OT - TC Hawken help

kimwcook · Post by **kimwcook** » Thu Mar 27, 2008 5:53 am

Griff's 1851 thread got me thinking about my TC Hawken in 54 cal. I bought it new about five years ago and I've had inconsistent ignition and a hard time inserting patched balls after about the first or second shot without cleaning. It's a pain.

I'm using .530 lead balls with .010 patches lubed with TC butter lube. I've changed the nipples to, I believe, Hotshots. I bought a musket nipple but it throws the geometry of the hammer off and it won't hit the cap flat so I had to remove it.

After loading and trying to fire it, if it doesn't go off, after waiting 15-20 seconds, I take the nipple off, pour in some black powder, re-insert the nipple, cap it and it'll fire.

This last winter I took the nipple off and using a Dremel with a round burr I smooth out the turn in the snail a little. I didn't hog it out and I need if anythings changed.

Anyone else with like problems or solutions?

Post by **Hobie** » Thu Mar 27, 2008 6:44 am

I've never seen a TC with that problem. CVA, Traditions, even those Lymans made in Spain (IIRC) but never a TC. However, the problem is likely the same.

Did you unbreech the gun to get at the channel or did you just remove the nipple to do so? I ask because more than likely the breech plug wasn't correctly fitted and is partially blocking the flash channel. You would likely have noticed that if you unbreeched the gun.

BP is the easiest to ignite, if you're using subs then that will only exacerbate your problem. Most guns with such will only require BP and then function without apparent problems.

Rusty · Post by **Rusty** » Thu Mar 27, 2008 8:25 am

You said you cleaned the "snail?" The TC should have a patent breach.

I'm with Hobie TC is about the most reliable ML out there. Did you buy it new? I'm wondering if something could have gotten down the bore and might be partially blocking the flash hole.
I had a flashlight that had a very small bulb that I could put down the bore and see past to inspect the bore of a muzzleloader. If you can come up with something like that to let you see down the bore I'd give it a good inspection. If that doesn't turn up something you might have to pull the breach plug.

homefront · Post by **homefront** » Thu Mar 27, 2008 8:34 am

I've never had an ignition problem with mine, but Hobie might be on the right track.
My batched balls are stiff to start in as well, and get tougher to drive with each shot. Chuck Dixon told me, in his opinion, a swab between every shot is a must. I usually run a patch wet with Butch's (for black powder), followed by a quick dry one, every 3rd or 4th shot. Using pre-lubed patches helps, too.
Something to try if you have the time is hand lapping the barrel.

C. Cash · Post by **C. Cash** » Thu Mar 27, 2008 9:05 am

I would recommend Lehigh Valley Lube as I had good luck with it as have many others. Unfortunately, they stopped making it. It's supposed to be back under the label Shannandoah Valley Lube soon. You get very little fouling and usually don't have to wipe between shots unless your patch/ball combo is really tight,.....when using it with real BP(Goex) that is. A good lube can prevent misfires in that it will minimize the fouling left behind, which in turn leads to the fact that you won't have to swab as much, or at all, as each swab will push more junk toward where the flash comes into the barrel and stops proper ignition. Perhaps T/C could help you if it is a physical problem with the flash channel...unusual. Could also be rust in the channel but it would be showing up on your patches when you clean it. The only way to clean the T/C channel properly is to get a powerful flush action going through channel....barrel breech submerged in a bucket/can of water and a good tight patch fit pumping the water in and out, using brisk strokes. Pipe cleaners and brushes won't make the trip through the flash channel because of the angles, so the above method is what must be done. Stuff you probably already knew. That's about all I can think of and wish I could be of more help.

ScottT · Post by **ScottT** » Thu Mar 27, 2008 9:14 am

This is a timely topic. I have never had difficulty getting my TCs to go off. Flint or caplock, they seem to have no difficulty.

I wonder what the inside of the powder chamber looks like?

I just got a call from a friend who wants me to go hunt mule deer in New Mexico with a front stuffer this October and I jumped at the chance! My .58 TC Big Bore will make the trip. That is the deer killingest gun I own. I have never used anything but round balls in it, but it is a hammer with 90gr of FFG!

kimwcook · Post by **kimwcook** » Thu Mar 27, 2008 9:18 am

I only shoot black powder, no substitutes.

I bought the rifle new, had the problem from the beginning if I recollect.

I haven't unbreeched the bbl. Probably the next step.

When I say I cleaned the snail I mean I pulled the nipple and cleaned under it towards the bbl.

I probably should send it back to TC and have them look at it. Just wanted to make sure it wasn't something I was missing and didn't bother them needlessly. Plus put egg on my face.

Another option is to contact TC through the net and see what they have to say.

Thanks guys.

ScottT · Post by **ScottT** » Thu Mar 27, 2008 9:23 am

I would send the gun to TC. Their turnaround is very quick and even the best manufacturer gets something wrong from time to time.

Good luck with this and let us know how it turns out.

kimwcook · Post by **kimwcook** » Thu Mar 27, 2008 9:30 am

I believe I've been using 100 grns of Goex FFG w/round ball. It'll push you around a little bit.

PaperPatch · Post by **PaperPatch** » Thu Mar 27, 2008 9:31 am

I once had a batch of lame caps that brought me similar grief.

???

Good luck

deerwhacker444 · Post by **deerwhacker444** » Thu Mar 27, 2008 10:15 am

I used to shoot BP matches in College and a few things come to mind. Some barrels will foul badly, some will not. I had a Lyman Great Plains that I shot comp. with that could go all day without cleaning. (I cleaned after every shot thou just for consistency). My TC Omega MUST be cleaned after every shot, otherwise it will be 4"-6" off target on the following shot. I have a Remington ML that shoots best when it's absolutely Filthy. It all depends upon the barrel and what type of projectiles you're shooting.

When I was shooting a bunch, I made a concoction from 1 part Rubbing Alcohol (highest % you can get) 1 part Hydrogen Peroxide and 1/2 part Murphy's Oil Soap. I got this from the ol'timers who swore by the stuff. I used this as a cleaner between shots and as a patch lube during my matches. It worked wonderfully, although I would use something different for hunting situations as this lube will tend to evaporate over time. After shooting, I would clean out the barrel with this stuff till I could get it home for a deep cleaning. It cuts BP fouling with ease and isn't offensive to work with.

I would switch to RWS caps. I forgot which size, but at the time they were the hottest cap on the market. RWS caps could be run under water and still go off.

I'm not sure how much gunsmithing you want to do, but I drilled out the "snail" on my rifles to something better than a set screw. So if (It does happen) I forgot to put powder under the ball I could still get enough powder in there to blow out the ball. Another trick some guys used was to drill a very small hole, something along the lines of a 1/64 hole in the snail to "vent" the chamber and prevent a pressure build up. In theory, this supposedly made it easier for the spark to make its way down thru the drum to the powder with a minimal loss of energy.

Lubricant down in the flash hole will also kill ignition. I'm sure you've thought of this but it just comes to mind.

You could also drop a few grains of FFFG or FFFFG down the barrel first before the main charge and see if that makes a difference. If you have weak caps that might make it go off better.

Pete44ru · Post by **Pete44ru** » Thu Mar 27, 2008 10:43 am

I would try a slightly thinner patch material - although Minie' ball-type T/C Maxi-Hunter slugs hold better luck for me.

The T/C patent breech's powder chamber looks like a 1/3 bore-sized hole, drilled from the direction of the muzzle, about 3/4" deep - with the flash hole leading off to the nipple from there. The loose powder charge sits partially in this chamber, awaiting ignition. It's also why they're a PITA, after the powder's been compacted by ball seating, to clean/dig out with a worm when the powder's gotten wet, etc.

Sometimes the lost wax/sand casting is a little rough on the inside, and can cause unseen fouling to build up & solidify - blocking the spark.
The roughness can also pick up lint from a cleaning implement, like a patch or pipe cleaner - likewise blocking the flash hole.

The first cap burns out the blockage, clearing the flash hole, but is extinguished & doesn't reach/ignite the main charge - which is why firing a 2nd cap or a small priming charge under the 2nd cap does.

Don McDowell · Post by **Don McDowell** » Thu Mar 27, 2008 10:53 am

If that's happening on your first shot, sounds like you have oil settled into the snail. try dumping about 10 grs of powder down the bore , snapping a couple of caps and fouling the thing out.
If you go up to a .015 or thicker patch you'll likely see the fouling go down and the accuracy go up. Going up to 535 balls will likely help, but those .010 patches are pretty thin and aren't doing you any great favors.
Drop the charge to 55 grs and you should be able to shoot 2 moa or better groups at 100 when you find the right patch and ball combiation.

deerwhacker444 · Post by **deerwhacker444** » Thu Mar 27, 2008 11:09 am

Don McDowell wrote: If you go up to a .015 or thicker patch you'll likely see the fouling go down and the accuracy go up.

+1....Good advice

I used to pack mine extremely tight, using a ball starter and a mallet. I used washed and dried artist canvas for a patch material which ran about .030 thick and a .495 ball out of a .50 cal. It was a tight fit, but the accuracy and fouling were both excellent.

Don McDowell · Post by **Don McDowell** » Thu Mar 27, 2008 11:17 am

Back in the day, my main match loads were 535 rndball, .020 pillow tic, lubed with blue and gray lube,and 55 gr of Goex 2f. In windy conditions or ranges much past 100 yds the charge went to 110 grs 2f.
Used the back side of the starter like a mallet, cut the patch and then jammed the whole works home.

buckeyeshooter · Post by **buckeyeshooter** » Thu Mar 27, 2008 5:09 pm

I've got a tc new englander in 54 cal. The daggone thing misfired everytime I got a shot at a deer with it. Our late muzzer season is the first week of january-- usually 10 below zero and snow.
A friend told me to remove the nipple and fill the tube to the chamber with more powder. Seemed to make it more reliable.
My solution --- a Remington 700 muzzleloader in 54 cal. with the 215 ignition system upgrade. Goes bang everytime now!

Post by **Hobie** » Thu Mar 27, 2008 5:21 pm

I have a New Englander and use Pyrodex (notoriously difficult to light with a standard cap) and have ZERO problems! Assuming no powder contamination, a good cap, you must have a blockage of some sort. Lint, burr, obstructed flash hole by whatever means.

DavidS · Post by **DavidS** » Thu Mar 27, 2008 6:20 pm

I have a T.C.Renigade in 50 Cal. I shoot Pyrodex regularly in mine with a patched .490 round ball and I have never had a problem with it going off. I believe Hobie is on the right track. I would pull the breach plug first.

gon2shoot · Post by **gon2shoot** » Thu Mar 27, 2008 6:35 pm

I have a 50 with the same problem, I've tried different nipples,caps,etc.
Havent shot it for a couple years, figgered I'd worry about it when I've got more time.

I'd be interested to know what you find out.

kimwcook · Post by **kimwcook** » Thu Mar 27, 2008 9:44 pm

Like buckeyeshooter, when my rifle would misfire I'd take the nipple out and fill it with powder, replace the nipple and voila, it would fire. But it shouldn't be that way.

I called TC and a women answered. I told her I'd like to speak with someone about problems with my Hawken. She asked what type of problems and I told her about inconsistent ignition. She told me to hold a minute and came back on after a short period of time. She asked me if I cleaned after every shot and I said no. She said that if I did residual cleaner may be in the rifle causing the powder to get wet and cause the sporadic firing. That was all she could tell me. She did say if I can't fix it to just send it to them and they'd be more than willing to take a look at it.

Even though I called the TC number from their website I reached an outfit by the name of Foxriver, Foxridge, something like that outfitters. Seemed like nice folks.

Don McDowell · Post by **Don McDowell** » Thu Mar 27, 2008 10:42 pm

Foxwhatever is TC's retail outlet, haven't had one of their catalogs in along time but they used to sell alot of nice stuff.

When you clean your gun do you use just solvents or do you do the hot water bath thing?

Might try putting a damp patch over the nipple and lowering the hammer, then drop a dolip of dishsoap down the barrel and then fill the barrel with HOT water. When the barrel stretches just enough that the water has receeded to the crown remove the patch from the nipple and start a patch on a jag down the bore, forcing all the gunky water out the nipple .
let stand and then oil the bore when its dry.
I'm thinking you could have alot of fouling built in the flashhole, and the hot water treatment will surenuff flush it out of there.

Lastmohecken · Post by **Lastmohecken** » Thu Mar 27, 2008 10:57 pm

On any muzzleloader with a drum on the side, I learned many years ago, to pour your measured charge down the barrel and even before inserting the patched roundball, bullet or whatever, tilt the gun a little and hold in your hand where powder can run into the drum area and then smack the opposite side of the rifle with the heel of your hand. This will insure that powder gets into the drum.

If you don't do that, you may not be getting powder into drum, and having to rely on the spark jumping into the main chamber. And as was said eairler, on my first hunting load, which I usually load at home, before I leave I remove the nipple and dribble a few grains of powder into the drum if it is not completely full.

But doing this I have had practically no trouble with missfires on TC's, or CVA's. I also use the hot bath cleaning method.