Ammo preference for ccw

[Grizz]

In 9mm I tend to stick to 124/147gr HST or Golden Saber, in .45, 230gr Golden Saber (it's available, which HST is not around here) and in .40 either Gold Dot or HST.

have you ever tested golden sabers in water or gel and compare to gold dots?

.380 golden saber comes apart in water, gold dots just mushroom like the advertising fotos.
I never tried them in other calibers after that.

[ceb]

I carry a 442 j-frame, the Speer short barrell 135gr seems to have a growing following, but the old 158gr lead hollowpoint the Chicago or FBI load I think would still get the job done if need be and is what I load with.

[MrMurphy]

The FBI issues Golden Saber, or did. Good enough for me.

[Grizz]

the fbi shoot each other with mouse guns, or did.

I'm more of the curious-investigate kind of guy


to each of us our own

[7.62 Precision]

Golden Sabers work completely differently from other HP pistol bullets. Almost all HP bullets are hydraulically activated - they require a fluid or gel-like substance like flesh to initiate expansion. This is why HP bullets loaded with heavy materials like denim can fail to expand and act like FMJs.

Golden Sabers are designed to work differently. They are mechanically activated, so they will expand even after being loaded with clothing. They are very heavily used up here by LE where people often wear heavy clothing, and police can expect a suspect to be wearing a Carhart coat, hoody, denim shirt, and long underwear.

I have seen photos of them fired into gelatin, but never tried firing them into water. I also wonder if there are only certain velocity ranges within which they work. I have noticed that no major manufacturer loads the .355 GS bullets into a 357 SIG cartridge, for example. I have been meaning to ask someone if the bullet design is more sensitive to velocity than others. I understand that the Anchorage PD did quite a bit of their own testing on these before they started using them.

Also the GS cartridges from Remington do not use flash suppressed powder, so they have noticeably more muzzle flash than a lot of other SD pistol loads.

The Gold Dot is more of a traditional HP, but it is designed really well and because of its design also works better than a lot of other HPs through heavy clothing. I have carried Gold Dots a lot. They tend to feed reliably, too, even in finicky pistols.

From what I understand, both are good bullets, the GDs have a really good reputation and are used pretty heavily; the GSs main advantage is in colder climates where heavy clothing is likely to be encountered.

[loader]

CORBON/GLASER(DAKOTA AMMO Blue/Silver Glaser Safety Slug Ammunition

Glaser 30-06 Springfield 130 Grain Round Nose

For over 30 years, Glaser Safety Slug has been the perfect choice for use in populated, urban areas. Glaser's composite design uses a special thin-wall jacket, and precision compressed lead shot core with a soft polymer tip. This construction provides optimum balance between penetration and fragmentation. These round nose profile guarantees feeding reliability. Stopping power is maximized by the complete dispersal of the bullet energy into the intended target with immediate shock and trauma.
This rapid fragmentation delivers the energy to a large area. Reduced recoil allows a fast recovery for follow up shots if necessary. This makes Glaser the best choice for defensive situations.

Glaser Blue penetrates five to seven inches in International Ballistic Wound Association protocol testing, while silver penetrates eight to ten inches in the IWBA testing protocol.

BLUE: Glaser BLUE uses #12 shot compressed into a solid form. The Glaser BLUE produces immediate energy dispersal into the target, reducing the possibility of over penetration and creating abrupt stopping power. The numerous projectiles disperses outward generating an effective wound cavity.

SILVER: Glaser SILVER is made up of #6 shot. With the Silver load, you get much larger segments; deeper penetration and controlled energy release.

Both loads reduce the possibility of over penetration through the intended target. They provide for an added margin of safety. A missed round is much more likely to break up on an interior wall and dump its energy rather than proceeding unabated into an adjoining room. The light fast bullets reduce the felt recoil and are excellent loads for the small compact carry guns and snub nose revolvers. For over 27 years the Glaser Safety Slug has been the overwhelming choice for the "house gun" stored in the nightstand.

Blue is suggested for warmer climates where apparel is lighter making penetration easier.

SPECIFICATIONS:
Mfg Item Num: 06000
Category: AMMO CENTERFIRE
Caliber :30-06 Springfield
Bullet Type :Round Nose
Bullet Weight :130 GR
Muzzle Energy :2774 ft lbs
Muzzle Velocity :3100 fps
Rounds/box :6 PK

I am Not a liar and I will no longer be bothering you fine gentlemen

[Old Ironsights]

Funny, I didn't see it on the CorBon Site earlier and don't see it now...

http://www.corbon.com/corboncart/glaser ... k?limit=30
http://www.corbon.com/corboncart/glaser ... k?limit=30

And searching the entire CorBon site for .30-06 gives a big nada for Glaser:

http://www.corbon.com/corboncart/catalo ... /?q=.30-06

Only 2 rounds show up at all for 30-06 and they are DPX loads.

http://www.corbon.com/corboncart/catalo ... t/?q=30-06

If it's not available on the Manufacturer's site, you would think there is a reason... and that reason is unlikely to be "because it's too good".

How about you post an actual link to an available, currently manufactured product?

[rjohns94]

I googled 30-06 glaser and came up with many stores that have it, though it is no longer made. The data posted above by loader is accurate and valid.

[Old Ironsights]

I googled 30-06 glaser and came up with many stores that have it, though it is no longer made. The data posted above by loader is accurate and valid.

OK, it was valid. Mea Culpa.

But is no longer available from or promoted by the manufacturer, and when researching non-reloadable ammo I go to the Manufacturer's site, not "Ammo Warehouse".

So when I notice that "they don't make .30-06" except in DPX, I really don't have any reason to look further in hops of locating NOS. When a Manufacturer stops selling/making something, they do it for a reason - which makes anecdotal information all the more irrelevant.

But, OK. He could have bought some when it was still available/being made.

[rjohns94]

It's still available for sale on dozens of sights. Even you could buy some this very moment

[Old Ironsights]

It's still available for sale on dozens of sights. Even you could buy some this very moment

Why? It's a particularly dumb idea. That's why when I didn't see it on their site I had no inclination to look elsewhere. I can't even imagine why they ever would have made the stuff.

[7.62 Precision]

Stopping power is maximized by the complete dispersal of the bullet energy into the intended target with immediate shock and trauma.
This rapid fragmentation delivers the energy to a large area . . . . This makes Glaser the best choice for defensive situations.

This argument has never come close to being proven to be valid. Pistol bullets don't kill by dumping energy into a target. They kill by transforming kinetic energy into expansion and penetration to do one of two things; deprive the brain of blood and oxygen, or disrupt the central nervous system. To reliably accomplish this, years worth of real-world results have proven that you need a minimum average of about 12" of penetration.

Shallow penetration and tiny wound channels makes Glaser a poor choice for defensive situations.

Glaser Blue penetrates five to seven inches in International Ballistic Wound Association protocol testing, while silver penetrates eight to ten inches in the IWBA testing protocol.

Again, many years of gathered data on real-world shootings show that 12" average penetration is necessary, with 14"-16" optimal.

A missed round is much more likely to break up on an interior wall and dump its energy rather than proceeding unabated into an adjoining room. The light fast bullets . . . are excellent loads for the small compact carry guns and snub nose revolvers. For over 27 years the Glaser Safety Slug has been the overwhelming choice for the "house gun" stored in the nightstand.

This ammo has proven in independent testing to become a very good penetrator of interior walls, failing to fragment after penetrating drywall.

Keep in mind that for many years ammo choices, even by law enforcement agencies, was based on assumptions and "facts" that everyone had always known to be so, but were not backed up by realistic research. Only in the last couple decades has there really been a much stronger move toward more realistic testing, gathering data from coroner and hospital reports, and sharing data between organizations. As a result, we have the ability to know more about terminal ballistics of different types of ammunition, if we choose to know it. Of course, we don't know everything yet.

I have to take any marketing claims with a grain of salt when they come from the same company that claims their .380 load has more "stopping power" than any HP .45 ACP on the market.

ETA:
I did not address the .30-06 due to the fact that the discussion is about pistol cartridges. A frangible rifle cartridge can be an effective hunting cartridge, in the right circumstances; consider the Berger bullets, for example. On the other hand, I would be hesitant to trust Glaser rifle cartridges due to construction, in case a shot needed to go through a bit of bone or extra flesh to get to something vital.

[Malamute]

An interesting read on pre-fragmented ammunition,


http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs5.htm

[piller]

If you do carry concealed, please take your gun and ammo to the range and make sure that your gun will work with it and not jam. I have tried Gold Dot in my .45 ACP 1911, and it will not feed. HST, Hydra Shock, and a couple of others feed and give no trouble at all. The Gold Dots are in the .45 ACP cylinder of my Ruger Blackhawk. I assume most on here will have already done this function check, but for the 1 or 2 who might have forgotten, do it soon.

[7.62 Precision]

Good advice, and certain pistols ail tend to be more picky, 1911s, especially small ones, subcompact or micro-compact pistols, certain Walthers, etc. Even with the most reliable pistol models, a particular pistol may just not like a particular bullet, for undefinable reasons.

I talked to a guy not long ago who has been carrying a pistol daily for 2 years and has never fired it with any ammo. Unbelievable.

[vancelw]

I talked to a guy not long ago who has been carrying a pistol daily for 2 years and has never fired it with any ammo. Unbelievable.

That happens a lot more than us gun people think it would.
It's one reason Texas requires LEOs to qualify with at least 50 rounds every year, and some of it has to be duty ammo. Too many (1 is too many, right?) instances of constables or deputies pulling out a revolver with ammo corroded in the cylinders and belt loops because they never shot any and rotated it out.
A lot of folks buy "scare" guns, thinking the mere presence of a gun is all it takes to save them, and that they will never have to actually use it. So why fire it??

[7.62 Precision]

Again on the .30-06, since my previous post was not really clear:

I would not use a Glaser .30-06 for hunting. It might work fine one time with a perfect shot, and the next time with a perfect shot it might hit all the right vital organs with little pellets leaving pin-hole wound channels, leaving an animal bleeding only slowly to run off and die days later and miles away.

Most of the few working fragmenting hunting bullets were not designed for hunting, but just turned out to work, and need to be used with careful consideration. Careful consideration would lead me to avoid a Glaser rifle round completely. It does nothing that a lot of other bullets don't do better.

[rjohns94]

Probably why they aren't made any more!

[7.62 Precision]

Likely. The thing about hunting ammo is that it gets used regularly for the intended purpose, so if there is a bullet that works well, people notice, and if there is one that works poorly, people notice that, too. It keeps the market clean.

SD ammo is used for the intended purpose more rarely, and when people do use it, they rarely have the opportunity to really report on the performance, they certainly don't cut open the criminal and investigate the wounds, and generally the people who do cut open the criminal and investigate the wounds don't go out of the way to publicize the results - we have to go looking for them.

[Old Ironsights]

Likely. The thing about hunting ammo is that it gets used regularly for the intended purpose, so if there is a bullet that works well, people notice, and if there is one that works poorly, people notice that, too. It keeps the market clean.

SD ammo is used for the intended purpose more rarely, and when people do use it, they rarely have the opportunity to really report on the performance, they certainly don't cut open the criminal and investigate the wounds, and generally the people who do cut open the criminal and investigate the wounds don't go out of the way to publicize the results - we have to go looking for them.

That, and the number of people actually using .308 or .30-06 for SD, Clint Eastwood aside, is vanishingly small...

[cas]

For those who talk about killing; that is not the reason for shooting someone.

In the eyes of the law it is. Whether you shoot them with a Gold Dot or bird shot, you tried to kill them.

[jeepnik]

When I carry a short barreled .38 the load depends quite a bit on venue. I generally carry it when I expect to be mostly on foot and in a fairly populated area. For these times, I also carry Glaser rounds. I may be wrong, but I figure what ever happens will be up close and very personal. Glasers hit hard against an unprotected target yet minimize the chance or ricochet.

If for some reason I'm going to have a potential of encountering someone in a vehicle, I usually carry Federal Hydroshock +P. I figure it's a good balance between penetration and expansion.

My .38 short barrels are all fix sighted. There is a slight difference between POI with these two, but that really only comes into play should something past (the mythical) usually expected self defense shooting distance occur.

My wife pretty much always carries a short barreled .38. And it is always loaded with Federal Nyclad HP's. She shoots them well, and the recoil isn't anywhere near what you get with +P ammo. Please don't tell me that anyone can "handle" the recoil of +P if they learn how. It's not a matter of learning, it's what she is comfortable with. She can get off multiple "AIMED" shots faster and more accurately with the Nyclad round than she can with +P stuff.

[Tycer]

For those who talk about killing; that is not the reason for shooting someone.

In the eyes of the law it is. Whether you shoot them with a Gold Dot or bird shot, you tried to kill them.

No sir. The last thing I want is to kill another human. I do want to stop anyone wishing to inflict grave bodily harm or death upon me.

[7.62 Precision]

For those who talk about killing; that is not the reason for shooting someone.

In the eyes of the law it is. Whether you shoot them with a Gold Dot or bird shot, you tried to kill them.

No sir. The last thing I want is to kill another human. I do want to stop anyone wishing to inflict grave bodily harm or death upon me.

Killing another human being is far from the last thing I want. There are plenty of things worse than that.

There are people who have ceased to be human. They have become monsters. Some are intelligent, some are not. Some are obvious, and some can blend in, but they are not human. They are monsters. Fortunately, their body structure is still human, so we know how to kill them. I would feel worse about killing any dog than some of the human monsters I have seen.