Ammo preference for ccw

[rjohns94]

Of the 38+P variety?

[7.62 Precision]

Stick with traditional proven bullet designs, stuff that has been well tested.

Gold Dots and Golden Sabers are examples of good choices for bullets - they work well through clothes. You want 12" of penetration minimum, 16" is better. Flash suppressed powders are nice, especially in a revolver, and go with a reputable manufacturer.

Stay away from gimmicks and designer bullets like Glaser Safety Slugs and stuff like that.

[arjunky]

Haven't tried them on anyone or anything, but I bought some Rem 125 golden saber +p's and Win 130 bonded pdx +p's for the occasion.

Byron

[wvfarrier]

Gold Dots are great. As are winchester talons. Underwood ammo makes some great stuff as well. The 125 grain +p range is a proven round.

[wvfarrier]

Ps-
I've carried everyday for nearly 20 years. One thing I am absolutely faithful about doing is to keep only the first 3 rounds as hp's. I load the rest as hardcast. I figure if the job isn't done by the time I fire the first 3 the bad guy will prolly take cover and penetration is the key at that point

[piller]

Does Grizzly make the Extreme Self Defense in .38 Special? If they do, that would be a great load for close range interpersonal crisis situations. I totally agree with 7.62 about staying away from Glaser or other particle rounds. They have been proven in most cases to give very shallow wounds when the target is wearing heavy outer clothing.

[FWiedner]

Ps-
I've carried everyday for nearly 20 years. One thing I am absolutely faithful about doing is to keep only the first 3 rounds as hp's. I load the rest as hardcast. I figure if the job isn't done by the time I fire the first 3 the bad guy will prolly take cover and penetration is the key at that point

I find statements like this interesting with regard to the selection and order of presentation of loaded ammunition.

I'm curious whether your selection of ammunition and the sequence of your loads based upon research you have done, experience you've had, a current limited inventory in your gun closet, or an idea about what the result of the firing sequence should be?

I don't mix loads, but I've heard that some folks do.

[vancelw]

Speer Gold Dot

[44shooter]

I have Speer Gold Dot Short Barrel for my snubnose. The difference is the SB bullets have a deeper hollow point to compensate for the lower velocity.

[Blaine]

For 38 +Ps, I use a 130 grain Winchester JHP. They have called them several different names. The 130s hit to (about) the same POI as the cheap, truncated tip FMJs that a couple different companies put out in the bulk packs....

[Grizz]

I carry speer gold dots in towns. I tested the golden sabers and they all came apart and had poor penetration in water jug comparisons. that was in the .380 and I haven't bothered with them since.

[Grizz]

For 38 +Ps, I use a 130 grain Winchester JHP. They have called them several different names. The 130s hit to (about) the same POI as the cheap, truncated tip FMJs that a couple different companies put out in the bulk packs....

those truncated cones penetrate very well, my outa-town carry ammo if I switch. better against cats and thru glass, stuff like that. it's my only round for the little mouser.

[MrMurphy]

The short-barrel specific 135 grain Gold Dot performs well at typical SD distances and is specifically made for 2" snubs.

That would be my recommendation in a .38.

[Blaine]

For 38 +Ps, I use a 130 grain Winchester JHP. They have called them several different names. The 130s hit to (about) the same POI as the cheap, truncated tip FMJs that a couple different companies put out in the bulk packs....

those truncated cones penetrate very well, my outa-town carry ammo if I switch. better against cats and thru glass, stuff like that. it's my only round for the little mouser.

I suspected that might be the case..... The +P makes a nastier hole, though.

[horsesoldier03]

I reload my own, yes even defensive rounds. 125 grn SJHP with 4.8 grn of W231.

[86er]

CCI Gold Dot 135 grain +P

[Tycer]

The short-barrel specific 135 grain Gold Dot performs well at typical SD distances and is specifically made for 2" snubs.

That would be my recommendation in a .38.

This is what I carry and I load the same for practice. 135 gr GD over 6gr Unique. This load is NOT for use in weak guns and is higher than all current published data. It is from a Speer manual and happens to match the velocity and POI of the Speer LE 135 Short Barrel(53921) exactly.

[M. M. Wright]

I use 125 grain XTPs in a +P load. Marshall and Sanow's data show this to be the best fight stopper.

[Streetstar]

[

I don't mix loads, but I've heard that some folks do.

I have a friend who loads the first 2 rounds as snake shot --- then the rest wad-cutters

His opinion is he'd rather chase them off than kill them and the mere act of producing a heater and making loud noises with it will get the average punk running the other way (y'know - just kids out havin' fun )
Then the last 4 are for when they dont turn the other way

Not my idea, -- but there are people out there who should know better who prescribe to this theory -- i dont agree with wadcutters either, but i've never been in a civilian gunfight

I would think with only 5 or 6 shots available , every round in that cylinder should count for something

[7.62 Precision]

You are right. People who are looking for a way to shoot people without killing them are on the wrong track.

You cannot predict the mindset of a threat at the moment before or after you shoot him. That punk kid who should run away might suddenly become very motivated to kill you after you shoot him.

We need to have the mindset that we use a firearm to deter a violent criminal (who is in the act of threatening a life) by the act of shooting him in the kill zone until he is no longer a threat.

If we draw and point a gun at a criminal, it should be because what he is doing or clearly about to do justifies deadly force to stop. If he runs away, great. If not you should already be prepared to kill.

If we expect to solve the crisis without having to shoot to kill, then the pistol should not be drawn and pointed.

[Old Ironsights]

...If we draw and point a gun at a criminal, it should be because what he is doing or clearly about to do justifies deadly force to stop. If he runs away, great. If not you should already be prepared to kill.

It should have already happened in your mind, otherwise hesitation is inevitable.

If we expect to solve the crisis without having to shoot to kill, then the pistol should not be drawn and pointed.

^^This^^ +1

[tman]

Another fan of Hardcast for hunting and defense.

[Old Ironsights]

Another fan of Hardcast for hunting and defense.

Over-penetration is NOT your friend in a SD shooting.

If you shoot through the bad guy and hit granny/toddler with the punch through you'd have been better off if the BG shot you.

No way would I use hard cast/solids in any caliber that has even a slight chance of a shoot-through.

[loader]

Glaser Safety Slugs here

[carbluesnake]

For those who talk about killing; that is not the reason for shooting someone. Some people need killing, thats a fact. But we never shoot someone to kill them. We shoot someone because they are doing something that is unacceptable and deserves the use of lethal force. We may shoot them 1,2, or 5 times in an attempt to make them stop doing the thing they deserved being shot for, and if they die, well, too bad. They ought not to have been doing whatever it was that caused them to get shot. We shoot them to stop them, not kill them. I don't think there will be many tears shed over someone who deserved to get a couple center mass.

[Malamute]

I use 125 grain XTPs in a +P load. Marshall and Sanow's data show this to be the best fight stopper.

I wouldn't put a lot of faith in the Marshall and Sanow stats. It's been reviewed and widely discredited.


http://www.firearmstactical.com/marshal ... ancies.htm

[7.62 Precision]

For those who talk about killing; that is not the reason for shooting someone. Some people need killing, thats a fact. But we never shoot someone to kill them.

We shoot to end the threat. We do that by shooting the threat in a way that is most effective to kill the threat. If the threat is stopped without shooting, or without killing, that is great, but we draw to shoot and we shoot to kill. We use restraint and don't shoot or stop shooting when the threat is diminished. If the guy runs, we let him go, and are relieved that we don't have to shoot him. But if we are forced to draw, it should be with the mindset to fire kill shots until the threat is reduced.

Killing is the most effective way to end a threat, and sometimes the only way.

[7.62 Precision]

Glaser Safety Slugs here

I would do some serious research on these cartridges. They are based on a theory (energy dump/hydraulic shock) that has never shown evidence of being valid, though many have tried very hard to prove it.

In real-world shootings, they have proven to create very nasty, very shallow wounds that are not effective in stopping a determined attacker. On the other hand, hitting a wall or barrier with them can tend to crimp then into basically an FMJ that over-penetrates walls.

I bought into the hype on these types of bullets years ago (the idea that they kill well without over-penetration) and then I was working with an organization that had undercover security in a large building around crowds of people, and they were using Glasers. I was making recommendations on their security tactics and SOP, so I looked in depth into the frangible cartridges. What I found was not pretty, and it is upsetting to me that some of these companies still make and market projectiles like these, that obviously don't perform as they advertise.

On the other hand, I guess some of these guys might be true disciples of the theory, so they will follow their faith no matter how much fact they are presented with.

[Malamute]

If you shoot through the bad guy and hit granny/toddler with the punch through you'd have been better off if the BG shot you.

Do we have any case examples of this?

[MrMurphy]

I agree with 7.62 on Glasers, hardcast, etc.


And yes, we do, many times over. NYPD and Chicago PD were two of the absolute last converts from RNL ( in .38) and FMJ (in automatics), being huge bastions of stupidity.

NY Metro PD I think they used to call them, the subway cops. They had enough 'good shoots' where they did indeed, shoot the bad guy, and verily, he went down hard because they placed their bullets correctly. However, they kept shooting good guys, because as their patrols were effectively in a steel tube, there were good guys behind the bad guy just about everywhere, and FMJ sails right through people, often more than one.

So...NY Metro went to hollowpoints. Instances of good guy collateral damage went way down (they're not perfect, but considerably reduced).

The Amadou Diallou shooting of the '90s happened in part because of 1. training and 2. bad ammo with 3. Stupidity on his part.

The Diallou shooters were trained to shoot till the target goes down (as is current practice, typically) since you get some really bullet resistant people at times. They were loaded with FMJ's.

When he stupidly turned in the dark and aimed a cellphone at them after they announced "Police hands up" or words to that effect, with him matching the description of an armed/hostile/rapist type guy, he was standing on some concrete steps. When the first two cops who had a clear shot fired on him perceiving themselves to be in danger, their FMJ rounds began hitting him and the steps and throwing fragments or ricochets back at them and hitting the cops in the legs or whizzing by. This further increased the idea "he's shooting at us" and all the cops opened up.

Since they were shooting FMJ, in the dark, in a hurry, there were 41 shots fired and I think 19 hits. It TOOK 19 hits before he finally fell over, since FMJ mostly pokes holes in things unless it hits the vitals. As police shootings go, they didn't do so bad aside from the fact they (justifiably, in their case) shot the wrong guy.

All four of the shooters got off around 1 mag apiece (anywhere from 10-15 rounds, they all had S&W or Glock 9mm I think) in under five or six seconds.


Sometimes you get other random results, one of my academy instructors has been involved in five shootings (one for sure as the shooter, not sure if he was in the others or just part of the responding unit). His first one an old guy, buck naked took a shot at them with a .308. He ripped his piece out of the holster and got off 3-4 rounds, and being in a hurry with no cover, put the first two into the dirt between him and them. His third round hit the old guy in the nuts, and he went down.

As he's a fairly formidable competitive shooter, hunter and a guy who shoots constantly, yes, he took considerable ribbing for having his only connecting shot hit the guy in the nuts.. The old guy lived, though I think he didn't wish to...

[FOTIS]

I have Speer Gold Dot Short Barrel for my snubnose. The difference is the SB bullets have a deeper hollow point to compensate for the lower velocity.

This ^^^

[Malamute]

I'm in total agreement about using good ammo, reliable expanding preferably. FMJ is pretty dismal stuff. Anyone that's hunted even small game with it much quickly starts to wonder why it ever gains much reputation for so-called stopping power, even in 45 cal. Profoundly underwhelmed is about the only way I can describe my reaction after using 45 auto ball on game. The main focus of the question was how many actual cases do we have where shoot throughs injured or killed inccocents behind the intended target. With all due respect, what you had mentioned wasn't much in the way of cases per se (the plural of anecdotes isnt data), other than the Amadou Diallou case, which wasn't exactly what the question was about. I'm asking how much of a risk it is for civvy shooters (and I hate that term because police aren't military) with shoot throughs causing injury. It isn't specifically about poor ammo, because even very good ammo can shoot through, and what we want in terms of terminal performace will shoot through in some cases. I'm not going to choose a lesser than optimum penetration premium ammo because of that concern, unless someone presents a truly compelling case, which I haven't see so far. I also often carry larger caliber revolvers with Keith loads, but most of my use is in very rural areas, and definitely not in subways etc (unless getting a sandwich in one ).

Not trying to be contrary, but learn, and with concrete examples, rather than commonly accepted concepts. If its for real, lets put solid foundations under them rather than just repeating what we've heard.

[MrMurphy]

Sorry for not having the specifics, but it was very specifically, shoot-throughs by cops injuring innocent bystanders which finally forced NYPD and NY Metro to switch ammo like every other police agency already had.


Statistics and viable info from civilian defensive shootings isn't as commonly available on who did what to who with what in a lot of cases. Shoot-throughs can still happen though with JHP, depending on where the hit occurs. I remember one in Phoenix I think? Where the cop hit the guy in the arm with a .45 Hydrashok which exited and hit a house (exterior wall stopped it).

[7.62 Precision]

Apart from some of the concrete examples given by Mr. Murphy, there are really very few over penetration bystander injuries. Part of this is because a bystander would have to be standing in the bullet's path, so unless there is a tight crowd or a person happens to be in just the right place, a bullet that overpenetrates still has pretty low odds of hitting someone.

My philosophy is that over penetration is one of the last concerns I have with a good, expanding defensive pistol cartridge. If I can get 16" of penetration reliably, I am happy. If an expanding bullet gets 20" of penetration, I am still not overly concerned about over penetration, though it would be something to think about at that point. Some people say that for safety, they want no more than 12" of penetration. To me that is very minimal.

There are a couple things to consider. In many defensive and LE shootings, the criminal has wounds to his forearms. This is because he was holding a weapon in front of his body, and bullets aimed center mass had to travel through a forearm before entering the chest. You might have to shoot through 6" or more of flesh and bone before ever hitting the chest of an assailant.
Also, if I remember right, the force required to punch through human skin from inside out is the same as would be required to penetrate another 10" or so of flesh (I may be wrong on the exact number). The skin stretches way out and then snaps back. This is why bullets so often stop under the skin. This is also why I don't like HPs with a rod in the center - they have shown a tendency to punch through the skin on the other side of the target more easily than normal HPs.
Finally, most expanding pistol bullets, even if they do exit the target, will likely be moving slow enough that they will go to the ground, or do very little damage if they hit a bystander.

On the other hand, I do not like non-expanding bullets for self-defense use in a pistols of reasonable caliber. When you carry non-expanding bullets, you are going to see less damage to the target, and more penetration. Since we have very good expanding bullets available, that still give us very good penetration, I see no reason to carry non-expanding bullets, except in a spare magazine for barrier penetration. When we start using non-expanding bullets, the chances of bystander injury due to over penetration of the target increases quite a bit.

Again, it is dependent on your specific circumstances. If you are carrying a .25 auto, then go buy a pistol that shoots an effective cartridge. If you are carrying a .380, by all means, use FMJs; anything else has a good chance of under-penetration. If you have a reasonable caliber (.38 spc/9mm to .45 ACP) then I would suggest a good, proven HP bullet.

If you are carrying a .45 ACP or .357 on the ranch or in the woods to protect yourself against both human and animal predators, then you may want to consider using non-expanding bullets, since you will get better results on a large animals, and you have a much lower chance of hitting bystanders than if you were carrying in the mall.

Also, we have to understand some of the best HP bullets may not expand as much as 40% of the time. The difference between center-punching a rib and hitting between two ribs can make the difference between a bullet expanding or not expanding. So something to think about is how to limit the chance of hitting a bystander in the case of an over-penetration. This might mean that you could shift your position laterally to move a bystander out of the line of fire, or drop to a knee to fire at an upward angle (Something we would normally try to avoid, since it looks less aggressive). Still, there is no way to really know the exact direction a bullet would travel after going through a target. If there is no time/way to move, then the main thing is to hit the target - you are at a much greater risk of killing a bystander if you miss than if you hit the target.

[Tycer]

Also, we have to understand some of the best HP bullets may not expand as much as 40% of the time. The difference between center-punching a rib and hitting between two ribs can make the difference between a bullet expanding or not expanding. Still, there is no way to really know the exact direction a bullet would travel after going through a target.

No kidding on both these points. I've shot a bunch of Speer 135s into carcasses and a perfect mushroom and straight trajectory only happen on a straight on hit to bone or tissue. Nick a rib and all bets are off on both expansion and trajectory. It's pretty amazing really. I've had a bullet come back out six inches from the entrance after traveling through the body cavity and coming up and around under the skin. Creepy to find a Speer 135 on the ground with a collapsed nose halfway between me and the carcass when we were only fifteen feet apart to start.

[MrMurphy]

Bullets in general do VERY weird things when they hit things. There was a helo pilot in Vietnam who had a 7.62 come through the floor, hit his helmet, rip a flesh wound all the way around his head and bury itself in the other side of his helmet lining. Aside from looking like God gave him a zipper on his head, and needing a haircut repair.....he was effectively uninjured. Scared the stuff out of him but he didn't get more than minor bleeding.

Saw a shooting in 2001 where a guy had eight rounds hit his car from behind. Mistaken identity gang shooting, same model car, wrong target. Two shooters stood off his trunk and fired four rounds each of 9mm and .40. All eight hit the back windshield and due to the heavy auto glass, went everywhere BUT the target. He was hit once in the lower back. I'm guessing it was the .40 as they tend to do better against glass, but at the time we didn't know. He kept trying to get up even after being shot in the back because he didn't even know he was hit. Medics finally showed him one of their bloody gloves to convince him yes, he really WAS shot.

The other 7 threw frag everywhere and he got a lot of minor cuts, but out of 8, only 1 hit.

[loader]

7.62 I have done some real world research on Glasers. Fortunately not against humans but I have shot several animals with them and had them perform admirably. One rather large angry Rottweiler took a 38 through the front chest from about 20 yards and died as instantly as any animal I've ever seen, never took another step. A Doberman /Shepard mix took a 45 in the ribs at 40 yards while he was running past me (lucky hit), he hit the ground nose first and never even twitched. Tried them on whitetail with a .30-06, took an 8 point WV buck from 150 yds hit behind the shoulder and he was DRT. When I field dressed him both his lungs were totally destroyed looked more like liver mush than lung tissue, found the jacket halfway through the far one. No exit wounds on any of them. I don't claim to have expert technical knowledge but I do know what I've seen with my own eyes.

[Old Ironsights]

Apart from some of the concrete examples given by Mr. Murphy, there are really very few over penetration bystander injuries. Part of this is because a bystander would have to be standing in the bullet's path, so unless there is a tight crowd or a person happens to be in just the right place, a bullet that overpenetrates still has pretty low odds of hitting someone.

One of my first "civillian/Duty carry" jobs was at a fun little place on Spenard. You've either been in it or by it. The odds of a shoot-through hitting someone there were through the roof... yet the morons I worked for required .38sp LRN. Guess what I DIDN'T carry...

...If you are carrying a .45 ACP or .357 on the ranch or in the woods to protect yourself against both human and animal predators, then you may want to consider using non-expanding bullets, since you will get better results on a large animals, and you have a much lower chance of hitting bystanders than if you were carrying in the mall...

My "regular" load in my SP101 is a Shot Load followed by Fed Premium 180gr SJHPs. The 180s don't open up an awful lot at 2.5" velocities, but they open up enough, are heavy and I shoot them accurately - more accurately than any 158 or lighter that I've tried.

(The shot load is not for people. It's for snakes &/or snap-shooting a bunny. I'f I'm in a "shoot or die" situation, I'm double-tapping anyway, and I don't think the recipient will care which he got shot with first...)

In my .38 Derringer, I carry a Shot and a Low Flash, Standard Pressure, 158gr LSWCHP. Again, where/why/how I carry that defines the 1st-shot Shot.

[7.62 Precision]

I've had a bullet come back out six inches from the entrance after traveling through the body cavity and coming up and around under the skin. Creepy to find a Speer 135 on the ground with a collapsed nose halfway between me and the carcass when we were only fifteen feet apart to start.

I know a guy who shot a doe with a .45 Colt revolver and a hardcast bullet. He hit the deer high and the bullet followed the ribcage. The bullet exited the same side and struck the ground between his legs.

[7.62 Precision]

7.62 I have done some real world research on Glasers. Fortunately not against humans but I have shot several animals with them and had them perform admirably. One rather large angry Rottweiler took a 38 through the front chest from about 20 yards and died as instantly as any animal I've ever seen, never took another step. A Doberman /Shepard mix took a 45 in the ribs at 40 yards while he was running past me (lucky hit), he hit the ground nose first and never even twitched. Tried them on whitetail with a .30-06, took an 8 point WV buck from 150 yds hit behind the shoulder and he was DRT. When I field dressed him both his lungs were totally destroyed looked more like liver mush than lung tissue, found the jacket halfway through the far one. No exit wounds on any of them. I don't claim to have expert technical knowledge but I do know what I've seen with my own eyes.

Not trying to discount your experience, but two dogs is not a lot of data from which to draw a conclusion. There have been a number of people killed with one shot from Glasers Safety Slugs, too.

Last summer in Nome, I got out of the truck after dark to go in to the camp I was staying in. I had just stepped between the house and a truck parked on the side of the street, where it was pitch black, and a pit bull came straight at me from the other end of the truck, clearly in attack mode. I had a pistol on my belt and a bottle of water in my right hand. As the dog disappeared into the shadow of the truck I gauged his speed, threw the bottle of water and drew my pistol. I heard the bottle connect and the dog yelped and reappeared from the shadow running the other way. From that experience, I could conclude that bottle of water is a good defense against pit bulls. In reality, it was a last ditch effort to blindly defend myself with what I had in my hand. Because it happened to work that time is no reason to consider it a generally good defense.

I know guys who have hunted and killed polar bear with .22s and .223s. I know a guy who killed a bear with a 5.7mm. Despite their success, I would not use two of those calibers on a bear unless I was pretty desperate, and the .223 I would only use with the right bullets, the right circumstances, and serious consideration.

If you do some research on the Glaser Safety Slugs, you will find that they do have a very poor record in real-world shootings, Cop on criminal, civilian on criminal, and criminal on criminal; the results of data gathered shows that those bullets do not work well to stop a threat - definitely not as well as traditional (and cheaper) hollow points. The tendency is to produce horrific, shallow, superficial wounds that may kill, but not quickly, or more likely do not kill at all.

They claim their .380 bullets are better killers than .45 ACP hollow points because they "dump more energy faster" instead of penetrating. That kind of marketing claim alone should call into question the validity of the concept behind these bullets.

You will find that LE agencies pretty much universally avoid the Glasers and similar frangibles. This has not always been the case, and a number police departments bought into the marketing early on, only to back away from them after they learned more about them. People say a lot of things about why LE chose one thing or another, but when it comes to bullets, the choices that LE agencies make are often based on a lot of research and collaboration that you and I could never afford.

I would really recommend that you do some research on these bullets with an open mind before you continue to trust them. Remember, I was one of those guys who recommended them before I researched them.

[loader]

forgive me for stating my obviously inferior views and experience I bow the the master

[7.62 Precision]

I am not trying to cause offense, just to try to help. A lot of people buy into the marketing hype for inferior products without realizing it - I did, and I recommended these bullets to a lot of people for a lot of years. Most people just take what they have been told by gun writers, gunstore counter experts, and the ammunition companies themselves at face value; it seems like you should be able to.

Others really go for the concept and can't see beyond that.

I am not trying to insult you, I am just recommending that you do some research on the bullets you are using before you make a decision to keep using them or not. I am simply concerned about people trusting something for self-defense that might not be very effective.

[loader]

I don't remember asking for your help

[arjunky]

I don't remember asking for your help

Bad day?
Byron

[7.62 Precision]

I don't remember asking for your help

Sorry, I did not mean to offend.

[Tycer]

I don't remember asking for your help

Never take life seriously

[Old Ironsights]

7.62 I have done some real world research on Glasers. Fortunately not against humans but I have shot several animals with them and had them perform admirably. One rather large angry Rottweiler took a 38 through the front chest from about 20 yards and died as instantly as any animal I've ever seen, never took another step. A Doberman /Shepard mix took a 45 in the ribs at 40 yards while he was running past me (lucky hit), he hit the ground nose first and never even twitched. Tried them on whitetail with a .30-06, took an 8 point WV buck from 150 yds hit behind the shoulder and he was DRT. When I field dressed him both his lungs were totally destroyed looked more like liver mush than lung tissue, found the jacket halfway through the far one. No exit wounds on any of them. I don't claim to have expert technical knowledge but I do know what I've seen with my own eyes.

You shot a whitetail with a .30-06 Glaser...

They make a .30-06 Glaser?

Oh, wait... they don't. The only rifle cartridge they make is a .223.

So... what were you seeing with your own eyes? Sure wasn't the results of shooting anything with a .30-06 Glaser.

FWIW, Glasers were designed in 1974 with the initial and sole intent of developing a round that could be fired inside a pressurized tube called an "airplane" without poking holes in it... where most of the intended targets would be wearing little but a shirt, certainly not heavy clothing/coats.

Recent years have improved the design somewhat, but the fact remains that they are not intended to penetrate much at all.

[MrMurphy]

Yup, they either work, or they don't, and do either very spectacularly.

In 9mm I tend to stick to 124/147gr HST or Golden Saber, in .45, 230gr Golden Saber (it's available, which HST is not around here) and in .40 either Gold Dot or HST.

Never plan on the first shot working. Sometimes it does, sometimes it doesn't.


Sometimes even a good hollowpoint in a large caliber in the right spot won't do it if the guy just doesn't want to die.

http://www.policeone.com/patrol-issues/ ... n-the-job/

[Mescalero]

Thanks Malamute,
good read.

[vancelw]

http://www.policeone.com/patrol-issues/ ... n-the-job/

At one point Gramins heard a doctor exclaim, “We may as well stop. Every bag of blood we give him ends up on the floor. This guy’s like Swiss cheese. Why’d that cop have to shoot him so many times!”

Gramins thought, “He just tried to kill me! Where’s that part of it?”

Don't you just love clueless armchair quarterbacks?

They should edit that for the movie..."Why did that cop have to shoot him 47 times?". "Because he only had 47 bullets."