44 mag 300gr load

[Machado]

Gentlemen:
I'm looking for a good load for the RCBS 44-300-SWC bullet. It weighs 308 gr in my alloy. I'm restricted to powders similar to Blue Dot and IMR 3031. Cartridge OAL is too long to feed reliably in my Rossi 92, so I intend to shoot it in my Ruger Redhawk, or in my TC Contender 10" when I feel I deserve some pain. Thank you for your input.
Best,
Antonio

[Blaine]

I've used Blue Dot in varying amounts for bullets between 240 and 300 grains. You can nearly equal H110 performance while using much less grains of the Blue Dot. My scoped 629 would print ORH at about 25 meters, and shoot minute of pop can within 44mag range.

[Machado]

Thank you, Blaine. Can you suggest a Blue Dot charge?

[Blaine]

Thank you, Blaine. Can you suggest a Blue Dot charge?

My 300 grain load w/an Aardvark Hard Cast bullet is currently 10.5 grains. OAL 1.60... A very moderate load that should be shooting circa 1,100fps. Personally, I'd look at a couple loading books before going any farther.

[JohndeFresno]

Blaine,

QuickLoad predictive ballistic software indicates this information with your load out of a 6.5 inch barrel:
308 gr. RCBC 44-300-SWC seated for COAL of 1.60"
10.5 gr. Blue Dot (65.4% of case filled)
891 fps, 16,342 psi maximum peak pressure

That software also shows that a 12.5 grain dose of Blue Dot,
same bullet and COAL, delivers about 1042 fps
with a predicted 24,143 psi maximum peak pressure,
filling the case 77.9%.
92.33% of that powder is burnt in a 6.5 inch barrel, per QuickLoad.

NOTE: My chronograph tests indicate that you can expect an actual muzzle velocity of somewhere betwen 8 and 12% LESS than what shows in the figures above; at least when you use a revolver.

Although these both appear to be well within the SAAMI safe specs of
36,000 psi, Machado, you should verify this information with other loading resources.

Incidentally, the QuickLoad software shows a default of 308 grains for that bullet, so it looks like you are using the same alloy, or close to it, that passes as "the standard."

As for IMR 3031, it would not work well in the revolver (again, per QuickLoad data). In a 6.5 inch barrel, you would need 18.0 grains of IMR 3031 (that's 97.5% fill - can't go much higher).

At 10,284 psi, only 31.73% of the powder would be burnt and you are looking at something slower than 694 fps (MV in a 6.5 inch revolver).

[Machado]

Thank you, Blaine and John, for your input.
I will start with Blaine's charge and work my way up.
Best,
Machado

[Blaine]

Blaine,

QuickLoad predictive ballistic software indicates this information with your load out of a 6.5 inch barrel:
308 gr. RCBC 44-300-SWC seated for COAL of 1.60"
10.5 gr. Blue Dot (65.4% of case filled)
891 fps, 16,342 psi maximum peak pressure

That software also shows that a 12.5 grain dose of Blue Dot,
same bullet and COAL, delivers about 1042 fps
with a predicted 24,143 psi maximum peak pressure,
filling the case 77.9%.
92.33% of that powder is burnt in a 6.5 inch barrel, per QuickLoad.

NOTE: My chronograph tests indicate that you can expect an actual muzzle velocity of somewhere betwen 8 and 12% LESS than what shows in the figures above; at least when you use a revolver.

Although these both appear to be well within the SAAMI safe specs of
36,000 psi, Machado, you should verify this information with other loading resources.

Incidentally, the QuickLoad software shows a default of 308 grains for that bullet, so it looks like you are using the same alloy, or close to it, that passes as "the standard."

As for IMR 3031, it would not work well in the revolver (again, per QuickLoad data). In a 6.5 inch barrel, you would need 18.0 grains of IMR 3031 (that's 97.5% fill - can't go much higher).

At 10,284 psi, only 31.73% of the powder would be burnt and you are looking at something slower than 694 fps (MV in a 6.5 inch revolver).

Interesting....I actually Chrony'ed that at the 1000-1100 range I was a PP Barrel 629...6.5"(?) bbl....Bestlever shot my Chrony, so I should probably get another someday

[JohndeFresno]

Blaine,
Maybe your bullet was seated more deeply...?

[Blaine]

Blaine,
Maybe your bullet was seated more deeply...?

I was doing a 1.6" OAL....It would be more than enough for anything I can think of around here (I limit my range with handgun hunting to about 50yds, unless I have a real good rest.)

[earlmck]

It sounds like you don't have access to H110 or W296, Antonio? Those are my go-to powders for top loads with a 300 grain bullet. I use 24 grains with my LBT LFN bullet for a about 1350 fps out of my Redhawk. These ball powders really need the magnum primer, which you wouldn't need with Blue Dot.

[Machado]

Not any more, Earlmck. Only to Brazilian-made powders. I don't have Blue Dot, either. What I have is a series of look-alikes, however yielding less gas per volume unit. My go-to is CBC220, sold in the US only to ammunition manufacturers. 1350 fps with a 300-grainer seems to be quite a wallop.

[earlmck]

I don't have Blue Dot, either. What I have is a series of look-alikes

If you've got something very like Blue Dot then you are going to be fine, I'm sure. I haven't used it in the 44 mag with the heavy bullets but I've been very impressed with Blue Dot for a very economic and reasonably high-end load with 180 grain bullets in the 357.

My H110 load used to be lots of fun to shoot when I was younger and tougher. Now it just seems to hurt the hand. Maybe a nice Blue Dot load at around 1100 fps would do anything I need to do and be more fun to shoot, too.

[Mohillbilly]

I have a 10" Dan Wesson 445 supermag . I shoot 300 gr. XTP loaded long (two canalures ) and a whole lot of AA1680 and get top performance . Maybe you can find more in the slower powder or , I'v had luck with AA 9 in my super redhawk .

[Blaine]

Clearly, I need to revisit my load and get another Chrony...if for no other reason just out of curiosity.

[Machado]

Yes, I've had good success with 240 to 270 grain bullets using Blue Dot look-alikes. I tried 15.5 grains of this CBC220 concoction under the 308 grain bullet for very authoritative bangs and unforgettable recoil in the Contender, but all my cases cracked open from mouth to head, primers were flattened, etc. No leading, though. Enough folly; I'll start easy and grow slowly.

[JohndeFresno]

Not any more, Earlmck. Only to Brazilian-made powders. I don't have Blue Dot, either. What I have is a series of look-alikes, however yielding less gas per volume unit. My go-to is CBC220, sold in the US only to ammunition manufacturers. 1350 fps with a 300-grainer seems to be quite a wallop.

Could you educate me, please? What are those "look-alikes?"

[Machado]

John, those are Brazilian powders with similar appearance and burn rates to their American counterparts. The slowest-burning pistol caliber powder is called CBC220 with a burn rate of .97 millisecond per test unit. It is single-based, designed for magnum charges and does not yield the same amount of gas American powders do, that is, I cannot obtain the same level of power you can. American powders are scarce as hen's teeth in this country; I have to make do with the concoctions available here.
Thank you for your interest.
Antonio

[JohndeFresno]

Thank you, Antonio.

[biggfoot44]

Alas not familar w/ Brazilian mfg powders . BUT logic would sugguest at least one powder to be used in .30 Carbine , and at least one for .410 shotgun hunting loads. They might not be listed as "pistol" powders , but those will be in the proper neighborhood of burning rate.

[Machado]

biggfoot44, our local powders serve most rifle calibers, and all handgun calibers. However, the manufacturers do not publish loads for 300 gr cast bullets. Thus my question. I tried empirically once and hit the wall. Once burned, twice shy...

[earlmck]

all my cases cracked open from mouth to head, primers were flattened, etc.

Machado, that is a very unusual for 44 Mag cases: they shouldn't be splitting like that even when you get to a pressure overload point where the primer pockets expand and won't hold the primers. I'm thinking your brass is way brittle, or you have a really sloppy chamber in the Contender?

I've been playing around in "QuickLoad" with this and it shows 15 grains of BlueDot being maximum for SAAMI spec (36Kpsi) loads, but giving 1250 fps (I used 7.5" bbl for that, figuring that's probably what your RedHawk is). Try your loads in the RedHawk: I have worked up loads with a non-data mil surplus powder that way, easing up until extraction got noticeably tight (over 50Kpsi) and then backing off a ways. RedHawks can take load development this way -- they are strong. Anyway, "QuickLoad" shows you'd get 1100 fps with 14 grains, even if your powder isn't quite as efficient as Blue Dot and giving up some for the "Revolver reduction" that JohndeFresno mentions. That should at least repel boarders!

[Machado]

earlmck, I fired only one shot from the Contender and found the thing quite unpleasant. I fired the remainder from my 24" Puma 92 and from my Redhawk, and all cases cracked. What you said is true. I agree in that my brass may be too brittle. I put the rest of that lot away for a while and am playing with Federal cases.
I'll eventually reach 15 grains of my powder - slowly, even though CBC220 is more tolerant of a few extra grains.
I'll begin at 11 grains and see what happens, and I'll keep in mind the BD 15 gr limit. The Blue Dot/CBC220 ratio seems to be 0.93 gr of Blue Dot to 1 gr of CBC220, but this is extrapolation and extrapolation can be dangerous.
I will try my loads in the Redhawk and will keep you posted.
Again, thank you for your interest.
Antonio

[JohndeFresno]

Machado, you probably already know this, but for any other readers:

One needs a wide range of comparative loads before making any hard guesses at powder equivalencies. They can spike at different times and under different loads, even if they appear to be the same with one bullet and bullet weight in a certain dose. Factors: shape of powder granules, size of granules, chemical composition.

So something that looks similar to another powder with one bullet weight in one dosage (e.g. 14 grains) might react quite differently with different bullet weights and doses than its apparent "companion" powder. Pressures can be drastically different between the two "companion powders, even dangerously different, with different combinations.

Examples from the Hornady Handbook, 8th Edition:
200 gr. .44-40 Winchester Hornady HP-XTP bullet -
2400 15.7 gr., 1050 fps
AA#9 15.8 gr., 1050 fps
> > > They look to be very similar at first glance < < <

...But, 2400 MAX is 16.2 gr for 1100 fps,
while you can load AA#9 to up to 16.9 for 1150 fps

Using the same powders (same source):
250 gr. .45 Colt Hornady HP-XTP bullet -
2400 20.8 gr. MAX, 1250 fps
AA#9 18.7 gr., 1250 fps,
...can load AA#9 up to 20.6 gr. MAX for 1350 fps, per Hornady info.

(Above data assumes a safe gun in Ruger or T/C strength, with proviso of working up to Max loads in ANY gun that is deemed safe to handle the loads from 10% below max, as a rule of thumb, of course)

So, in a glance, the two powders look pretty close to being twins in one loading, but that means nothing unless you find several other closely matching loads with different bullet weights and dosages.

[Machado]

John you are absolutely right. There are too many factors involved to make powder comparison a linear task. I will begin conservatively, and increase the charges progressively. Since I do not intend to produce a load that will straighten out the rifling in the gun and flattten out the landscape, reaching my top load limit from the starting load of 10.5 grains will be laborious but not difficult.
I hope this topic will help handloading neophytes advance with caution.
Again, thank you.
Best,
Antonio

[JohndeFresno]

earlmck, I fired only one shot from the Contender and found the thing quite unpleasant....I'll eventually reach 15 grains of my powder - slowly, even though CBC220 is more tolerant of a few extra grains.
I'll begin at 11 grains and see what happens, and I'll keep in mind the BD 15 gr limit....
Antonio

IF YOU READ THIS POST BEFORE, READ IT AGAIN - EDITED!

After checking out the load on QuickLoad (below, in this post), I looked up the load in the Lyman 49th Edition for a similar bullet: Lyman Cast # 429640 GC (gas check).
It lists Alliant Blue Dot Min. 10.5 gr. for 761 fps / MAX 11.7 gr. for 895 fps, 33200 psi with COL of 1.700".

For a Contender, MAX is 11.7 gr. for 1201 fps.

Loader Beware! I would start at around 10.5 with your powder, Antonio.

I've looked all over the Internet, in my books, and played with QuickLoad, too. With the load you are developing, I might even be hesitant to go above 14 grains of your powder (CBC 220) without careful inspection of the cartridges. And I would measure how high the powder comes up in your casing and then do the math (subtracting the depth of the bullet below the case mouth) to see if it is compressed, at 14 grains, before moving to 15 (since we don't know its density).
Remember, as the available space compresses, the pressure builds up.

You have a hard nut to crack; there is precious little information on your powder available anywhere, it would seem. Very odd. I hope it doesn't come to that here, as the anti-gunners continue to assault our hobby.

I even checked the few Portuguese sites that I could find that deal with handloading (using my second-language Spanish to translate what I could of their comments). It seems that most of their load suggestions and data are anecdotal at best, with your handgun powders (CBC 207, 210, 216, 217, 219, 220). And the .357 Magnum seems to get the most handgun coverage; at least what I found.

Incidentally, I found more than one person, hailing from Brazil, asking similar questions about their loads. The syntax was significantly different, so I'm pretty sure that at least some of them were not you using a different handle at the other sites.

I'll be sending you some stuff. Blue Dot seems to be similar, but not analagous, to CBC 220. You noted that there is a bit of a difference, and I could verify that elsewhere.

2400, as suggested at one or two USA based blog sites is definitely not a safe choice as a near companion powder - its safe loads are way different with different loads, even if it is safe to use as a metric for CBC 220 in others.