Why no rifles for Turkey hunting?

Bridger · Post by **Bridger** » Thu Dec 19, 2013 1:41 pm

I was reading about this topic on another thread, but rather than to hijack it I decided to start a new one....

Here in Alabama, you can only turkey hunt with a shotgun or centerfire pistol. No rifles allowed. And, evidently it is that way in quite a few other places. My question is, why the heck can't you use a rifle? there has to be some kind of reasoning behind this because on the surface it just seems ridiculous...

harry · Post by **harry** » Thu Dec 19, 2013 1:48 pm

You can hunt turkeys in Wyoming with a 22mag on up.

BrentD · Post by **BrentD** » Thu Dec 19, 2013 2:06 pm

Bridger wrote:I was reading about this topic on another thread, but rather than to hijack it I decided to start a new one....

Here in Alabama, you can only turkey hunt with a shotgun or centerfire pistol. No rifles allowed. And, evidently it is that way in quite a few other places. My question is, why the heck can't you use a rifle? there has to be some kind of reasoning behind this because on the surface it just seems ridiculous...

Because it would be, by far, too easy. Why not leave some challenge in it? After all, it is called turkey HUNTING (contrast with prairie dog SHOOTING) .

harry · Post by **harry** » Thu Dec 19, 2013 2:12 pm

BrentD wrote:
Bridger wrote:I was reading about this topic on another thread, but rather than to hijack it I decided to start a new one....

Here in Alabama, you can only turkey hunt with a shotgun or centerfire pistol. No rifles allowed. And, evidently it is that way in quite a few other places. My question is, why the heck can't you use a rifle? there has to be some kind of reasoning behind this because on the surface it just seems ridiculous...

Because it would be, by far, too easy. Why not leave some challenge in it? After all, it is called turkey HUNTING (contrast with prairie dog SHOOTING) .

We only head shoot them, but yeh its pretty easy out to a couple hundred yards.

TedH · Post by **TedH** » Thu Dec 19, 2013 2:13 pm

It's more of a safety issue. Without fail, every year, there is at least one hunter here in MO that is shot by some idiot who saw "movement in the brush" and thought it was a turkey. I don't know about you, but I'd rather take a butt full of #6 shot, than a .223 bullet.

Rusty · Post by **Rusty** » Thu Dec 19, 2013 2:14 pm

Off the top of my head I'd say safety. At one time you could use a rifle here in Fla. In fact our Gov. at the time Lawton Chiles was said to own a Mini 14 with a folding stock for that purpose.

mav · Post by **mav** » Thu Dec 19, 2013 2:21 pm

You can hunt turkeys in the fall with a rifle in Pennsylvania but not in the spring. I don't think you are allowed to hunt geese with a rifle. I'll bet it's a combination of safety and tradition.

7.62 Precision · Post by **7.62 Precision** » Thu Dec 19, 2013 2:25 pm

From what I understand from living in a couple states that had turkeys, it is for safety. Many states also allow turkey hunting by sitting and calling them in - no stalking. What happens is that one guy is all camoed up sitting at the base of some tree calling turkeys. Another guy is all camoed up stalking toward the sound of a turkey. I guess a lot of hunters also use the normal red paisley handkerchiefs to wrap their calls in, just something people traditionally do.

So when the stalker gets close enough, one or the other see movement, or the caller pulled out a red handkerchief, and someone shoots the other.

So to prevent this, many states disallow turkey hunting with rifles (to make sure you are closer to your target) and some of those states do not allow stalking.

All could be prevented if people just identified their targets.

Traditionally, hunters have been scornful of anyone who shoots a bird with a rifle, and it used to be that there was a strong tradition that it is unsportsmanlike to shoot any bird that was not in the air. A lot of these traditions carry on, so hunters aren't bothered by shotgun-only laws on birds.

44-40 Willy · Post by **44-40 Willy** » Thu Dec 19, 2013 2:50 pm

Shotgun only here, but I've always wanted to shoot one with a muzzleloader.

Mac in Mo · Post by **Mac in Mo** » Thu Dec 19, 2013 3:52 pm

I'm in the same state as Ted, Missouri. I don't have a problem with the rules as they are, but if they would allow handguns and/or .22 rf, I would like that challenge. They could put in a stipulation for head/neck shots only, or not.

Kevin

Twodot · Post by **Twodot** » Thu Dec 19, 2013 4:02 pm

Same here in Montana as in Pennsylvania.
Fish & Game claim safety concerns.
..

Griff · Post by **Griff** » Thu Dec 19, 2013 4:04 pm

TX: "shotguns are the only legal firearm that may be used to hunt Eastern turkey during the spring Eastern turkey season (see County Listing). Rifles and handguns may not be used to hunt Eastern turkey."

So I assume for the fall season rifles are allowed.

shaman · Post by **shaman** » Thu Dec 19, 2013 4:20 pm

Why?
It's funny, but I was asking that question over at the Turkey and Turkey Hunting Forum a year or two ago, and most folks were vehemently opposed. Some of it was because of safety. A lot of it was believing that it was not sporting

You have to remember: Turkey hunters have embraced the constraints of the modern season probably more than any other hunting group. Folks truly believe that 1) the rules were put there to protect the turkeys 2) you're mucking with the sport if you venture too far off the righteous path. Folks get downright vituperative if you start bringing up blinds, decoys, etc. I've been in the middle of some real fights.

You also have to remember that back before the great hiatus and the advent of the modern seasons, the preferred weapon was a rifle. Modern folk link that all with shooting them out of roosts (which was done) and baiting (which was done) and all sorts of other stuff you can't do anymore. However, a rifle like the 32-20 was ideal for turkey hunting back in the day.

I floated the idea on that forum of using a 38 special target load, and I got slammed. No, I wasn't suggesting folks switch to an illegal firearm. No, I wasn't going to randomly take potshots at turkeys at 200 yards. My point was that it just seemed stupid to go toting a big 12 GA around, when most birds I take have been called inside 20 yards, and a little 38 wadcutter with a few grains of Titegroup would quickly and cheaply dispatch the bird. Heresy!

Okay, I've repented. But I still say it would be nice to shoot turkey with a 357 Mag or a 22 Mag and be done with it. Folks are shooting $7 a round loads and buying $100 choke tubes and the recoil of a 3.5 incher is right up there with a 416 Rigby. I once shot a bird in April, and I was still feeling my shoulder clear to Labor Day! It hardly seems appropriate for a 20 lb bird.

Pete44ru · Post by **Pete44ru** » Thu Dec 19, 2013 4:29 pm

TedH wrote:
It's more of a safety issue.

Without fail, every year, there is at least one hunter here in MO that is shot by some idiot who saw "movement in the brush" and thought it was a turkey.

Yep - My state not only limits hunters to shotguns, it also prohibits stalking. (AKA: calling only)

Each hunter with a turkey permit MUST only remain stationary, except when travelling to/from their vehicle - AND "must" carry/have a turkey call of some kind (even if a hunter calls with theor mouth only) on their person.

(Spring Turkey Season, here - the only turkey season - is at a time that no other seasons are open, save varmints)

.

RIHMFIRE · Post by **RIHMFIRE** » Thu Dec 19, 2013 4:48 pm

Florida Wildlife Commision took a pole of hunters in florida...
and we elected to use shotguns and muzzleloading shotguns,
using shot no larger than No. 2. ,Bows and crossbows also may be used on
Wildlife Management Areas.....for obvious reasons..safety..

Private land you can use rifles

Only gobblers and bearded turkeys may be taken.
The daily bag limitis one turkey, and the season limit is two.
Baiting is against the law, but using decoys is allowed.

El Chivo · Post by **El Chivo** » Thu Dec 19, 2013 4:50 pm

California does allow an air rifle, .20 cal and up.

I bet this wasn't intended, but there are 44 caliber air rifles now, and it would be legal to use one.

shaman · Post by **shaman** » Thu Dec 19, 2013 4:52 pm

Safety is probably not a real issue, but safety concerns probably drive the decision.

In truth, if you took a 38 target load and shot it at a turkey at, say 20 yards, with a lever 357 with iron sights the trajectory of the bullet would be such that it'd be in the dirt somewhere between 120 and 150 yards. That's assuming it did not hit anything along the way. Now, if you further limited this to hunting only on private land, I think you could be completely safe hunting turkey this way.

However, if you used a 22 Magnum or a full-house 357 Mag load, that same bullet would travel a considerably longer distance. In short, if you allowed a reasonable number of cartridges, I can see where public hunting grounds could get dicey in the spring.

JerryB · Post by **JerryB** » Thu Dec 19, 2013 6:20 pm

Thirty some years ago a large group of us black powder traditional muzzle loaders tried to get Arkansas to let us use our rifles. The fall turkey season is open during muzzle loading rifle deer season, after a few hearings they just said a flat NO, no reason just NO.

horsesoldier03 · Post by **horsesoldier03** » Thu Dec 19, 2013 6:24 pm

IMO, you cant really use a shotgun for a TURKEY SHOOT! I guess you could if you wanted to confuse the guy doing the score cards!

Pete44ru · Post by **Pete44ru** » Thu Dec 19, 2013 6:50 pm

.

You sure can........... By bud & I used to regularly enter "rifle" turkey shoots ("Chicken Shoot" in Maine) with our rifle-sighted 12 (his) & 20 (mine) gauge Ithaca Model 37 Deerslayers - until the shoot organizer(s) suddenly changed the rules to "rifles only", after they saw that we regulary finished 1, 2......

.

Pisgah · Post by **Pisgah** » Thu Dec 19, 2013 8:07 pm

TedH wrote:It's more of a safety issue. Without fail, every year, there is at least one hunter here in MO that is shot by some idiot who saw "movement in the brush" and thought it was a turkey. I don't know about you, but I'd rather take a butt full of #6 shot, than a .223 bullet.

Here in SC, we could use rifles for a while. Then, years ago, some moron got shot in the head, right here in my county, while wearing a "turkey costume" he had made up, featuring a turkey-tail headdress, and trying to sneak up on a gobbler on his hands and knees. It ain't no joke, and it pays to remember -- there are idiots in the woods.

Pisgah · Post by **Pisgah** » Thu Dec 19, 2013 8:11 pm

horsesoldier03 wrote:IMO, you cant really use a shotgun for a TURKEY SHOOT! I guess you could if you wanted to confuse the guy doing the score cards!

Around here, turkey shoots require a shotgun -- and they supply the shells. It all comes down to a tight choke, a good eye, and a steady hand.

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Thu Dec 19, 2013 8:12 pm

.410 Slug or double ball buck. No pellets to dig out... and you can use a levergun...

Mainehunter · Post by **Mainehunter** » Thu Dec 19, 2013 8:58 pm

Up here in Maine it's shot gun only in spring and fall... AND I wish they change it to rifle as well!

They're becoming a big problem up here in regards to vehicle accidents and deer ticks. There are soooo many of them.... all over the place.

Mainehunter

Bridger · Post by **Bridger** » Thu Dec 19, 2013 9:32 pm

I guess I can understand the safety thing...but I still think on private land it should be legal at least. What I have a hard time with is the "sporting" issue or whatever that another poster mentioned. I really don't like anybody telling me I have to do anything just because it's the sporting way. I guess that's because I have done way more, and continue to do more, trapping than hunting, and when it comes down to it sporting = more challenging= less money in my pocket. But, that's just me I understand.

Pete44ru · Post by **Pete44ru** » Thu Dec 19, 2013 9:34 pm

.

No lie, Mainehunter - last year, while deer hunting in Central Maine, we went to town for some lunch, but stopped when we came across a flock of turkeys in a roadside pasture.

We counted 45 mixed birds within 25 yards of the rud (road

) ! ! !

.

Don McDowell · Post by **Don McDowell** » Thu Dec 19, 2013 10:12 pm

Bunch more sporting waiting for a turkey to hold his head still so you can snap it off with a 223 , than plastering him with 2 oz of #6 shot at 30 yds...
So it has to be the safety thing.
We've been able to use rifles here since the mid 1960's, and a few years ago they made allowances for centerfire handguns.

BenT · Post by **BenT** » Fri Dec 20, 2013 8:12 am

It is just a basic hunting concept of "Fair Chase". It is hunting not harvesting ,sniping a turkey at a 150 yards isn't that much of a hunt. Neither is throwing out an old mattress spring and corn. But with that said in Wisconsin you can use a bow to hunt , because once again it has that fair chase component. I do like the idea of using a handgun, that would be fair chase. ....................O.K. definitely in on the handgun, 327 Federal would do the trick.

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Fri Dec 20, 2013 8:16 am

Don McDowell wrote:Bunch more sporting waiting for a turkey to hold his head still so you can snap it off with a 223 , than plastering him with 2 oz of #6 shot at 30 yds...
So it has to be the safety thing.
We've been able to use rifles here since the mid 1960's, and a few years ago they made allowances for centerfire handguns.

Hey, cool. A bird I can actually hunt with my Drilling without having it confiscated for "possession of a rifle"... Gonna have to look into that.

cas · Post by **cas** » Fri Dec 20, 2013 8:57 am

While there have been times I've questioned not being able to use a rifle, I think it sure would be a lot easier. With a shotgun I have to get them in to say 40 yards. With a rifle I could easily hit them out past 400 yards. Considering for every one I see in the woods, I probably see two dozen out in a field, it certainly would be a whole lot easier. Might still be fun a time or two, but not the same as calling them in. Killing turkey vs hunting turkey.

To add, I've never had any issues deer hunting (slugs and rifles). But I have been shot at/over twice turkey hunting. So maybe shotgun only isn't such a bad thing.

Don McDowell · Post by **Don McDowell** » Fri Dec 20, 2013 9:38 am

Old Ironsights wrote:
Don McDowell wrote:Bunch more sporting waiting for a turkey to hold his head still so you can snap it off with a 223 , than plastering him with 2 oz of #6 shot at 30 yds...
So it has to be the safety thing.
We've been able to use rifles here since the mid 1960's, and a few years ago they made allowances for centerfire handguns.
Hey, cool. A bird I can actually hunt with my Drilling without having it confiscated for "possession of a rifle"... Gonna have to look into that.

Absolutely, when they first implemented the rifles legal here, there were a ton of those Savage 24's sold.
Anybody thinking you're going to just go blast a turkey with a rifle or handgun and head home are going to be in for a shock if they plan on eating any of the stringy dang thing. Shot placement gets pretty critical (head or neck only) if you plan on having much left to eat.

Mescalero · Post by **Mescalero** » Fri Dec 20, 2013 10:04 am

.22Mag head shot,
stuff body cavity with pinon nuts,
roast,
eat.

Canuck Bob · Post by **Canuck Bob** » Fri Dec 20, 2013 10:27 am

Never grew up around wild turkeys though they are spreading in Canada. Safety sure is an issue. As we get close to the cities shotgun only areas keep guys from launching 300 Mag stuff around country school buses. We can't carry handguns in the field. However, except for the depression, it was considered unsporting by many folks up here to shoot waterfowl with a rifle or on the water. Shooting Prairie Chickens with a 22 is still a right of passage for a country kid around here.

I saw my first wild turkey and opossum in southern Ontario visiting family awhile ago. Hunting turkey looks like a very good sport. Everyone warned me about them doing a real pile of damage to a grill. I laughed at that until a flock crossed my nose one night. Those Toms are big! The possums struck me as kinda nasty looking little flea bags, maybe I'm wrong.

harry · Post by **harry** » Fri Dec 20, 2013 10:31 am

Well Don I would say that the only way most of the guys commenting on the "rifle is to easy" have never tried to shoot a turkey in the head and would just take a body shot. I think shooting a turkey at less than 50 yards with the 2 oz load of #4 is the easyest way to take a bird.

Mescalero · Post by **Mescalero** » Fri Dec 20, 2013 10:40 am

Harry,
Although it has been many years since I have done it.
I remember having to really wait for the right moment to get a head shot.

Don McDowell · Post by **Don McDowell** » Fri Dec 20, 2013 10:59 am

harry wrote:Well Don I would say that the only way most of the guys commenting on the "rifle is to easy" have never tried to shoot a turkey in the head and would just take a body shot. I think shooting a turkey at less than 50 yards with the 2 oz load of #4 is the easyest way to take a bird.

Yessir..
Had a fella from Delaware up elk hunting, and we were listening to a bull bugle in the distance. He said that's a neat sound, but there's nothing more exciting than a tom turkey on the strut and coming in gobbling. I told him when a tomturkey can whiz on his chin, while bugling and busting pinetrees as big as your arm in two, let me know, I want to see one of those..

cas · Post by **cas** » Fri Dec 20, 2013 1:30 pm

I've eaten turkey that was shot in the body with a 222. It wasn't Thanksgiving diner pretty, but there wasn't much damage. Like anything else, bullet selection matters.

7.62 Precision · Post by **7.62 Precision** » Fri Dec 20, 2013 2:22 pm

Canuck Bob wrote:As we get close to the cities shotgun only areas keep guys from launching 300 Mag stuff around country school buses.

Shotgun only areas were established due to people making assumptions without really thinking about things or doing realistic tests.

Most people on this forum are probably expereinced enough to know how differently rifle bullets and shotgun slugs act if they sit down and think about it.

The first tests done to see how much "safer" shotguns were in populated areas involved shooting a .30-06 at the angle for maximum range, and a shotgun slug at the same angle. Of course, the .30-06 went farther, therefore, it was deemed "safer."

A couple years ago there was a comprehensive test done at Aberdeen for the state of Pennsylvania that was was actually realistic. They recognized that hunters were not firing their weapons at high angles into the air, so they tested at more normal hunting angles. What they found was that in normal hunting conditions, especially in Eastern US terrain (where most shotgun-only restrictions are) shotgun slugs tended to travel much farther than rifle bullets.

When a rifle bullet strikes anything that upsets it, glancing off of a tree trunk, hitting small brush, or even tall grass, it tends to go quickly to the ground. If it hits the ground, it tends to stay there, or bounce up spinning and fall back down a few feet from its first impact. Even if it hits a rock and ricochets, it is generally a high-angle trajectory with velocity bleeding off fast, so it is unlikely to do any damage when it lands.

On the other hand, a slug, which is heavy and has a totally different weight distribution, tends to hit the ground, bounce back into the air at a lower angle, and just keep on going with little velocity loss. As a slug looses velocity, it retains its ability to kill, since it is much heavier. Hitting brush or glancing off of a tree trunk, a slug tends to stay on the air.

The tests proved that in hunting use, slugs will normally travel farther than rifle bullets, and therefore rifles could actually be considered better for hunting in built-up areas.

It seems unlikely that the test will actually result in any change in policy. The trend in Eastern states especially is for hunting and firearm restrictions to never be relaxed. The concept of shotgun hunting being safer is also ingrained in people's minds, and those I have spoken with that live in shotgun-only areas seem unwilling to accept anything else. It has become a cultural thing among hunters, to the point that many hunters from restrictive states will not use a rifle for hunting, even where allowed. When I lived in Upstate NY, where rifles could be used, I was the only person I knew that ever hunted with a rifle, and it really upset other hunters. They truly believed that a shotgun was superior in every way. They felt that I was being dangerously negligent in hunting with a rifle, and also that I was trying to come in from Alaska and change the way they hunted.

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Fri Dec 20, 2013 4:18 pm

It took 3 years of Political battles with the Shotgun-Only Fudds in Indiana to get pistol caliber carbines "allowed", even when it was demonstrably shown that most tube fed guns are more safe" than these new rifled slug throwers " with sabot slugs.

A .72 cal rifle is a .72 cal rifle, even if the action says 12ga...

Rusty · Post by **Rusty** » Fri Dec 20, 2013 4:43 pm

There was a fellow that lived in south central Fla. named Tom Gaskins. He was about the most famous turkey hunter around and he even made his own turkey calls which were sold by Cabelas at one time.
When Tom went turkey hunting he went barefoot, in khaki pants and a plaid shirt. Even back in the 60's he used to say it was too dangerous to hunt turkey in camo.

44shooter · Post by **44shooter** » Sat Dec 21, 2013 6:58 pm

I don't think it is about safety at all. It is to limit the number of turkeys killed. They can only be taken with archery or shotguns in NC. Either can kill you dead if mistakenly shot.

State wildlife commissions didn't go through a nationwide reintroduction program to have morons spotting a tom in a field on his way home from a haircut, go home and get his 270 and blast him through the chest. They do that with deer, they would do it with turkeys. The shotgun limits the range and pretty much requires you to call or decoy.

FTR I don't have a problem with hunting turkey with rifles, pistols or whatever where legally practiced.

I agree that 12 gauge turkey loads kick harder in my Rem 870 than any hunting rifle I have ever shot. Always thought you could do fine with a high brass field load like Remington Long Range. Never patterned them to see but I have killed squirrels mighty far with loads like that.

shaman · Post by **shaman** » Sun Dec 22, 2013 8:31 am

What makes turkey hunting dangerous is that

a) Most of the morbidity comes from mistaken-for-game incidents. That is, somebody shoots someone at close range thinking they were a turkey.
b) Most of the shooters are experienced turkey hunters. These aren't greenhorns doing the work.

I've been at it since the early 80's, and I can't say I've ever hallucinated a turkey that wasn't there. However, the studies I've seen showed the average number of years hunting of the shooter was around 8 seasons, whereas the perpetrator in deer hunting accidents was something like 2-3 seasons. With turkey hunters, the problem is that somebody sees a flash of red, white, or blue and their brain manufactures a whole turkey out of it. In reality it is the red flashing on a sock or the back of somebody's t-shirt sticking out at the neck.

Folks get all bent out of shape when I write about this. It can't happen to them. They are too experienced to make such a stupid mistake, but the truth is it's those kind of guys who are doing the shooting. This is a situation where the shoot-ees need to be defensive.

a) No red, white or blue clothing-- no red flashings on socks. No white t-shirts, no blue jeans
b) Folks need to be aware of who's out there and announce themselves to hunters that come into their area.
c) Folks need to plan their hunts so one guy doesn't end up hunting another.
d) Wear orange when on the move, especially on public land.

As to the anti-stalking rules in some states, I'm not sure they're going to be effective. They are not realistic. What I mean is this. Let say you're in PA, which has an anti-stalking rule. You hear a gobbler 300 yards off at first light. Now, what are you going to do. The rule says you sit your butt down and call. The reality is you are going to manuever and get into a good spot to call before you set up. I also get into situations where turkeys wander off, and I have to get up and do an end-around, sometimes walking a mile or more to set up calling to them from another spot along their intended path. Is that stalking? Who's going to make that determination? My point is that it is stupid and counterproductive to stalk a gobbler in the spring woods, but that is a matter of education not a matter of law enforcement. I also doubt many hunters have ever been picked up for stalking turkeys. I've certainly never met one.

7.62 Precision · Post by **7.62 Precision** » Sun Dec 22, 2013 11:05 am

shaman wrote:With turkey hunters, the problem is that somebody sees a flash of red, white, or blue and their brain manufactures a whole turkey out of it. In reality it is the red flashing on a sock or the back of somebody's t-shirt sticking out at the neck.

Folks get all bent out of shape when I write about this. It can't happen to them. They are too experienced to make such a stupid mistake, but the truth is it's those kind of guys who are doing the shooting. This is a situation where the shoot-ees need to be defensive.

Experienced or inexperienced, our brains all work the same way. First, for efficiency, our brains pick up pieces of the picture and fill in the rest. For example, a few small triangles scattered on a page can make us see a star. I use this tendency in graphic design all of the time.

Second, our brains see what we are looking for. That is why people hit motorcycles all the time when they would not have it a car - they are looking for a car, so they never "saw" the motorcycle. They saw it, of course, but did not process it as something to avoid. I watched a car once roll up to a light at about 5 mph and knock over the motorcycle that was stopped at the light.

I was once sleeping in the bustle rack of a Bradley on a screen line with my CVC helmet half on. We were a couple days into the exercise with little sleep. The driver woke me up and said, "Look right there!" I looked through his night vision goggles, and sure enough, there was a kneeling infantryman with a helmet, ruck, and rifle out in front of us. I quietly woke the rest of the crew and alerted the other vehicle in our section. The guys in my crew were keeping an eye on the guy, who had to be OPFOR, and Platoon SGT looked, and sure enough, he was just kneeling out there, clear as could be. I looked again and said, "Hold on, that guy has to be 50 feet tall!" everyone else looked again, and sure enough, it was a tree.

JB · Post by JB » Sun Dec 22, 2013 8:57 pm

It's currently legal in WV, but they've talked about making it illegal for safety issues. Far too many idiots taking shots at anything that sounds like a turkey.

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Sun Dec 22, 2013 10:00 pm

shaman wrote:Okay, I've repented. But I still say it would be nice to shoot turkey with a 357 Mag or a 22 Mag and be done with it. Folks are shooting $7 a round loads and buying $100 choke tubes and the recoil of a 3.5 incher is right up there with a 416 Rigby. I once shot a bird in April, and I was still feeling my shoulder clear to Labor Day! It hardly seems appropriate for a 20 lb bird.

...but it's more 'sporting' with the shotguns...

The best way to harvest game, you see, is to do it in a way that reduces the chance of a humane kill, and increases the chance of wounding, escaped game, which will experience pain and fright, and wind up dying later on. I know I feel far more 'sporting' and manly when I hunt that way. Sarcasm aside, I'm sure there are specific loads and shot placements with anything from a 10 gauge shotgun to a 17 HMR that would be humane, and ones that wouldn't, but to me, aside from safety to self and fellow hunters or other humans, the next most important concern is a humane kill, and I remain skeptical that a shotgun is by definition more humane for killing a turkey, than a head-shot with a 22 Hornet or 32-20 (or 338 Lapua, for that matter).

As to safety for other humans, I can see the argument for shotguns, much like in Indiana for deer season they wouldn't allow "rifles" until a specific wording was come up with that limited the rifles used to those with a similar trajectory to a saboted shotgun slug.

Of course the "anti-gun lobby" isn't the only irrational bunch out there though - the "handgun-hunting lobby" dug in its heels and you can still legally hunt deer in Indiana with a 7mm Remington Magnum, as long as the firearm has a 14" barrel instead of a 16" one, and lacks a shoulder-stock. I guess the lack of a shoulder-stock must so enhance shot placement that misses are less likely, and in the rare event the target is missed, removing those two inches of barrel reduces the velocity so much that the bullet doesn't travel nearly as far as if shot from a rifle...

6pt-sika · Post by **6pt-sika** » Sun Dec 22, 2013 11:03 pm

Virginia is shotguns only in the spring no shot larger then #4 I believe and no smaller then #6 I think . We can however use a rifle in the fall .

About the only other stipulation I remmember is no hens in the spring , seems to me we can kill hens in the fall . But out fall season has been drastically reduced . I think a couple weeks around ML season in the fall and thanksgiving day . Sring season here is about a month half of arpil and half of may .

I used to pursue turkeys quite a bit , but lost intrest about 15 years ago . I would however like to kill ONE with my grnadfathers old W&C Scott 10 gauge .

6pt-sika · Post by **6pt-sika** » Sun Dec 22, 2013 11:14 pm

Good many folks around here use turkey dogs in the fall .

The idea behind this is you find a flock and send the dog in to bust them up . The dog comes back and you go close to where you busted them and try to call them back in .

I have a cousin that has what we refer to as dropper dogs half pointer and half setter . Think he has and old dog and a young one he's still working with . Also a number of guys around here have Boykin Spaniels . Boykin's were derived in South Carolina a number of years back as retrievers for dove and ducks . Then later they were started to be used for fall turkey as well as upland flushing dogs . I've even known of a couple of them that were fair to middlin pointing dogs on quail and pen raised birds .

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Mon Dec 23, 2013 8:37 am

6pt-sika wrote:Good many folks around here use turkey dogs in the fall .

The idea behind this is you find a flock and send the dog in to bust them up . The dog comes back and you go close to where you busted them and try to call them back in .

I have a cousin that has what we refer to as dropper dogs half pointer and half setter . Think he has and old dog and a young one he's still working with . Also a number of guys around here have Boykin Spaniels . Boykin's were derived in South Carolina a number of years back as retrievers for dove and ducks . Then later they were started to be used for fall turkey as well as upland flushing dogs . I've even known of a couple of them that were fair to middlin pointing dogs on quail and pen raised birds .

I once hunted turkeys with rockets...

No, really. I had a 50x50 net launched by gunpowder launched "rockets" that entrapped a whole flock.

Admittedly, I and my compadres didn't actually kill & eat said flock, preferring to fight each animal individually and stuff them into cardboard cat... err... turkey carriers for relocation, but it was still a Hoot...

JB · Post by JB » Mon Dec 23, 2013 8:40 am

AJMD429 wrote: - the "handgun-hunting lobby" dug in its heels and you can still legally hunt deer in Indiana with a 7mm Remington Magnum, as long as the firearm has a 14" barrel instead of a 16" one, and lacks a shoulder-stock. I guess the lack of a shoulder-stock must so enhance shot placement that misses are less likely, and in the rare event the target is missed, removing those two inches of barrel reduces the velocity so much that the bullet doesn't travel nearly as far as if shot from a rifle...

Your right about the velocity, but missing the point on the shoulder stock. The stock would make it easier to accidentally shoot someone. With the lack of stock, it's more likely you'll miss the poor sap that you mistake for a deer!

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Mon Dec 23, 2013 8:45 am

JB wrote:
AJMD429 wrote: - the "handgun-hunting lobby" dug in its heels and you can still legally hunt deer in Indiana with a 7mm Remington Magnum, as long as the firearm has a 14" barrel instead of a 16" one, and lacks a shoulder-stock. I guess the lack of a shoulder-stock must so enhance shot placement that misses are less likely, and in the rare event the target is missed, removing those two inches of barrel reduces the velocity so much that the bullet doesn't travel nearly as far as if shot from a rifle...
Your right about the velocity, but missing the point on the shoulder stock. The stock would make it easier to accidentally shoot someone. With the lack of stock, it's more likely you'll miss the poor sap that you mistake for a deer!

Note from Tonto:

"speak for yourself White Man"... "Do you know how hard it is to mine/smelt/cast Silver so Kemosabe can continually shoot guns out of hands? To use modern phrase... "Meh."