45-70 bullet alloy for deer.

[TedH]

I'm taking my Sharps 45-70 for it's first hunt this weekend. If you were using this cast bullet for deer, would you be ok with straight air cooled wheel weight alloy, or would you want something a little softer? WW bullets shoot the best, but I'm not going to be reaching out on a deer like I do on the Silhouette range. I don't think it will make much difference on the alloy, but it is a fairly pointed bullet. Other cast bullets I've used for hunting all have a wide flat meplat, and have always done a good job of creating substantial tissue damage.

[BrentD]

I hunt with .45s extensively. From .45-70 to .45-100. I would NOT use wheelweights. Generally I use 30:1 lead:tin at the hardest and 40:1 or even pure lead at the soft end. Hard lead like wheel weights may shatter on impact but for sure they will not expand much at all.

And if that circled bullet is the one you are using - well, it's not what I would consider optimal and there is no way you could make it soft enough for me.

Sorry but I don't think you have a good set up, though, if you make good heart/lung shot you will probably succeed in some fashion.

Mighty late in the game for load development, isn't it?

[Tycer]

That load with WW will work great. My WW+tin is about 16 BHN, plenty soft for expansion. Even without expansion, a .458" hole is going to bleed out quick. And that heavy will not stop anywhere in a whitetail, expanded or not.

[Pitchy]

Just my 2 cents but I`ve been using wheel weight (old style) for years and have dropped a few deer with great results.
I think you should stick to a flat nose design though I hunted and shot deer with the old 405 grain RN bullet for years.
I always figured a half inch hole is a half inch hole if shot placement is good, heck a 45-70 bullet is already the size of a mushroomed 30-30 bullet and look at how many deer have been taken with that.

[TedH]

I hunt with .45s extensively. From .45-70 to .45-100. I would NOT use wheelweights. Generally I use 30:1 lead:tin at the hardest and 40:1 or even pure lead at the soft end. Hard lead like wheel weights may shatter on impact but for sure they will not expand much at all.

And if that circled bullet is the one you are using - well, it's not what I would consider optimal and there is no way you could make it soft enough for me.

Sorry but I don't think you have a good set up, though, if you make good heart/lung shot you will probably succeed in some fashion.

Mighty late in the game for load development, isn't it?

First of all, my loads ARE developed, and tried and true on paper and steel. I have killed deer with straight wheel weights, and much harder alloys and never had one shatter. My only question was the shape of this bullet and would it be better served with a alloy like a 50/50 mix of WW and pure lead, which I also have ready to go. They shoot just slightly less accurately than my straight wheel weight bullets. No matter the alloy, it's still a 45 caliber bullet, and there ain't a deer alive that will stop that bullet from any angle in my opinion.

[BrentD]

Okay, it sounds like you have convinced yourself. Have at it. I'm sure the deer will die. I hope that it will be with a broad and short blood trail. But that is certainly not what I would consider a deer load, regardless of how they expand in red clay.

[TedH]

If those bullets pictured in Tycer's photo expanded and didn't shatter in red clay, I'm not sure why some folks think they shatter when encountering a spongy little whitetail.

[Grizz]

Ted you have it. Try the hammer test to see if the alloy shatters. Only applicable if your bullet encounters bear bones inside the venison.

The only question I have is if that bullet tracks straight once inside.

I shot a lot of deer with a 320 gr 44 cal bullet and only ever found one that had tracked along the spine and lodged in bone, I think your load is gonna pass thru every time.

I think that a softer bullet might expand and then slow or change direction. Is that what you want?

good hunting!

[TedH]

They pass the hammer test. I've tried the hammer test with heat treated #2 alloy in my .375 cal. bullets, and even they don't shatter or crack. On a 180 lb whitetail, it's not going to matter if they track straight. If I was shooting a 1800 lb. bison, yeah maybe I'd be concerned then.....

[BrentD]

You guys seem fixated on shattering, which may or may not be an issue, but if it's not, then penciling through will be the most probable end result with alloy that hard. If you are good with all of that, heck, shoot a spire point.

There was a nice article written maybe 10 yrs back by a long time hunter and sometime gun scribe about a momentary lapse in judgement where he decided to shoot a deer with a similar bullet and a considerably softer alloy than WW in a .45. And it was a long track and I cannot remember whether he found it at the end. But why do this when there are so many options?

Soft lead and flat nosed or very blunt round noses worked for roughly 250 yrs, including over 100 yrs in the .45-70. Why change now?

Anyway, you asked - presumably because you were not comfortable with this set up. But now you seem assured. I hope it works for you.

[Don McDowell]

Sometimes I wonder if we don't spend to much time worrying about nose shape and cast bullets. Sure it may make a difference on the small bores, but ever thought about or seen how affective a round ball is on game?
Anyway here's a picture of a bullet pulled from an original Sharps 44-77 cartridge,,, not much of a meplat .

[BrentD]

And here is a host of original Sharps bullets - want to guess which ones were hunting bullets and which were target bullets?

Roundballs would definitely qualify as "very blunt" round noses. Very unlike the bullet proposed by the OP.

http://www.public.iastate.edu/~jessie/P ... 0small.jpg

[Don McDowell]

The profile of that 645 Ted is talking about isn't that much different from the profile of the original 45 colt bullet, and there's well over a century's worth of proven track record behind that bullet.
On a whitetail deer I don't think the bullet nose is going to make all that much difference.

[BrentD]

I'd be far more comfortable with it on a bison than a deer.

But what the heck I'm preaching to a choir that has made up its mind.

[Pitchy]

Well no one said anything about what I said. BrentD where are you coming from we`re talking about white tail not bison.
For God sake shoot the dern deer in the shoulder and watch that bullet mushroom out to a half dollor.
Geeeeze give me a break, we`re talking white tail here, go ahead and argue with me,

As round balls are concerned, the reason they are so good at killing is because they exspell all they're energy inside the animal.

[BrentD]

Okay, whatever you say. Heck, ya'll got it figured out I see.

I'm confused whey the OP even bothered to ask, but I'll just let you guys carry on.

[Pitchy]

That`s foolish, what part of understanding don`t ya grasp that a red ryder will take down a a white tail.
Hey McDown maybe ya ought to chime in and say it`s because it was a repilica
Come on lets get real and get rid of the one sided one way or the highway mentality.
We got obamy for that

[1894c]

Okay, whatever you say. Heck, ya'll got it figured out I see.
I'm confused whey the OP even bothered to ask, but I'll just let you guys carry on.

BrentD...we're a nice group here...we discuss stuff...we disagree sometimes...we encourage...we kid each other...we pick on each other in good fun...sometimes it's hard to assign motive or truly understand what someone is saying through this digital print media...printed words are very limited when it comes to motive, intent, and meaning--talking to each other on the phone and in person would be better...but here we are...in the end don't sweat it...it's all good... :)

[3leggedturtle]

Ted you could shoot it backwards as a smack'em hard, boat-tailed wadcutter That's my last sarcastic comment for the year er day uh unless the GF settles me down

The 32WCF and 38WCF are sure good looking bullets. I'd buy a M92 in those calibers just to shoot them 2

[TedH]

Hey Pitchy I'd certainly agree with ya about the flat nose bullet. I have killed deer with .375, .44 and .45 caliber cast bullets, and those others are all of the wide flat nose design with the exception of one of the .375 deer, that was a Lyman design that doesn't have much of a meplat at all. It punched a hole through the deer and dropped him within about 40 yards of where he stood.

I don't know why there is confusion here at all. My only question was to get you guys' opinion on if you would shoot wheel weights or a 50/50 mix of WW and lead. I made no mention of how inferior my choice of bullet was.

[Pitchy]

Hey Pitchy I'd certainly agree with ya about the flat nose bullet. I have killed deer with .375, .44 and .45 caliber cast bullets, and those others are all of the wide flat nose design with the exception of one of the .375 deer, that was a Lyman design that doesn't have much of a meplat at all. It punched a hole through the deer and dropped him within about 40 yards of where he stood.

I don't know why there is confusion here at all. My only question was to get you guys' opinion on if you would shoot wheel weights or a 50/50 mix of WW and lead. I made no mention of how inferior my choice of bullet was.

Because ther`s certain people that just have to argue about everything, they`ey way or the highway.

I`d really like to meet up with a few of these one way thinkers and straighten them out, tell them and show them that they only think they know everything.

[Pitchy]

I`m really looking forward too it.

[Don McDowell]

Ted I really don't think the alloy is going to matter, that bullet is probably not going to slow down on a whitetail anyway. But if it gives you a better feeling about the bullet then by all means go to the softer alloy. Confidence in your load and bullet is everybit as important as the actual load itself.
Hopefully you got us some pictures of a dead whitetail to oogle at come Saturday afternoon.

[Pitchy]

Don thanks for the acknowledgement, how can I say it more politely then I think your a bunch of hot air.
What make ya think our way is the only way?
I`m really interested in your repley.

By the way here`s my phone number if ya want to talk about it, and its open to anyone elase that wants to upset anyone on this fine board.

218-536-1442

[Pitchy]

By the way Don why don`t ya drive up to Big Timber and ask them great Sharps builders that care that everyone ones an original Sharps why when this long haired hippy veteran showed up I wasn`t good enough to get the tour.
Excuses me for my out rightness but I seem to see a lot of attitude that disagrees with me heavily.
As a guy that sticks up for the little guy I patiently await your response.

[TedH]

Pitchy I didn't read anything from Don that would have been upsetting to anyone. Not sure, but it seems something got under your skin today, and if it's something about this thread and the way it's run astray then let's just get rid of it, so if a MOD would care to delete it, that's fine with me.

[Old Savage]

Ted, I for one have found the various information and opinions interesting. Guess I have been ignoring the barbs and such. Seems to me anyone is free to do it any way the want and the boiled down opinion seems to be that any will be a through and through at that bullet weight and the deer won't go far. Thorough trials over the years from a few here. My only experience was at short range with a 300 Barnes TSX. Didn't blow a smallish three point down I'll tell you. Third through the heart let the air out of him. All went through and entries and exits looked almost the same. Long way from cast. Moot for me. We can't use lead here.

Well it ain't like it's light beer. Which by the way is a misnomer - checked on the can and it weighs 12 oz. just like the real stuff.

[CowboyTutt]

Interesting thread despite the hard feelings. I didn't really perceive any deliberate insults, just a difference of opinions with one guy in the minority. It happens sometimes but the next time you may well be in the majority. Best not to make so much of isolated incidents. Things will change from day to day on a forum. Its all good, we are friends here. I think Tycer's post is about spot on. I have not successfully hunted anything but I have a real interest in terminal ballistics. That heavy a bullet weight is not going to stop in the deer for sure as he (Tycer) said, so its seems logical that something that expands would be better. OTOH I would not want excessive meat damage either? I'm thinking a neck shot with any of the bullets mentioned would be DRT (Dead Right There) and yield more meat maybe? Or maybe if you like to experiment like me, drill a small hollow point into the WW bullet to assure expansion? Hard to know the consistency of the red clay and how it compares to deer meat. If you guys have ever taught me one thing over the years, its shot placement every time. Thanks for that guys! This is still a great forum and I'm glad to be back!

Regards,

-Tutt

[rjohns94]

A whole forum of folks over at the Shiloh forum use a bullet similar to what ted H has picked out, the "govt" bullet. As mentioned by others here. On deer, I don think it matters. As a general hunting load , I would use #2 lead/tin mix. I also wouldn't have any problem using all lead.

As for the tone, ease up fellas, we are all friends here. Blessings

[JerryB]

Tut, A neck shot is always good but I have bee told not to do that. My wife says the neck roast is the first piece cut after the hide comes off, she'll have the dutch oven on the burner waiting.

[6pt-sika]

To each his own but I was always kinda partial to the old Gould 330 grain HP PB bullet pushed with 31.5 grains of SR4759 . Well that was in a lever action . But I see no reason that wouldn't work well in a Sharps as well .

Oh yeah I used plain old wheel weights when I cast the Gould bullet .

[BrentD]

A whole forum of folks over at the Shiloh forum use a bullet similar to what ted H has picked out, the "govt" bullet. As mentioned by others here. On deer, I don think it matters. As a general hunting load , I would use #2 lead/tin mix. I also wouldn't have any problem using all lead.

As for the tone, ease up fellas, we are all friends here. Blessings

When folks say "Government Bullet" what they generally mean is the Lyman 457124 or 457125

Shown respectively below, they look very different from the proposed bullet. And they are intended to be cast with very soft lead. But hey, don't believe me. Read the Lyman site or the Shiloh site or any of a host of others. Then go shoot a deer with a pointy bullet and wheel weights. It will probably turn out okay. If I shoot one with a .22 lr it will probably work out too, but I won't, even were it legal.

385 gr


500 gr


I find it very strange that someone would have questions about the adequacy of his or her load less than a week before hunting with what they have. Call me nuts or whatever you want, but I think the game animals deserve better more careful planning. If someone else does not, that is his business but I'll call it for what I see it in public - again because I think game animals deserve better.

[Ray Newman]

From what I read and heard from casters who have shot whitetails with the Lyman-A. C. Gould 300g HP, 6pt-sika’s remarks and experiences are dead on.

Pitchy as for your complaint that Shiloh did not give you a factory tour, from what I was told by Shiloh only paying customers or those picking up a rifle are given tours. Seems that that has been Shiloh’s policy for a while now. And even then, it can be “iffy” depending upon the work load and the number of employees on hand.

When I picked up my Shiloh in 2008, I did not get a factory tour. That day, the front office staff was short, Kirk was on the shop floor working on a machine, and all the other shops employees were busy. Would have liked to seen the shop, but Shiloh had other priorities that day.

[Steelbanger]

Not a 45-70 but I did kill a deer 6-7 years ago with a 38-55 and the bullet profile looks much like the Saeco bullet you show. That particular bullet was a group buy on one of these forums and shot very well. My alloy was a very hard mix with a high percentage of stereotype metal. Those bullets were very hard but it performed well. I shot the doe through both shoulders, it lunged across the path and fell down dead. While butchering it all my son recovered was the gas check but he promptly lost it so nothing remains of that kill. But I could not have asked for a better bullet performance despite the tiny meplat.

[TedH]

To each his own but I was always kinda partial to the old Gould 330 grain HP PB bullet pushed with 31.5 grains of SR4759 . Well that was in a lever action . But I see no reason that wouldn't work well in a Sharps as well .

Oh yeah I used plain old wheel weights when I cast the Gould bullet .

I have that mold also, but that bullet doesn't shoot well from my Sharps, though it shoots very well from my levers and Handi.

[6pt-sika]

To each his own but I was always kinda partial to the old Gould 330 grain HP PB bullet pushed with 31.5 grains of SR4759 . Well that was in a lever action . But I see no reason that wouldn't work well in a Sharps as well .

Oh yeah I used plain old wheel weights when I cast the Gould bullet .

I have that mold also, but that bullet doesn't shoot well from my Sharps, though it shoots very well from my levers and Handi.

Do you possibly have a copy of Ranch Dog's 460-350GC mold ?

I got that one shooting pretty well in my gunsmith buddies Pedersoli Sharps .

Used XMP5744 with the RD 350 grainer .

[Old Savage]

Comparing my friend's Sharps and my Marlin 1895SS with the same loads - very different results depending on bullet shape. Apparently the Sharps wants a much longer bullet to shoot properly in 45-70.

[TedH]

I find it very strange that someone would have questions about the adequacy of his or her load less than a week before hunting with what they have. Call me nuts or whatever you want, but I think the game animals deserve better more careful planning. If someone else does not, that is his business but I'll call it for what I see it in public - again because I think game animals deserve better.

I'll go ahead and call you nuts if you want. You are making ASSumptions when you know nothing about me. At no time did I question the adequacy of my load. All I asked was which alloy you guys would choose, if you cared to elaborate on the reason why you chose whichever alloy then great, I'm always open to discussion, that's the purpose of a polite forum such as this. I have no doubt my load will kill any deer at any angle I may take a shot. I've burned over 6 pounds of black powder through this rifle this year, and I have every confidence in the rifle and the load, whichever alloy I choose to use. You have no reason to question my ethics as a hunter either. I have lost exactly 1 deer since I began deer hunting at 9 years old, that would have been 34 years ago. The one I lost was when I was 10 years old, and I took an offhand shot with a 30-30 at a doe that I shouldn't have. We found some hair, and some meaty tissue, but no blood trail and no deer. It made me sick to my stomach, and ever since then I do not take any shot, with any type of weapon be it a bow, rifle, muzzleloader, or handgun, unless I know it will hit vitals and kill the animal. ALL of those weapons I have used to successfully harvest deer during those 34 years. So you can continue to be an arrogant azzhat if you wish, your types usually don't last long around here once they realize everyone doesn't bow down to your immense powers over the rest of us minions.

[Chuck 100 yd]

Shoot what ya got and don`t worry. Deer aren't very tough and the .45 makes a BIG hole.

[AJMD429]

Okay, it sounds like you have convinced yourself. Have at it. I'm sure the deer will die. I hope that it will be with a broad and short blood trail. But that is certainly not what I would consider a deer load, regardless of how they expand in red clay.

Every deer I've killed was with essentially the same bullet, whether shot out of a revolver, rifle, or as a saboted muzzleloader or shotgun projectile; a 240-250 grain jacketed softpoint in 0.430"-0.452" diameter, going from 1200-1800 feet per second. NONE of them expanded much, but they ALL made two holes in the deer (entry and exit), and it didn't matter if they hit bone or just soft tissue.

Why would any bullet of 40-50 caliber that is sturdy enough to make it through a deer NOT be suitable for hunting, and how many cast bullets really 'shatter' upon impact, anyway...???

I was told that 444 Marlin loads with the 265 grain 'pistol' bullets were NOT suitable for hunting, as they would be going too fast, and just 'explode on the surface, causing a horrible and devastating flesh wound, without killing the deer'.

The crisp-cut HOLES in this 3/8" steel gong is what those wimpy bullets do when fired from the 444 Marlin at 100 yards...

...so I'm really SURE they'd "blow up on the skin" of a deer...

I think we ALL have to be careful not to believe the old-wives-tales of the shooting world, and need to think for ourselves, gather our own data, and not just spread the same-old-nonsense that someone else said who was supposedly an 'expert'. There's stuff 'experts' say is so that is definitely NOT so, and yet stuff that we'd darn sure better believe - the problem is it isn't always clear which stuff is so, and which stuff isn't...

[Grizz]

Ted:

Doc: some cast bullets are frangible, look at the white box 12ga slugs in gel penetration tests. They come all unglued. Also a famous former forumite used to hunt with dead soft or thereabouts cast bullets, I think paper patched, and maybe I remember that they splatted on Bison shoulder, or some such.

Or: it could be it was a dream that I confused with a post.

g'nite mrs. mcgillicutty, wherever you are

[TedH]

This is still a great forum and I'm glad to be back!

Regards,

-Tutt

Glad to see ya back Tutt.

[TedH]

To each his own but I was always kinda partial to the old Gould 330 grain HP PB bullet pushed with 31.5 grains of SR4759 . Well that was in a lever action . But I see no reason that wouldn't work well in a Sharps as well .

Oh yeah I used plain old wheel weights when I cast the Gould bullet .

I have that mold also, but that bullet doesn't shoot well from my Sharps, though it shoots very well from my levers and Handi.

Do you possibly have a copy of Ranch Dog's 460-350GC mold ?

I got that one shooting pretty well in my gunsmith buddies Pedersoli Sharps .

Used XMP5744 with the RD 350 grainer .

No, I've got several of his other molds, but not that one. The 30 cal from this last group buy should be here any day now. Really looking forward to trying that one out.

[piller]

I have only shot 2 animals with a .45-70 and both were interesting. The Scimitar Horned Oryx was shot with a 350 grain round nose and it was not a good shot. The Scimitar took some work by a guide to get it. The other one was a Wildebeest. The wildebeest was with a flat nose jacketed bullet weighing 405 grains. That one was a Texas heart shot as it was the only shot available. The bullet penetrated a bunch of tough meat and bone. A deer is not usually as tough as either one, but I wouldn't bet that there aren't some tough individuals in the whitetail world. The Scimitar had holes on both sides, but the holes closed and there wasn't much blood to find. The Wildebeest didn't leave much blood, but it did not have complete penetration. It had about 4 feet of penetration. My main point is, don't bet the farm that all animals will act the same when hit.

[Pitchy]

You guys are tops in my book and I apologize for my orneriness
I was feeling my oats when I started my rant then something told me to call a lady we met in TX to see how they were doing.
She told me her husband passed away yesterday, it hit me like a rock
Please pray for her she`s taking it pretty bad.

[Borregos]

You guys are tops in my book and I apologize for my orneriness
I was feeling my oats when I started my rant then something told me to call a lady we met in TX to see how they were doing.
She told me her husband passed away yesterday, it hit me like a rock
Please pray for her she`s taking it pretty bad.

Prayers up Pitchy.

[86er]

Well, I have enjoyed the information here and learned something. I do not find Ted or his question strange at all. I have gotten the sudden impulse to use a particular rifle for deer hunting that was not even sighted in. I work up loads and sight in that morning until I have an accurate bullet and load I am comfortable with and am sighted in. Then I'd hunt with it all that afternoon or the next morning. Nothing wrong with satisfying an impulse as long as you do it productively. It seems Ted was ahead of this curve anyway. I don't know much about casting bullets. My question is - does one lead the barrel more or tend to be dirtier? Then if so, is it more or less accurate than the other load. With that size and weight bullet it doesn't seem like the deer will care either way, but what is it specifically that the caster cares about? This stuff is fascinating to me. I just started shooting different cast bullets in 35 caliber and each one tends to be an island unto itself as far as accuracy, terminal performance, ease of loading and residue left over.

[M. M. Wright]

I know I'm coming in to this discussion rather late but allow me to say, as a .45 shooter, that my hunting bullets are cast from 30:1 Pb/Sn alloy. Some of the very old factory loads had this info on the box and old timers thought this was appropriate so I too use it.

If I ever get to kill a bison maybe I'll go to 20:1 for better penetration and probably use a heavier bullet than the 300 grainer I use in my original 45-90 because of the slow twist though I doubt if the buffler would know the difference.

[TedH]

You guys are tops in my book and I apologize for my orneriness
I was feeling my oats when I started my rant then something told me to call a lady we met in TX to see how they were doing.
She told me her husband passed away yesterday, it hit me like a rock
Please pray for her she`s taking it pretty bad.

We all have those days Pitchy, don't sweat it. Sorry to hear about your friend, prayers up for all if you.

[mikld]

Well, I'm not much of a hunter (grew up in L.A. and didn't have any opportunities or friends that hunted) so my opinion my be worthless. I have much more success finding information on forums such as this as I do talking to the folks that hunt around here. I read all the different opinions and study them, and seek information wherever I can, and then I look at the situation and form my opinion, mostly using common sense and not "popularity". Doing this, I would hunt with a large meplat bullet of moderate hardness alloy, and at moderate speeds. On deer size game I would expect though and through with a large wound cavity (not from bullet expansion, but from bullet design). I also have found pretty accurate bullets using this method that I certainly would use for deer size game, namely a Ranch Dog 240 or 265 grain .44 caliber, shooting from my Puma or one of my revolvers.

Again, this is just an opinion from an ex-city boy that loves his lever guns, lead bullets, reloading and shooting.

Another thing I have found is it's great to have a viable opinion on any subject, but being a stiff necked, stubborn, rude, donkey has no place on a forum with as many knowledgeable folks as Leverguns.com...