EAA Witness 10mm

sore shoulder · Post by **sore shoulder** » Sun Mar 03, 2013 10:19 pm

For you guys who like your steel guns, this is as close to the original Bren Ten that the late Col Cooper helped develope. Based on the CZ75 this pistol epitomizes the combat pistol that Col Cooper sought to bring to the market. I think it's important to note that one of the most prolific advocates of .45acp felt the 10mm was superior, and rightfully so. True 10mm ballistics far surpass .45acp in every way. More powerful than .357 magnum. 10mm has increase in popularity recently with several manufacturers offering true 10mm ammo with energy levels well over 700 ft lbs from standard barrel. I love my G20 but I would like to own the pattern that started it all.

http://www.ableammo.com/catalog/witness ... 08477.html

Mescalero · Post by **Mescalero** » Sun Mar 03, 2013 11:25 pm

I know you are going to disagree.........................
The only way to shoot 10MM is from a 1911 in .400 CorBON.
PERIOD.

sore shoulder · Post by **sore shoulder** » Sun Mar 03, 2013 11:33 pm

Mescalero wrote:I know you are going to disagree.........................
The only way to shoot 10MM is from a 1911 in .400 CorBON.
PERIOD.

Hahaha you're right, thanks for playing. .400 CorBon has less power and less capacity in any pistol, much less a low cap 1911.

However the lower powered CorBon is less likely to beat the 1911 to pieces the way 10mm will. There is a reason Cooper didn't choose the 1911 platform to build his combat pistol.

Blaine · Post by **Blaine** » Mon Mar 04, 2013 12:31 am

Ah, Grasshopper.....One of the arguments that you, yourself make FOR larger bores, and heavier bullets is that "paper ballistics" are often inferior to what works in real life. Col. Cooper might have liked the 10, but, he always carried a .45acp, and he was quoted as saying that the launcher mattered not. (or, maybe the 45-70 is NOT more effective on bear than the 30wcf

)

sore shoulder · Post by **sore shoulder** » Mon Mar 04, 2013 1:42 am

Meh, it still starts with a "4" Blaine.

And a 230gr .40 cal is going to penetrate deeper than .45 due to high sectional density. It also flies very flat which is why it's used so often for handgun hunting.

However I don't need that much penetration for personal defense. Which is why I'm using a 135gr Nosler HP doing 1600fps when I'm in zombie territory. Big, deep holes.

Also, I think the reason Cooper didn't carry a 10 is the same reason the Bren Ten failed. Lack of a good magazine. I suspect he would have been very impressed by the EAA lineup.

Rusty · Post by **Rusty** » Mon Mar 04, 2013 7:07 am

When I was a LEO back in the 70's our dept. mandated revolvers in any caliber we could qulify with as long as it was a minimum of .38 sp. I started with a .357 mag but moved up to a .41 mag. After shooting the .41 for a while I found that the Remington mid range load seemed to be a better duty round than the full speed .41 mag out of my 4" M58 S&W. The mid range load was a 210 gr LSWC @ 950 FPS. Pretty close to the .40 S&W used now days. I always felt the full house .41 was a little too much for duty use. Too much recoil, muzzle flash, and blast.

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Mon Mar 04, 2013 7:16 am

I've "heard" that the 10mm's in both Glock and EAA Witness formats are "hard on the gun" and "lead to premature failures". BUT you "hear" all kinds of stuff on the internet by folks who are just speculating or spreading rumors, etc. Long ago I almost got a ParaOrdnance 16-shot 10mm in their double-stack 1911 format, but since they don't make them, and I've not seen any Colt 10mms either lately, I figured maybe they had problems.

I'd want a 10mm to feed perfectly, mostly. Anything from .40 to .45 should be great, but IT HAS TO WORK EVERY TIME or I'll prefer the 'lesser' cartridge.

olyinaz · Post by **olyinaz** » Mon Mar 04, 2013 10:44 am

I've looked at those Witness pistols but I have a hard time getting past the feeling that they are built for drug lords and gang bangers. Egads some of them are gaudy! Maybe Blaine should get one to go with his chromed Sharps and gold plated AK??

I have to admit though, this one had me looking a while back, with hunting in mind:

http://eaacorp.com/portfolio-item/witness-hunter/

Mescalero · Post by **Mescalero** » Mon Mar 04, 2013 10:56 am

What I know of them, they are good pistols, but 10MM....... no thanks.

piller · Post by **piller** » Mon Mar 04, 2013 11:39 am

In any firefight, you want to put rounds on target. This was taught to me by the Army. My concern with the 10mm is whether or not it is controllable enough to put a second shot, maybe at a second target, very very quickly. I can control the 9mm, the .40 cal, and the .45 auto enough to do it. An accurately placed shot from any one of those 3 is useful.

cas · Post by **cas** » Mon Mar 04, 2013 12:35 pm

olyinaz wrote:I've looked at those Witness pistols but I have a hard time getting past the feeling that they are built for drug lords and gang bangers. Egads some of them are gaudy!

I love my Limited, it's my USPSA L-10 gun, but as much as I like it, and as tempting as some of the long slide versions they sell are, I have to wonder about the longevity in a 10mm.

sore shoulder · Post by **sore shoulder** » Mon Mar 04, 2013 12:41 pm

AJ, I've seen and heard of Colt Delta Elite's cracking from real 10mm. Never ever heard of a Glock 10mm failing and I've been shooting them since 1989. In fact to the contrary, the Glock is really responsible for keeping the 10mm alive and is known for being a big, beefy, solid gun that's able to handle real 10mm loads on a regular basis. I have not heard of an EAA failing, but I don't have the experience with them that I have with a Glock 20. They seem to be increasing in popularity and the only negative comments/reviews I've read were customer service based.

Rusty, I had heard that LE liked to use lighter loads in the .41, thanks for the comments. A .41 will drive that 210gr a LOT faster. Much faster than a real 10mm load.

O.S.O.K. · Post by **O.S.O.K.** » Mon Mar 04, 2013 12:47 pm

I had one of those - I loved the ergonomics and it was quite accurate. However, I could never get it to feed reliably - and yes, I had factory mags...

I ended up selling it and getting a G20SF. My Glock is super reliable and also accurate.

The 10mm is a great cartridge! It's basically a bit more than the .357 Mag in power but with a heavier, larger diameter bullet. Plenty for close-in deer hunting and more penetration than most any other standard autoloader cartridge. Yes, you can get more power with custom cartridges and larger autoloaders but for a practical side arm, the G20 is it IMHO.

COSteve · Post by **COSteve** » Mon Mar 04, 2013 12:47 pm

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COSteve · Post by **COSteve** » Mon Mar 04, 2013 1:00 pm

O.S.O.K. · Post by **O.S.O.K.** » Mon Mar 04, 2013 1:04 pm

Always good to see that baby Steve.

Extended barrel = free velocity. I have a drop-in Storm Lake 6" barrel for my G20.

As to controllability of the 10mm - I find that this is more controllable and easier to get a second rapid shot out of than a 357 Mag Revolver. It really isn't much different than shooting a 45 IMHO.

sore shoulder · Post by **sore shoulder** » Mon Mar 04, 2013 1:09 pm

I've shot .40's that had more recoil, muzzle flip and muzzle blast than my 10mm G20. Kinda like a Harley, all noise and no power.

Oh now I done it, disrespected the 1911/.45acp AND HD in one thread.

As far as looking gansta, you're right some of them do. But a chrome plated 1911 with ivory grips doesn't look gansta at all.

COSteve · Post by **COSteve** » Mon Mar 04, 2013 1:11 pm

Deleted

sore shoulder · Post by **sore shoulder** » Mon Mar 04, 2013 1:17 pm

Steve I seem to recall you had used or are using Lone Wolf barrels. I've been planning to get a 6.6" threaded barrel, but I've been reading some negative feedback lately about Lone Wolf regarding accuracy and feeding. Any input? Thanks.

O.S.O.K. · Post by **O.S.O.K.** » Mon Mar 04, 2013 1:18 pm

You still going to be able to carry that "out and about" with what's developing there?

Very sad to see Colorado go down that road...

O.S.O.K. · Post by **O.S.O.K.** » Mon Mar 04, 2013 1:19 pm

sore shoulder wrote:Steve I seem to recall you had used or are using Lone Wolf barrels. I've been planning to get a 6.6" threaded barrel, but I've been reading some negative feedback lately about Lone Wolf regarding accuracy and feeding. Any input? Thanks.

My Lone Wolf barrels are great. Where did you hear this?

sore shoulder · Post by **sore shoulder** » Mon Mar 04, 2013 1:27 pm

Steve the most recent was a comparison of various pistols in .45acp that concerned fire lapping and use of a Beartooth bullet, it was linked from Leverguns just recently. I've read about the feeding issues several times in reviews elsewhere and also some customer service issues. I'm still willing to give them a shot however

COSteve · Post by **COSteve** » Mon Mar 04, 2013 3:01 pm

Panzercat · Post by **Panzercat** » Mon Mar 04, 2013 4:04 pm

Or you could just go with RIA's new offering.

O.S.O.K. · Post by **O.S.O.K.** » Mon Mar 04, 2013 4:14 pm

RIA is making a 10mm? Oh no.... I better get my finances in order! I would really like a 10mm 1911. Hope they have lots of mags for them too!

I honestly don't understand why more manufacturers don't make 10mm models of their guns - like Springfield - both their 1911 and XD/XDM.

10mm is a great caliber! The end-all? No, of course not but a really good caliber for so many reasons.

sore shoulder · Post by **sore shoulder** » Mon Mar 04, 2013 4:52 pm

As I was saying, 10mm is seeing a resurgence in popularity. Hopefully this will encourage ammo makers to produce more, and to produce it in a "+P"/Norma loading. I really like the Fed AE FMJ truncated cone, but it's pricey and low powered (a 180gr at 1140 fps is really unacceptable).

While I don't care for 10mm in the 1911 platform due to inherent strength issues and low round count, maybe there's a workaround. I noticed one of the more custom 1911 houses had one listed, can't recall which one, and it can only help promote the cartridge.

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Mon Mar 04, 2013 6:02 pm

sore shoulder wrote:While I don't care for 10mm in the 1911 platform due to inherent strength issues and low round count, maybe there's a workaround. I noticed one of the more custom 1911 houses had one listed, can't recall which one, and it can only help promote the cartridge.

I actually PREFER the 'double-stack' grip of the Para Ordnance P-14, so would be happy with a 'double-stack' 1911-format 10mm. Still the Glocks keep surfacing as ultra-reliable, though, even though they are butt-ugly. If this stupid "assault weapon" and "magazine" stuff can be stopped, One or another form of 10mm is on my "someday" list.

sore shoulder · Post by **sore shoulder** » Mon Mar 04, 2013 6:22 pm

To me, the Para Ordnance is a lot of weight for little or no gain. My G20 fully loaded with 15+1 weighs less than an empty 1911, and is a lot simpler to use and a lot tougher. In fact, after watching my wife and daughters confidence level increase dramatically when switching from the 1911 to a Glock I just can't imagine ever going back to a 1911 for anything other than a toy.

damienph · Post by **damienph** » Mon Mar 04, 2013 6:24 pm

olyinaz wrote:I've looked at those Witness pistols but I have a hard time getting past the feeling that they are built for drug lords and gang bangers. Egads some of them are gaudy! Maybe Blaine should get one to go with his chromed Sharps and gold plated AK??

I have to admit though, this one had me looking a while back, with hunting in mind:

http://eaacorp.com/portfolio-item/witness-hunter/

For those who haven't seen it, here is a picture of Blaine's gold plated AK.

Mescalero · Post by **Mescalero** » Mon Mar 04, 2013 7:30 pm

Can you hit anything with that front sight?

Malamute · Post by **Malamute** » Mon Mar 04, 2013 8:07 pm

O.S.O.K. wrote:
sore shoulder wrote:Steve I seem to recall you had used or are using Lone Wolf barrels. I've been planning to get a 6.6" threaded barrel, but I've been reading some negative feedback lately about Lone Wolf regarding accuracy and feeding. Any input? Thanks.
My Lone Wolf barrels are great. Where did you hear this?

I looked up some reviews a year or so ago for some reason and recall seeing a fair bit of negative feedback about Lone Wolf barrels and surly customer service when people had problems. Seems a number of guys simply gave up on getting them to work right or getting any customer service and ended up buying other makes of barrels.

The 10 is a good cartridge, but not easy to find if needed. If I got another Glock, it would be a 45. I', good on 45 loads in any event. For what I'd want one for, the 10 wouldnt be enough advantage to warrant starting over with a new cartridge, and the availabilty issue. For out in the hills, I prefer a revolver in any event.

I seem to recall Cooper being enthused about the 10mm, and the Bren gun, but after the magazine problems were never sorted out and the company failed, he ended up saying it wasnt really needed, as the 45 did quite well in any event.

A few early 10mm glocks were reported to have come apart, but I think they figured it out before long. By coming apart, I mean like frames splitting open. Don't know how many did, but I heard of it in a couple instances or more, I dont believe it was a one time event. The early 40's had teething problems also, but they got it figured out as well.

Panzercat · Post by **Panzercat** » Mon Mar 04, 2013 8:14 pm

Mescalero wrote:Can you hit anything with that front sight?

A giant chicken.

Blaine · Post by **Blaine** » Mon Mar 04, 2013 8:17 pm

Mescalero wrote:Can you hit anything with that front sight?

Duh!!..can't you see that the barrel is fowled....

O.S.O.K. · Post by **O.S.O.K.** » Mon Mar 04, 2013 8:35 pm

sore shoulder wrote:As I was saying, 10mm is seeing a resurgence in popularity. Hopefully this will encourage ammo makers to produce more, and to produce it in a "+P"/Norma loading. I really like the Fed AE FMJ truncated cone, but it's pricey and low powered (a 180gr at 1140 fps is really unacceptable).

While I don't care for 10mm in the 1911 platform due to inherent strength issues and low round count, maybe there's a workaround. I noticed one of the more custom 1911 houses had one listed, can't recall which one, and it can only help promote the cartridge.

Yes, Kimber IIRC produces a 10mm 1911.

sore shoulder · Post by **sore shoulder** » Mon Mar 04, 2013 8:38 pm

I was thinking it was Kimber but wasn't sure. Certainly lends credibility. I do recall someone once saying a different spring and buffer helped keep the Delta Elite together better.

COSteve · Post by **COSteve** » Mon Mar 04, 2013 9:04 pm

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Mon Mar 04, 2013 9:45 pm

COSteve wrote:
AJMD429 wrote:Still the Glocks keep surfacing as ultra-reliable, though, even though they are butt-ugly.
Butt-ugly? Both my Glock 20L and 24 above are anything but ugly .

Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder, and I just can't appreciate beauty in a Glock; however that said, one of my most beautiful handguns (and slickest trigger next to a Contender) was a Para Ordnance LDA - I still never warmed up to it enough for CCW use.

However, even a 455 Webley revolver, as cartoon-ish as they look would be a 'beautiful' gun if I felt it the most reliable way to protect my family/self.

So far my ugliest 1911 wins the reliability contest of semiauto pistols at my house, but if a Glock comes along that can beat it, I'll probably start thinking it is beautiful...

From what I hear, it's only a matter of GETTING a Glock, then I'll find it reliable. If I do, it will probably be a 10mm, as I seem to be able to shoot stout loads and get back on target quickly with my other handguns.

Mescalero · Post by **Mescalero** » Mon Mar 04, 2013 10:38 pm

Don't do it Doc,
google up Glock kaboom.

sore shoulder · Post by **sore shoulder** » Mon Mar 04, 2013 10:48 pm

Mescalero wrote:Don't do it Doc,
google up Glock kaboom.

Go ahead and google it. You will turn up all kinds of .40 Glocks and no 10mm. After you do that, google sig sauer .45acp kaboom.

olyinaz · Post by **olyinaz** » Tue Mar 05, 2013 12:11 am

STI makes an interesting 10mm:

http://www.stiguns.com/the-sti-perfect-10/

COSteve · Post by **COSteve** » Tue Mar 05, 2013 8:58 am

soon 2 retire · Post by **soon 2 retire** » Tue Mar 05, 2013 9:47 am

O.S.O.K. wrote:
sore shoulder wrote:As I was saying, 10mm is seeing a resurgence in popularity. Hopefully this will encourage ammo makers to produce more, and to produce it in a "+P"/Norma loading. I really like the Fed AE FMJ truncated cone, but it's pricey and low powered (a 180gr at 1140 fps is really unacceptable).

While I don't care for 10mm in the 1911 platform due to inherent strength issues and low round count, maybe there's a workaround. I noticed one of the more custom 1911 houses had one listed, can't recall which one, and it can only help promote the cartridge.
Yes, Kimber IIRC produces a 10mm 1911.

Im pretty sure that Nighthawk Custom still makes one but I'm not sure because the text on their "improved" website is unreadable on my ipad.

Bob in Friday Harbor

sore shoulder · Post by **sore shoulder** » Tue Mar 05, 2013 3:18 pm

Really cool 10mm ballistics table for a pretty comprehensive list of manufacturers.

http://www.ballistics101.com/10mm.php

cas · Post by **cas** » Tue Mar 05, 2013 5:16 pm

And yet I know someone who's had 3 Glock's blow up, so who's to say.

Mescalero · Post by **Mescalero** » Tue Mar 05, 2013 5:38 pm

Wow!
Three of them!

sore shoulder · Post by **sore shoulder** » Tue Mar 05, 2013 5:44 pm

cas wrote:And yet I know someone who's had 3 Glock's blow up, so who's to say.

That's really suspicious.

olyinaz · Post by **olyinaz** » Tue Mar 05, 2013 5:56 pm

sore shoulder wrote:
cas wrote:And yet I know someone who's had 3 Glock's blow up, so who's to say.
That's really suspicious.

I'm sorry, but it really is suspicious. One? Sure - law of odds. THREE? Come on now...

Not callin' anyone out! Just sayin' it's weird...really weird.

hfcable · Post by **hfcable** » Tue Mar 05, 2013 7:51 pm

" I have not heard of an EAA failing, but I don't have the experience with them that I have with a Glock 20. They seem to be increasing in popularity and the only negative comments/reviews I've read were customer service based."

i have read several first hand reports of cracked slides on the EAA 10, which dissuaded me from getting it. I do like the EAA design, and have it in 9, 40, and 45 with no problems. having said that i also have two of the glock 20s, one with a lone wolf barrel. like my other glocks, they are just as reliable as the sun rising. I am with Steve: 1911s may be fun to play with, but for rock solid reliability the glocks, HKs and Sigs are it for me.

i hadnt realized that lone wolf made a 40 conversion barrel for the glock 20 until i read it here, but this am i ordered one.

beauty is as beauty does. glocks are wicked beautiful to me.

rogn · Post by **rogn** » Wed Mar 06, 2013 5:49 pm

Ive had a Glock 20 for a couple of years now and dont think its seen a round of factory,. Its been 99% firebreathing hunting loads, might as well use what its going to shoot. Ive had a series of failure to feeds,maybe 15 or so out of a thousand or so fired.. I finally traced the problem to whatever lube /preservative used in the magazines. Cleaned and lightly lubed, functions been perfect eversince. Just a bit of info that might be useful. Incidentaly I have a LW barrel on it and its a tad more accurate than the factory version, also the 22# recoil spring. Over all I really do lke it a lot. I wish Sig made one also.
Three KBs with Glocks only really suggests a good magnified examination of the operator, and any other operator factors.

Mescalero · Post by **Mescalero** » Wed Mar 06, 2013 6:46 pm

I disagree, those three; and many, many more warrant further invetigation.
When I said google up glock kaboom, sore shoulder said go ahead google it, you will find only glock .40's.
1st page ( of many ) 4 stories down.glock 20 in 10MM blown to ----.
It would be folly to ignore what I see.