nobody knows with CERTAINTY detailed mfg dates for Winchesters post or PRE-64. We can be, with REASON, reasonably certain, i.e. SWAG it, but we don't know without any room for error.

If I had acquired serial number info based on actual examination or reports of actual examinations of rifles and their ephemera which might be connected to particular individuals I certainly would be VERY circumspect in releasing the details of that info. I can imagine that is JBledsoe's reasoning. If JBledsoe is opinionated, i.e. strongly believes there is a trend that he can see and which he bases his provided info, then I'd ask why. This is very basic intelligence gathering. E.g. if you've ever done any genealogical research you'll find that while you will make errors, sometimes intuition based on exposure to a particular family's thought process and behavior is a pretty good indicator of what actually happened. I see that Winchester has a corporate thought process that one could discern. That might be PART of the basis for JBLedsoe's opinion(s).

[oldmax]

Oh well, Sadly it's a US Repeating arms Manufacture.
But it's still a neat gun, And I won't feel bad shooting it....

Gotta get the House Major Hunny Do completed, Than to the range....

Thanks again all.....

[OD*]

Oh well, Sadly it's a US Repeating arms Manufacture.
But it's still a neat gun, And I won't feel bad shooting it....

Gotta get the House Major Hunny Do completed, Than to the range....

Thanks again all.....

Nothing wrong there, Winchesters actually improved under USRAC (quality, materials used, options available, etc.) from the 1964s-1980s.

[Griff]

Serial #s as guide for date of mfgr have been contested b4. On Winchester Collectors sit there some info that Madis' info is not accurate, even for pre-64s. Unfortunately with the fire that destroyed so many records, especially the pertinent date wheb the gun was transferrred from the plant to the warehouse, we'll never know. With the Post-64s being nearly 2/3s of the total production, accuracy of record keeping became much more difficult.

[Modoc ED]

I don't know what the big kerflumix is about.

While we may disagree with or wish for more accurate info or desire to know all the background there is no reason to attack anyone on the subject.

There is no kerflumix and as far as I know no one has been attacked.

The only reason I posted this thread was that in another thread some were giving out dates of manufacture for serial numbers as absolute, certain, fact and basing the information on a list held by a fellow named JBledsoe. In fact, the best we can do is to get close and then there is no certainty.

Thanks for pointing out what I was saying.

EDIT:

I do have a problem with JBledsoe releasing numbers piece-meal with implications that the information being released is factual but not feeling confident with releasing his complete list. He can't have it both ways.

[Old Savage]

5569762 was purchased on 3/14/90.

That's what the list says too.

1989 to 5,527,732
1990 to 5,612656

OD - I see that is true; the # was only meant as point of information. 42,000 rifles just seems like a lot for the first two months of the year when they only made 84,000 for the year on those #s

[OD*]

5569762 was purchased on 3/14/90.

That's what the list says too.

1989 to 5,527,732
1990 to 5,612656

OD - I see that is true; it was only meant as point of information. 42,000 rifles just seems like a lot for the first two months of the year when they only made 84,000 for the year on those #s

Yes Sir, until we see Winchester's ledgers from that era, it's ALL supposition

[Modoc ED]

OD Said: "Yes Sir, until we see Winchester's ledgers from that era, it's ALL supposition"

PREZACTLY!!!

[Old Savage]

OD - I had always wondered how long the store may have had it - thank you for the info that narrows that down. It is a great rifle, I love.

[OD*]

You're welcome Sir, but no thanks are needed, OS, I love 'em too.

[salvo]

Whats all the fuss about the dates stamped right on it






Here's some updated polishing room records for the pre 64's that was posted by Bert H.
http://forums.gunbroker.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=245213

A Winchester 94 that I bought from Victor was thought to be in the lost records 1943-48 turned out to be a 1942 and my 1954 is a 53, go figure!
It what makes collecting Winchesters fun.

[OD*]

FWIW,

Hi Dan,

Thanks for the PM.

The reason that I didn't want to make the list of DOM public is simply because it may not be 100% accurate. The beginning and ending serial numbers for each year could be off by several hundred in some cases. You may make it public if you want, however, there is no way to assure complete accuracy. I attempted to get USRA (Winchester) to verify the dates but they said that my data was more accurate than theirs. USRA said that serial no's were archived by block units by mfg, date and not shipping date. With considerable effort they can find when a gun was shipped but they have never compiled a date of manufacture list because they didn't feel the need.

I hope that helps,

Jim

Winchester Model 94 Manufacturing Dates

1982 - 2006

http://www.jbledsoe.com/MfgDates.htm

[Modoc ED]

Thanks for getting that list OD. Much appreciated.

[arjunky]

Thankyou OD,

Byron

[OD*]

You're welcome, fellas.

[J Miller]

OD,


Thanks for linking us to that list.

Joe

[OD*]

You're welcome, Joe.

[Big Bore 94]

I have seen a 1894 in 38-55 w/an octagon nickle steel barrel. Which would fall in the "1895" SN range. But it lettered in 1900.

[Hobie]

I don't know what the big kerflumix is about.

While we may disagree with or wish for more accurate info or desire to know all the background there is no reason to attack anyone on the subject.

There is no kerflumix and as far as I know no one has been attacked.

The only reason I posted this thread was that in another thread some were giving out dates of manufacture for serial numbers as absolute, certain, fact and basing the information on a list held by a fellow named JBledsoe. In fact, the best we can do is to get close and then there is no certainty.

Thanks for pointing out what I was saying.

EDIT:

I do have a problem with JBledsoe releasing numbers piece-meal with implications that the information being released is factual but not feeling confident with releasing his complete list. He can't have it both ways.

Ed,

I read your post as an attack. I disagree with you for the reasons stated.

[OD*]

I do have a problem with JBledsoe releasing numbers piece-meal with implications that the information being released is factual but not feeling confident with releasing his complete list. He can't have it both ways.

Actually, Jim didn't release it piece-meal, I did.
He can't be blamed for this testosterone peeing match.