2005 Movie Trailer: "YAMATO" Battleship

[Old No7]

Wow, I really enjoyed this...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q4QWqDTCk2A

Now I've got to see if I can find a copy to watch!

I'm thinking maybe one of the guys I work with who's over in Tokyo can help me out.

If you like battleships and/or war movies, check this out!

Old Noy

[Hobie]

THAT is a tear-jerker of a war movie...

[Rusty]

Might I assume you can get it with English subtitles?

[Hobie]

Might I assume you can get it with English subtitles?

Yep. Watch it enough and I think you can pick up some Japanese.

I believe that Belle and Blade carries it.

[Blaine]

I guess I'm Duddly Downer, but I have problems conjuring up any sympathy for wartime enemies. I harbor zero animosity from day one after the treaty was signed, but not one second before.

[jeepnik]

I have to agree with Blaine. All of my uncles, except one who was turned down for medical reasons, served in the UNS during WWII. All but one are gone. The one still living spent a, blessedly short, time as a prisoner of the Japanese. He will not forget what he was subjected to. He will not forget those captured with him who did not survive that hell. He will never, never forgive.

I've heard folks tell him it was long ago and he should "move on". But, when the nightmares come, and they still do, it's only yesterday.

[Blaine]

I have to agree with Blaine. All of my uncles, except one who was turned down for medical reasons, served in the UNS during WWII. All but one are gone. The one still living spent a, blessedly short, time as a prisoner of the Japanese. He will not forget what he was subjected to. He will not forget those captured with him who did not survive that hell. He will never, never forgive.

I've heard folks tell him it was long ago and he should "move on". But, when the nightmares come, and they still do, it's only yesterday.

I had family on the Arizona. I dare say every Boomer had the family tree altered by WWII one way or the other.

[MrMurphy]

While the Japanese of the 1920s/30s were effectively brainwashed (various documentaries can attest to that)...... current Japanese basically are kept deliberately ignorant of WW2, somewhat like current Germans. That's just as bad.

[Ji in Hawaii]

Saw the movie, it was very interesting. Pretty decent CGI to create the Yamato. Japanese officers treated their enlisted men like stuff.
My dad was fighting the Japanese in the south Pacific from New Guinea through the Philippines for 3 years. He saw more terrible things than most can image allot of death and destruction firsthand. He was able to get over it and forgive. Funny how some so far removed from the war still hold grudges. If anyone bothers to actually do research into Japanese history they will see that the Frankenstein's monster that Japan became in the early 20th century was directly related to threats to it's sovereignty by first America with Commodore Perry's gunboat diplomacy which only encouraged Europeans powers to get into the act. Before Commadore Perry's arrival Japan just wanted to be left alone isolated from the rest of the world. Treaty with the US was forced upon them at gun point. Japan saw what the European powers did to China, India, Indo-China, East Indies, and the Philippines carving up and dividing up territories amongst themselves, and the only way to prevent European takeover was to modernize and strengthen it's military. Japan became a strong ally of the US in the east America using Japan as a buffer to prevent Russian expansionism into the east with Teddy Roosevelt's blessings. They were US allies in WWI. Japan followed the bad example of both European, and American expansionism and imperialism but when they started getting too powerful the Europeans and Americans through arms treaty basically told the Japanese to basically "do what we say not what we do." This lead to events that escalated into total war. The Japanese politicians of that time deserve to be hated but they are all dead. Totally different government rules Japan today from back then. You can't dehumanize a whole race just because they look different or did something years before you were even born. How many Americans boycotted "Das Boot" when it came out? Many feel Germans weren't as bad because they look like you. Some youths in America today even worship Nazi bass turds. I don't get it. Many young Japanese soldiers and sailors were scared kids too forced to fight a war they knew little about except the propaganda forced down their throats. They cried for their moms as they bled out too.
I HATE what the Japanese did in China the rape, pillage, plunder, and murder they committed but that is history. I also hate the rape, pillage, plunder, and murder Americans were guilty of in the Philippines during US occupation (More Filipinos killed by Americans than by the Japanese). That too is history. No nation has exclusive rights to brutality nor are any free of blood guilt.
I see today allot more Japanese actors taking an active role in telling the stories from this period not afraid to play the bad guys accurately rightfully vilifying individuals who well deserved it. These are Chinese produced movies so pull no punches in telling the truth of Japanese occupation. I give these Japanese allot of credit for having the courage to tell it like it was.
I recommend these movies:

Ip Man
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nhz4Jl6nf58
Warriors of the Rainbow- Seediq bale
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mWHWsiaLCUc&feature=fvst
The Flowers of War
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MV5rw3oTJMw

Learn from the past or risk repeating the mistakes.

[Washita]

Saw the movie, it was very interesting. Pretty decent CGI to create the Yamato. Japanese officers treated their enlisted men like stuff.
My dad was fighting the Japanese in the south Pacific from New Guinea through the Philippines for 3 years. He saw more terrible things than most can image allot of death and destruction firsthand. He was able to get over it and forgive. Funny how some so far removed from the war still hold grudges. If anyone bothers to actually do research into Japanese history they will see that the Frankenstein's monster that Japan became in the early 20th century was directly related to threats to it's sovereignty by first America with Commodore Perry's gunboat diplomacy which only encouraged Europeans powers to get into the act. Before Commadore Perry's arrival Japan just wanted to be left alone isolated from the rest of the world. Treaty with the US was forced upon them at gun point. Japan saw what the European powers did to China, India, Indo-China, East Indies, and the Philippines carving up and dividing up territories amongst themselves, and the only way to prevent European takeover was to modernize and strengthen it's military. Japan became a strong ally of the US in the east America using Japan as a buffer to prevent Russian expansionism into the east with Teddy Roosevelt's blessings. They were US allies in WWI. Japan followed the bad example of both European, and American expansionism and imperialism but when they started getting too powerful the Europeans and Americans through arms treaty basically told the Japanese to basically "do what we say not what we do." This lead to events that escalated into total war. The Japanese politicians of that time deserve to be hated but they are all dead. Totally different government rules Japan today from back then. You can't dehumanize a whole race just because they look different or did something years before you were even born. How many Americans boycotted "Das Boot" when it came out? Many feel Germans weren't as bad because they look like you. Some youths in America today even worship Nazi bass turds. I don't get it. Many young Japanese soldiers and sailors were scared kids too forced to fight a war they knew little about except the propaganda forced down their throats. They cried for their moms as they bled out too.
I HATE what the Japanese did in China the rape, pillage, plunder, and murder they committed but that is history. I also hate the rape, pillage, plunder, and murder Americans were guilty of in the Philippines during US occupation (More Filipinos killed by Americans than by the Japanese). That too is history. No nation has exclusive rights to brutality nor are any free of blood guilt.
I see today allot more Japanese actors taking an active role in telling the stories from this period not afraid to play the bad guys accurately rightfully vilifying individuals who well deserved it. These are Chinese produced movies so pull no punches in telling the truth of Japanese occupation. I give these Japanese allot of credit for having the courage to tell it like it was.


Learn from the past or risk repeating the mistakes.

Got it. The Pacific war was all our fault.

[Blaine]

Hate and racism? I think not The lines from third world Pelosi-holes lead TO America, not from it.

[Sixgun]

I'm no history expert but one thing for sure--if the Japs or the Germans had the nuke first and a lot of them, they would have killed every human being in North America.

Its a shame we only had 2.

[DixieBoy]

Ji - Though there's much you wrote which is true, I think that you've muddied up a few important facts. For the record, I don't hate the Japanese or Germans, though people of those countries tried thier best to kill my Dad during the war.

Your claim that Americans killed more Phillipino people during the occupation ? Do you mean after 1944 ? I hope that's not what you are saying, because it's patently false.

If you are referring to the fighting in the Phillipines during the Spanish-American War, and after, during the "Insurrection" and Moro Wars, then you are conflating two very different conflicts. The fighting in the Phillipines in both wars was truly awful. In the period from the late 1890' through the first decade of the 20th century, America was involved in what was a very controversial business, the occupation of the Phillipines. The fact that this even WAS controversial - here in America - during a time when all of the western European nations were gobbling up colonies all over the globe, says something good about America. We had an "Anti-Imperialist League" here in America, which fought and lost this debate, over whether America would occupy a foreign country or not. But you can't, with any honesty, say that this was America's intent from the outset.

Teddy Roosevelt was a big believer in the ideas and words of Alfred Thayer Mahan, who wrote The Influence of Sea Power. This was in the days before aviation. Roosevelt believed, and I think he was right, that a nation which wishes to be great, and trade wherever in the world it wishes, MUST be able to protect that trade. That means Navies, and bases to support those navies. History supported Teddy in those beliefs.

Once the Phillipines were liberated the Germans had plans to take the islands, if no other power stood in their way. The British told the Americans that they would take them rather than see the islands fall to the Germans. And so, we moved in, after helping the people of the Phillipines throw out the Spanish. No doubt, some might see this as "meet the new boss, same as the old boss," but it's the reality of how things happened back then. To view the situation with our thinking of today does a disservice to those from an earlier time. The fact is that, to most people throughout most of the world's history, conquest was a good thing, to be celebrated. We look at things decidedly differently today.

The Japanese embraced the European notions of conquest with gusto, and with their own notions of racial superiority. Hence, the ongoing bitter relations between many Japanese and the Koreans and Chinese. The regimes of the 1920's and 1930's also embraced a cruelty never seen before, in their mutation of bushido and samurai codes. This is why between 1 in 4 Americans POW's died at the hands of the Japanese, as compared to 1 in 25 American POW's of the Germans in World War Two.

I don't hold today's Japanese responsible for the cruelties of their ancestors. But those cruelties, or the imperialistic reasons for Japan's invasion of China, and all the rest of their behavior leading up to and during the war has NOT YET been addressed honestly by the Japanese government or in their schools. One of my good friends married a Japanese girl and lives near Chiba. His wife, now in her late 30's, never learned anything close to the truth about the war while in Japanese schools. The Germans, on the other hand, have had their Nazi past pushed into their faces (as well they should have) ever since 1945.

For several decades after the war my Dad would never have anything to do with Japanese cars, electronics, etc. He finally softened on the electronics, because by the 1990's it was getting hard to even find American electronics. I understand guys from his generation feeling a twinge when they saw a Mitsubishi (the maker of the infamous Zero fighter plane) car or truck on the road. Dad was no fan of the German's Volkswagen either. Those wounds take decades to heal, if they ever do. And while I don't hate younger generations of either country, I believe that we should never forget what happened during that war. Ever. - DixieBoy

[Blaine]

Ji - Though there's much you wrote which is true, I think that you've muddied up a few important facts. For the record, I don't hate the Japanese or Germans, though people of those countries tried thier best to kill my Dad during the war.

Your claim that Americans killed more Phillipino people during the occupation ? Do you mean after 1944 ? I hope that's not what you are saying, because it's patently false.

If you are referring to the fighting in the Phillipines during the Spanish-American War, and after, during the "Insurrection" and Moro Wars, then you are conflating two very different conflicts. The fighting in the Phillipines in both wars was truly awful. In the period from the late 1890' through the first decade of the 20th century, America was involved in what was a very controversial business, the occupation of the Phillipines. The fact that this even WAS controversial - here in America - during a time when all of the western European nations were gobbling up colonies all over the globe, says something good about America. We had an "Anti-Imperialist League" here in America, which fought and lost this debate, over whether America would occupy a foreign country or not. But you can't, with any honesty, say that this was America's intent from the outset.

Teddy Roosevelt was a big believer in the ideas and words of Alfred Thayer Mahan, who wrote The Influence of Sea Power. This was in the days before aviation. Roosevelt believed, and I think he was right, that a nation which wishes to be great, and trade wherever in the world it wishes, MUST be able to protect that trade. That means Navies, and bases to support those navies. History supported Teddy in those beliefs.

Once the Phillipines were liberated the Germans had plans to take the islands, if no other power stood in their way. The British told the Americans that they would take them rather than see the islands fall to the Germans. And so, we moved in, after helping the people of the Phillipines throw out the Spanish. No doubt, some might see this as "meet the new boss, same as the old boss," but it's the reality of how things happened back then. To view the situation with our thinking of today does a disservice to those from an earlier time. The fact is that, to most people throughout most of the world's history, conquest was a good thing, to be celebrated. We look at things decidedly differently today.

The Japanese embraced the European notions of conquest with gusto, and with their own notions of racial superiority. Hence, the ongoing bitter relations between many Japanese and the Koreans and Chinese. The regimes of the 1920's and 1930's also embraced a cruelty never seen before, in their mutation of bushido and samurai codes. This is why between 1 in 4 Americans POW's died at the hands of the Japanese, as compared to 1 in 25 American POW's of the Germans in World War Two.

I don't hold today's Japanese responsible for the cruelties of their ancestors. But those cruelties, or the imperialistic reasons for Japan's invasion of China, and all the rest of their behavior leading up to and during the war has NOT YET been addressed honestly by the Japanese government or in their schools. One of my good friends married a Japanese girl and lives near Chiba. His wife, now in her late 30's, never learned anything close to the truth about the war while in Japanese schools. The Germans, on the other hand, have had their Nazi past pushed into their faces (as well they should have) ever since 1945.

For several decades after the war my Dad would never have anything to do with Japanese cars, electronics, etc. He finally softened on the electronics, because by the 1990's it was getting hard to even find American electronics. I understand guys from his generation feeling a twinge when they saw a Mitsubishi (the maker of the infamous Zero fighter plane) car or truck on the road. Dad was no fan of the German's Volkswagen either. Those wounds take decades to heal, if they ever do. And while I don't hate younger generations of either country, I believe that we should never forget what happened during that war. Ever. - DixieBoy

Yes....this....That's what I wanted to say. My Korean Wife's Grandmother had her breasts cut off by Japs when she fought being raped

[Old Ironsights]

I liked "Das Boot" too...

War is largely the same game for the individual pawns...

[Ji in Hawaii]

Got it. The Pacific war was all our fault.

WOW, Really? How about Europe, that too? WWII in Europe was actually WWI part two. German resentment at their unfair treatment in the treaty of Versailles aided the despot Hitler to come to power. As terrible as Hitler was he did restore German pride which had been taken away by that treaty.

[Ji in Hawaii]

I'm no history expert but one thing for sure--if the Japs or the Germans had the nuke first and a lot of them, they would have killed every human being in North America.

Its a shame we only had 2.

Yah but if we nuked every living Jap back then there would be no Japchesters today to trash talk.

[Ji in Hawaii]

Many good points, thank you.

Ji - Though there's much you wrote which is true, I think that you've muddied up a few important facts. For the record, I don't hate the Japanese or Germans, though people of those countries tried thier best to kill my Dad during the war.

The Japs tried their best to kill my Dad too, and the Germans did succeed in killing my uncle shot down over North Africa in a B-26 in '43

Your claim that Americans killed more Phillipino people during the occupation ? Do you mean after 1944 ?

Nope I mean the first 2 decades of American occupation.

If you are referring to the fighting in the Phillipines during the Spanish-American War, and after, during the "Insurrection" and Moro Wars, then you are conflating two very different conflicts. The fighting in the Phillipines in both wars was truly awful. In the period from the late 1890' through the first decade of the 20th century, America was involved in what was a very controversial business, the occupation of the Phillipines. But you can't, with any honesty, say that this was America's intent from the outset.

The Filipino freedom fighters had all but defeated the Spanish and had them pretty much trapped in the fortified capitol of Manila by the time the US Navy arrived. US promises of assistance in the fight for Filipino independence was under false pretense and they stealthfully made a secret surrender deal with the Spanish bypassing the Filipinos. Yes I honestly believe it was the US intent from the outset to increase there power and presence in the Pacific by occupying and colonizing as much land as possible. Naval power needs naval bases, and naval bases need land and supplies. The doctrine of Manifest Destiny did not stop at the Westcoast after the bulldozing through, and destruction of native peoples and cultures. The Illegal takeover of the Kingdom of Hawaii and crown lands was continuation of this doctrine westward. American idea of "empire" building was going strong despite minor opposition back home.

Teddy Roosevelt was a big believer in the ideas and words of Alfred Thayer Mahan, who wrote The Influence of Sea Power. This was in the days before aviation. Roosevelt believed, and I think he was right, that a nation which wishes to be great, and trade wherever in the world it wishes, MUST be able to protect that trade. That means Navies, and bases to support those navies. History supported Teddy in those beliefs.

End justifies the means? Americans had concentration camps in the Philippines decades before the Nazis ever thought of the idea. Whole villages were destroyed including the inhabitants, and Filipinos were considered "bush niggers" not fit for self rule. Being viewed as subhumans justified murder to many. I have read experiences of US soldiers shooting at Filipino children for sport. The Moros in Mindanao never did stop fighting the Spanish since Magellan's time and just continued on with the new American occupiers. On Luzon the Filipino revolutionaries were betrayed and lied to which lead to the fight carrying over to the new occupiers.

Once the Phillipines were liberated the Germans had plans to take the islands, if no other power stood in their way. The British told the Americans that they would take them rather than see the islands fall to the Germans. And so, we moved in, after helping the people of the Phillipines throw out the Spanish. No doubt, some might see this as "meet the new boss, same as the old boss," but it's the reality of how things happened back then. To view the situation with our thinking of today does a disservice to those from an earlier time.

I doubt the Germans seriously considered such a plan. They could have easily taken over any number of other fledgling third world countries before this with less difficulty. The British gave the Americans their approval? What gave the Brits that right? Because they were the biggest bullies on Earth at the time? To the Brits at this time Germany was their biggest rival. Sounds like just another excuse to justify conquering & occupation. US did not help the Filipino people defeat the Spanish they prevented the Filipino people from defeating the Spanish and gaining real independence. I agree it was the reality of how things happened back then but it doesn't make it right.

The fact is that, to most people throughout most of the world's history, conquest was a good thing, to be celebrated. We look at things decidedly differently today.

Only by the victors, not the oppressed.

The Japanese embraced the European notions of conquest with gusto, and with their own notions of racial superiority. Hence, the ongoing bitter relations between many Japanese and the Koreans and Chinese. The regimes of the 1920's and 1930's also embraced a cruelty never seen before, in their mutation of bushido and samurai codes. This is why between 1 in 4 Americans POW's died at the hands of the Japanese, as compared to 1 in 25 American POW's of the Germans in World War Two.

No argument there, the Japs followed the bad example and carried it even further in depravity. The Japanese politicos resurrected and corrupted the concept of Bushido that they themselves help abolish decades before during the Meiji restoration with a new label "Yamato Damashi" an ideal that their ancestors surely would have disapproved of. Absolutely no justification for their cruelty and they should have suffered many deaths for it. Many Japanese individuals (even war veterans) are admitting to the cruelties of their past but as a nation Japan needs work.

I don't hold today's Japanese responsible for the cruelties of their ancestors. But those cruelties, or the imperialistic reasons for Japan's invasion of China, and all the rest of their behavior leading up to and during the war has NOT YET been addressed honestly by the Japanese government or in their schools. One of my good friends married a Japanese girl and lives near Chiba. His wife, now in her late 30's, never learned anything close to the truth about the war while in Japanese schools. The Germans, on the other hand, have had their Nazi past pushed into their faces (as well they should have) ever since 1945.

The American government has not honestly and adequately addressed their less than stellar treatment of native peoples, Mexicans in conquered territory, murder of Filipino civilians, and the illegal takeover of the the Kingdom of Hawai'i. Does not justify the neglect on this matter by the Japanese but they are not the only ones guilty.

For several decades after the war my Dad would never have anything to do with Japanese cars, electronics, etc. He finally softened on the electronics, because by the 1990's it was getting hard to even find American electronics. I understand guys from his generation feeling a twinge when they saw a Mitsubishi (the maker of the infamous Zero fighter plane) car or truck on the road. Dad was no fan of the German's Volkswagen either. Those wounds take decades to heal, if they ever do. And while I don't hate younger generations of either country, I believe that we should never forget what happened during that war. Ever. - DixieBoy

Some wounds never heal, and justifiably so. Many Koreans and Chinese still hate the Japanese with a deep passion. What helped my dad in the healing process was his being stationed in Japan as an occupation force right after the surrender. When first landing om Japanese shores he had nothing positive to say about the Japanese but it was the Japanese children that befriended him while the adults hid in the hills which really helped his heart heal. He still had nightmares decades later but his hate subsided considerably with time there, he forgave but never did forget. Those that returned to the states never had this exposure so many never healed to the extent my dad did. Amen, learn from history so history does not repeat itself.

[Rusty]

While we may disagree on certain "facts" and their effect throughout history one thing remains a constant, the victor gets to write the history. This is true in any war be it the War of Northern Aggression, the Pacific theater, the European theater or any other other controversy you care to raise. I think we all have certain insights due to the people we know and love and their involvement.
My own father was a staff sgt. in the U.S. Army occupation forces in Japan after WWII. He never saw combat but did as he was ordered. I think he saw the people of Japan who were forced to carry out the wishes of their Gov't. He harbored no ill will, and thought they were a beautiful people.

[Ji in Hawaii]

Yes....this....That's what I wanted to say. My Korean Wife's Grandmother had her breasts cut off by Japs when she fought being raped

Many Japs were brutal monsters absolutely no argument there. Their policy of comfort women was barbaric. My dad wen through Nanking right after the surrender and heard firsthand stories of the brutalities and atrocities committed by Jap troops there. I don't believe in hell but if any people deserved to go to such a place it was these troops.

[Ji in Hawaii]

While we may disagree on certain "facts" and their effect throughout history one thing remains a constant, the victor gets to write the history. This is true in any war be it the War of Northern Aggression, the Pacific theater, the European theater or any other other controversy you care to raise. I think we all have certain insights due to the people we know and love and their involvement.
My own father was a staff sgt. in the U.S. Army occupation forces in Japan after WWII. He never saw combat but did as he was ordered. I think he saw the people of Japan who were forced to carry out the wishes of their Gov't. He harbored no ill will, and thought they were a beautiful people.

The world today is a better place because of who the victors were back then. Japan is a better place today because they lost the war, Japan is a better place today because American forces prevented the Soviets from splitting Japan into North & South like they did Korea. MacArthur sent US Troops into Hokkaido to prevent this from happening after the Soviets already took Sakhalin island, and the Kurile Islands from Japan shortly after the surrender.

[Blaine]

Yes....this....That's what I wanted to say. My Korean Wife's Grandmother had her breasts cut off by Japs when she fought being raped

Many Japs were brutal monsters absolutely no argument there. Their policy of comfort women was barbaric. My dad wen through Nanking right after the surrender and heard firsthand stories of the brutalities and atrocities committed by Jap troops there. I don't believe in hell but if any people deserved to go to such a place it was these troops.

War: It is what it is......I'm just a fella that's on the Home Team...My Country, right or wrong. That's all.....Our guys in Stinky-Stan are getting pulled thru the PC BS. Our Country doesn't deserve those Men and Gals....every single one of them regardless what they've been charged with just to kiss a little buttocks for the State Department.

[DixieBoy]

Ji - I just got a chance to take a quick look at your responses. No big arguments here from me, but maybe just one little observation.

One of my big gripes with the recently departed "historian" Howard Zinn is that I believe he was fundamentally dishonest. He wrote about awful this, and awful that, treatment which the Americans meted out to American Indians. While incidents like the Sand Creek Massacre of November 29, 1864 against the Cheyenne might be related factually correctly, his presentation always included a HUGE hole. And that hole was the offering of any perspective. He also was guilty of the sin of omission, like not providing any background to the Sand Creek Massacre, namely the string of horrific attacks by Cheyenne Dog Soldiers on settlers and migrating families in the area which is now Colorado, which took place in the months before Sand Creek. No effort to let readers know that these very Dog Soldiers were in Black Kettle's camp at Sand Creek, and he had admitted both before and after the attack that he had many young men (these Dog Soldiers) who he could not control, and that these same Dog Soldiers would return directly to his camps after slaughtering several families. The bodies of many of these victims were seen by the citizens of Denver. But Zinn made no attempt to understand or present the rage, felt by both sides. Just a horrific early morning attack by the evil white Americans. That's a shameful way to teach history, and Zinn was the champion of this dishonesty.

Thomas Sowell has written alot about this stuff. He's the first guy that I know of who basically said (I'm paraphrasing here, bigtime) that the known history of human beings for thousands of years has been killing for land, profit, and advantage. Tribes, groups of people, and whole nations, killing for some gain. And throw in lots of rape and looting. "Conquest and Cultures" is one of his books that gets into this. The same thing with slavery. Ask most public school students in America who started slavery, or who was guilty over slavery, and they'll tell you that it was the Americans. Because that's what they've been taught, by teachers either too ignorant or too wrapped up in their own political agenda to tell the kids that slavery has existed for thousands of years. That for thousands of years, slavery, which we all believe to today to be an un-defendable evil, was what happened to those people who were defeated in war, and had their lives spared. They became the property of those who had defeated them. Americans sure as heck didn't invent this institution. But most American school kids for decades have been taught that they should be ashamed of their country because of slavery and the conquest of the American Indian.

A picture is painted for these kids of Indians all sitting around a campfire singing Kum-by-ya... and then here come the evil white guys to kill them all. History is so much more involved than that. I believe that we can present our history honestly and still instill pride in young and old people today. But not until the perspective issue is addressed.

It's only been in the last century or more that people even began to question the morality of this stuff. That's what I meant in my earlier post. Indian tribes were no different, often waging wholesale war on neighboring tribes over turf and because it was how many young men could gain status in the tribes which were essentially warrior societies. No one admires the bravery and the many incredible stories of the Lakota people during the Indian Wars period more than I do. But I would be a huge liar if I said that the Lakota did not wage horrific war on their neighbors the Pawnee and the Crow tribes. This is one example of what I mean when I say that guys like Howard Zinn never offered their readers or students perspective. It's just a set of innocent good guys, and then those nasty, evil bad guys. That's just dishonest. And guys like Zinn set the tone for what's been taught in classrooms for decades. That's criminal to my thinking. - DixieBoy

[Ji in Hawaii]

I'm looking forward to the fulfillment of this prophecy from Isaiah:
And he will certainly render judgment among the nations and set matters straight respecting many peoples. And they will have to beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning shears. Nation will not lift up sword against nation, neither will they learn war anymore. Isaiah 2:4

[Blaine]

Ji, that sounds like a One World Gubment under the Anti-Christ, which means it's close to the end Unless, of course, you're jonesing for that sort of thing

[Ji in Hawaii]

Ji, that sounds like a One World Gubment under the Anti-Christ, which means it's close to the end Unless, of course, you're jonesing for that sort of thing

Isaiah 2:4 above is speaking of one World Government under Christ Jesus rule, so does Daniel 2:44.
“And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be brought to ruin. And the kingdom itself will not be passed on to any other people. It will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, and it itself will stand to times indefinite; Daniel 2:44


The Wild Beast aka the UN uses the very words taken in vain from Isaiah to it's own credit.

And I saw a wild beast ascending out of the sea, with ten horns and seven heads, and upon its horns ten diadems, but upon its heads blasphemous names.  Now the wild beast that I saw was like a leopard, but its feet were as those of a bear, and its mouth was as a lion’s mouth. And the dragon gave to [the beast] its power and its throne and great authority.
And I saw one of its heads as though slaughtered to death, but its death-stroke got healed, and all the earth followed the wild beast with admiration.  And they worshiped the dragon because it gave the authority to the wild beast, and they worshiped the wild beast with the words: “Who is like the wild beast, and who can do battle with it?” Revelation 13:1-4

[El Chivo]

While I do feel some sympathy for some of the grunts and sailors who went down in such numbers, the society they were a part of was as evil as it gets. I think things like the slaughter in Shanghai and Nanking, Death March, and treatment of POW's is where a society shows its true colors. But more than that, their intent in expanding their empire was not for prosperity and trade but slavery. If it had come off, Asia would be a feudal society with the Japanese at the top and all other races enslaved.

The Germans were just as bad; I don't give them a pass because they look like me. Although there was some degree of chivalry between Germans and their Western enemies, the German intent was exactly the same, to take a country and then enslave the population, and create a world where they were at the top like feudal lords.

Both had grandiose plans to take over the entire world, the Japanese had the Tanaka plan and the Germans had their university professors. Nazism had a pretty good following in South America, it could well have spread to Mexico.

Interesting that the little people in both populations were practically slaves themselves. I caught from one documentary that Japanese war workers were paid 1 yen per day for an 18 hour day.

Anyway, I can't imagine anything worse than a society that intends to create subhumans out of humans. Imagine if they'd won.

[Sixgun]

Thats what I like about this board--we sure have some knowledgable dudes here. I got quite a history lesson here. Thank you Ji, Dixie Boy and others. My deductions:

There are always two sides to every story. The Americans always did have a good way of manipulating a cause to where the other nation "struck back" and made them look bad.

Man is man at whatever race you are. Its the ones with the biggest guns who are the winners.

I believe that all humans have a built in moral code. I have read where some German soliers committed suicide before they would shoot innocent civilians.
I read where some Japanese soldiers risked their own lives by giving American POW's extra food. But I just "read" these things. I was not there.

Well, I'm going shooting while you guys debate whats going to happen anyway until the end of time-----war, killing, manipulation, deception, etc, etc........Sixgun

[Washita]

Got it. The Pacific war was all our fault.

WOW, Really? How about Europe, that too? WWII in Europe was actually WWI part two. German resentment at their unfair treatment in the treaty of Versailles aided the despot Hitler to come to power. As terrible as Hitler was he did restore German pride which had been taken away by that treaty.

Umm--are you familiar with the word "sarcasm?" I can't believe you think I really meant that.

[gak]

Yes Washita was just sarcastically responding

Very good thread. While nothing (in the end) justifies barbarism, as some have pointed out (in oher threads) regarding our conflicts over in the sand box(es), when adversaries you despise and don't respect to begin with have just killed or maimed your buddies, emotions rage and "things" happen. Even understandably as an outside observer, even though ultimately it is wrong. And..you can carry those sentiments on to a larger scale--nation vs nation.

Regarding post war in the PTO, we were stationed in Japan only sixteen years after the surrender on the Missouri--1961-64--just a blink of the eye in hindsight perspective, but a "world away" then. Our concerns, militarily, by then were very much with the Cold War and then very quickly on the cusp of Vietnam, both of which my father, a high ranking officer, dealt with daily,...but we were also aware of WWII and its impacts on both sides. Most Japanese by then were outwardly pro American and very gracious hosts to our presence. We made close friends-even "family"-with several, including our maid and her two teen kids. Occasionally we would run across a curmudgeon old soldier silently grumbling or family still harboring resentment over their losses at our hands, but they were the small minority. Eeery in hindsight, we were only forty or so miles from Nagasaki (and one of our by-then major Naval bases Sasebo), and our airbase had had been a Japanese base (that we bombed in B-29 runs). Our island, Kyushu was the southernmost of the main ones, and--as it turns out--had been the main "beach-head" for our pre-bomb invasion plans. You shudder to think of the additional losses--on both sides--had we not dropped the two bombs we did.

Surreal looking back, this was my playground--a kid's paradise then, on some of those very Normandy-like beaches still complete with pillboxes with rusted gun emplacements and remnants of "tank crosses" in the surf, and such. While I was young yet to fully appreciate the seriousness of the war (obviously), a visit to Nagasaki was a sobering and maturing experience. To the "tourist," the city looked like nothing had happened--with lush foliage and completely rebuilt. Ground zero had a simple large sign in English and Japanese explaining without political coloring/bias what happened there, next to the "precise" ground zero point, a brick church (Christian) partial walls still standing but in ruins, over which the bomb burst, and a museum on site chronicled the physical impacts. I rememeber--with parents corroborating with (same) their adult perspective--Japanese visiting with, from what we could tell, no resentment or finger- pointing on their part. They were fellow human beings co-witnessing the horrors of war, without regard to skin color or eye shape. However, nearby at our naval base we quartered at over the weekend, youth protests ran in the streets over the nuclear (part) of our Polaris (IIRC) subs which had come into port, bringing home the reality of the war a decade and a half over.

Our maid's brother was a Kamikazee pilot who died over Okinawa, unknown as to whether he was "successful" in his fatal flight, but one can only imagine. She described his service in limited broken English, then emotionally - "joto nai, joto nai!" - no good. She said the same to me when I "flew" my big model B-29 around the house, wagging her finger at me, though she tolerated my other planes, tanks and soldiers. She knew her boss, my father, had been a pilot (but hadn't bombed her home), but I'm sure we didn't reveal specifically he was a B-29 instructor pilot who had very likely trained those that did. One of my father's colleagues had been a combat B-29 pilot, but most of his missions had been industrial cities on the main island Honshu. (Remember we're talking a country whose ifour main islands collectively were the size of California. So it was like we were in San Diego or LA, and he was bombing Monterey and San Francisco--at most). One of his best buddies was a ground pounder killed in Okinawa by a suicide grenader. According to my father, at first during his tour in Japan he wasn't into forgiving much, and regretted his assignment there, but by mid tour in Japan he had largely turned himself around.

"Merry Christmas!" was scripted complete with pine boughs and holly berries in "Ginza" and village (picture Shogun style, still--but with TV antennas) shop windows all over--everywhere we went, not just base-side, and made us feel pretty at home (That was both smart marketing capitalism on shop owners' part at least, but also an ode to a "modest (size) but significant" Christian segment of their society as well.

Teen Japanese kids we befriended and regularly played "war" with (unbelievably now) wanted "to be the Americans--John Wayne" becuse you won!--and whined and sulked when we insisted we were remaining the U.S.! When we changed Theaters of Operation, we made them be the Germans also! Not happy campers at first but they soldiered on. They were very sad when we moved on base from the rice paddies, but we had our means of communication to stay in touch. "Secret" notes we passed on to these kids near our old home ten miles off base arranged for them to attack our base--the eastern perimeter as I remember--one Saturday morning, which they did yelling Banzai with sticks and dirt clods, scaling out fence with Alamo-like ladders, as we fought back with shields and swords and dirt clod sling shots of our own. The MPs showed up to scatter all of us, sending our enemy scurrying home. That night, my father said at the dinner table "ahem, we had an incident at the fence today. You wouldn't know anything about that would you?" Just folks.

All of which is to say, at the time of the War, the decades-long brainwashing of the populace had been such "they knew not what they did" though it's been understandably argued "they should have." Still, it's a tough one all the way around, no matter how you look at it. Doesn't justify it, just explains it. Like our surviving veterans sadly are growing smaller in number by the day, so too are the folk that participated on the Japanese side, as combatants or on the home front. I agree entirely that the Japanese schooling has not to date "reconciled" true history in terms of the awful role their country played in the world in the first half of the 20th Century. Doesn't diminish intervening and current generations worthiness as fellow human beings now...like anyone, 'til they prove themselves otherwise.

[Ji in Hawaii]

Umm--are you familiar with the word "sarcasm?" I can't believe you think I really meant that.

Of course it was sarcasm, so was my response.

[Ji in Hawaii]

Interesting that the little people in both populations were practically slaves themselves. I caught from one documentary that Japanese war workers were paid 1 yen per day for an 18 hour day.

Anyway, I can't imagine anything worse than a society that intends to create subhumans out of humans. Imagine if they'd won.

The Japanese military held little value not just for other races but even their own men. They abandoned 130,000 troops in New Guinea to their doom. The US attacks on the heavily fortified Chichi Jima (150 miles north of Iwo Jima) resulted in many downed US pilots by AA fire. The Japanese there had a bird's eye view of surrounding waters and they were always dumbfounded at the efforts the Americans made and risks taken to recover downed pilots. To them every soldier, sailor, and pilot were expendable.

[gak]

Surviving POWs incarcerated in Japan later reported they were reviled by the populace, sneered at and spit upon--not only for the bombings, etc, but that our guys had surrendered. We had a helluvatime reconciling that behavior with the people we met a mere sixteen years later. On a weekend drive up the coast, we visited Ashiya, an ex-Korean War base (like ours). We stood there on the tarmac in the fog and rain looking at an entire squadron of F-86s arranged noses toward us, all with the ubiquitous "meatball" on the fuselages...we'd given them over to the Japanese Air Defense Command when we transitioned to F-100s.
In the 60s, West German AF pilots were trained in T-28s/F-5s at our base here in the Phoenix area. I remember being a little puzzled when I said to my dad as we watched some of them scramble to their planes, "didn't we just fight these guys?!" I'm sure some of them were direct descendants of Luftwaffe pilots and soldiers of the Wermacht. Strange world.

[Old Ironsights]

... "didn't we just fight these guys?!"...

No you fight the Pawns of a Government. Some may be "True Believers", most aren't. Most are trying to stay alive and not be arrested/killed by their OWN side for not really wanting to fight either...

Wars should be fought by Politicians in a big arena, not by conscripts in homes & fields...

[Blaine]

... "didn't we just fight these guys?!"...

No you fight the Pawns of a Government. Some may be "True Believers", most aren't. Most are trying to stay alive and not be arrested/killed by their OWN side for not really wanting to fight either...

Wars should be fought by Politicians in a big arena, not by conscripts in homes & fields...

You would be surprised at the Re-Up rate of those that have deployed more than once To utter a phrase like "pawns of the Gubment" is disrespectful.

http://www.defense.gov/news/newsarticle.aspx?id=64482
A person can complete a full college career, and/or have a rewarding career in the military. I stayed the full twenty and I assure you, I never felt duped

[Old Ironsights]

... "didn't we just fight these guys?!"...

No you fight the Pawns of a Government. Some may be "True Believers", most aren't. Most are trying to stay alive and not be arrested/killed by their OWN side for not really wanting to fight either...

Wars should be fought by Politicians in a big arena, not by conscripts in homes & fields...

You would be surprised at the Re-Up rate of those that have deployed more than once To utter a phrase like "pawns of the Gubment" is disrespectful.

But true none the less... and I'm one of those who would have re-upped had I been allowed.

The point remains, wars are started by politicians and fought by their pawns - willing or otherwise.

Have you ever spent any time in close proximity to your "enemy" when not in a shooting conflict? I have. I got stuck in a hotel in Frankfurt on VIP duty alongside my Soviet counterparts (pre Glastnost/Berlin wall fall).

They were just Guys, and we had a ball (since we were not allowed to leave the Hotel, all we could do was hang out in the bar...). Our MI guy and their Zampolit were perpetually grumpy, but we had a blast.

Our evenings would always begin with a traditional "Capitalist Pig/Communist Dog" insult followed by "Tonight we Drink, Tomorrow we kill each other..."

[Blaine]

Well, I was stationed about 30 miles south of the DMZ in South Korea, where North Koreans were shooting every day, and made forays into the south killing ROK personnel on a regular basis. I got there shortly after the Tree Cutting Fiasco, and we were on a short re-call for alert 24-7....The only thing North Koreans wanted to do both times I was here was to drink my blood As long as the Wall was up, the Allied sector of Berlin had one recourse, and one only in case of USSR invasion thru the Fulda Gap: Spike the guns and wait to be taken prisoner (survival was doubtful due to tac nukes and nerve gas). You read too much BS.

[Old Ironsights]

Well, I was stationed about 30 miles south of the DMZ in South Korea, where North Koreans were shooting every day, and made forays into the south killing ROK personnel on a regular basis. I got there shortly after the Tree Cutting Fiasco, and we were on a short re-call for alert 24-7....The only thing North Koreans wanted to do both times I was here was to drink my blood As long as the Wall was up, the Allied sector of Berlin had one recourse, and one only in case of USSR invasion thru the Fulda Gap: Spike the guns and wait to be taken prisoner (survival was doubtful due to tac nukes and nerve gas). You read too much BS.

What BS am I reading? My normal duty in Germany had me in a Hide IN the Fulda Gap.

I just got detached to Frankfurt because I could set up/troubleshoot a VAX.

IMO you can't count ANY situation involving NK anyway because there is a significantly different level of Programming that goes on there than was ever the case in the Soviet Military.

[Blaine]

Well, I was stationed about 30 miles south of the DMZ in South Korea, where North Koreans were shooting every day, and made forays into the south killing ROK personnel on a regular basis. I got there shortly after the Tree Cutting Fiasco, and we were on a short re-call for alert 24-7....The only thing North Koreans wanted to do both times I was here was to drink my blood As long as the Wall was up, the Allied sector of Berlin had one recourse, and one only in case of USSR invasion thru the Fulda Gap: Spike the guns and wait to be taken prisoner (survival was doubtful due to tac nukes and nerve gas). You read too much BS.

What BS am I reading? My normal duty in Germany had me in a Hide IN the Fulda Gap.

I just got detached to Frankfurt because I could set up/troubleshoot a VAX.

IMO you can't count ANY situation involving NK anyway because there is a significantly different level of Programming that goes on there than was ever the case in the Soviet Military.

You're beer drinking buddies would have slit your throat or popped nuke on your azz in half a heartbeat, as you would have theirs....The BS I refer to is your current political brainwashing....

[Old Ironsights]

Well, I was stationed about 30 miles south of the DMZ in South Korea, where North Koreans were shooting every day, and made forays into the south killing ROK personnel on a regular basis. I got there shortly after the Tree Cutting Fiasco, and we were on a short re-call for alert 24-7....The only thing North Koreans wanted to do both times I was here was to drink my blood As long as the Wall was up, the Allied sector of Berlin had one recourse, and one only in case of USSR invasion thru the Fulda Gap: Spike the guns and wait to be taken prisoner (survival was doubtful due to tac nukes and nerve gas). You read too much BS.

What BS am I reading? My normal duty in Germany had me in a Hide IN the Fulda Gap.

I just got detached to Frankfurt because I could set up/troubleshoot a VAX.

IMO you can't count ANY situation involving NK anyway because there is a significantly different level of Programming that goes on there than was ever the case in the Soviet Military.

You're beer drinking buddies would have slit your throat or popped nuke on your azz in half a heartbeat, as you would have theirs....The BS I refer to is your current political brainwashing....

We recognized that. Thus the joke/black humor. But they/I would have been doing in on Political Orders, not because I disliked them as. People or because they deserved it.

[Old No7]

Who would have thought this would become one of the "most popular" posts that I've ever started...

I still would like to see the movie -- now that I've "read the book" up above.

Old No7

[Panzercat]

that the Frankenstein's monster that Japan became in the early 20th century was directly related to threats to it's sovereignty by first America with Commodore Perry's gunboat diplomacy which only encouraged Europeans powers to get into the act. Before Commadore Perry's arrival Japan just wanted to be left alone isolated from the rest of the world.

Japan was hardly entirely innocent or 'just wanted to be left alone'. And lets get some fact straight; this is the internet age. It's not hard to research stuff now and days--

The purpose of the [White Fleet] was multifaceted. At home and on the world stage it demonstrated that the US had become a major seapower, it provided an opportunity to improve the seaworthiness of the fleet, and it served as a showpiece of American goodwill visiting numerous countries and harbors. In addition, specifically as Japan had arisen as a major seapower with the 1905 annihilation of the Russian fleet at Tsushima, it sent a message to Tokyo that the American fleet could be deployed anywhere, even from its Atlantic ports, and would be able to defend American interests in the Philippines and the Pacific.

On 8 February 1904 destroyers of the Imperial Japanese Navy launched a surprise attack on the Russian Far East Fleet anchored in Port Arthur; 3 ships—2 battleships and a cruiser—were damaged in the attack. The Russo-Japanese war had thus begun. Japan's first objective was to secure its lines of communication and supply to the Asian mainland, enabling it to conduct a ground war in Manchuria.

Japan was already an expansionist power well before the US began to grow int the pacific. Imperial Japan had always had their eyes on SE Asia. They were already bumping heads with Imperial Russia. The powers that be in the US were natually worried and part of the purpose of that trip was to ensure the Japanese knew we could answer any potential ambition. I love the Japanese culture as it stands today. They have a beautiful and unique lore. But don't be blind to the more unsavory aspects of their imperialism that started long before Admiral Perry showed up.


On a side note, did you know Kyoto was original the slated as the target for the second atomic bomb? That beautiful city (I've been there) and its important cultural significance would have been little more than ash save the efforts of a single man in Washington who had honeymooned there before the war. It's an interesting read.

[Old Ironsights]

...On a side note, did you know Kyoto was original the slated as the target for the second atomic bomb? That beautiful city (I've been there) and its important cultural significance would have been little more than ash save the efforts of a single man in Washington who had honeymooned there before the war. It's an interesting read.

Well, then we would have just had to deal with the Nagasaki Accords on Greenhouse Emissions ...

[Washita]

Umm--are you familiar with the word "sarcasm?" I can't believe you think I really meant that.

Of course it was sarcasm, so was my response.

Glad to get that cleared up.

[MrMurphy]

Everything changes, and nothing changes.


Friend of mine did a tour in Iraq. He still has absolutely zero respect or care for any Arab. I can differentiate between them all, but I still distrust all of them, including the ones technically on our side. With reason.



If you want "odd"..... I currently work with a former East German SAM radar-intercept technician.......

He manned a SAM site along the E. German border watching for SR-71s. He found out what my job was (20+ years after he did his time) and we had some interesting talks. He was 25 when the wall came down.

As to the Japanese, I ended up giving a ride to a Japanese colonel one day while deployed, he was visiting the CAOC (where the air war was run from) basically seeing how we did things. It was a little weird.


On the W. German pilots..... Erich Hartmann, the most successful fighter pilot of all time (352 kills) rejoined the Luftwaffe when it was reformed and served another 10-15 years. As most of his kills (somewhere around 200+) were against Russians, you could say he knew his enemy real well. Yeah, he shot down quite a few of our guys as well, but it was war, and he was defending his country.

I won't give a guy any stuff for doing his job, as far as I know, he wasn't involved in any atrocities.

[Ji in Hawaii]

that the Frankenstein's monster that Japan became in the early 20th century was directly related to threats to it's sovereignty by first America with Commodore Perry's gunboat diplomacy which only encouraged Europeans powers to get into the act. Before Commadore Perry's arrival Japan just wanted to be left alone isolated from the rest of the world.

Japan was hardly entirely innocent or 'just wanted to be left alone'. And lets get some fact straight; this is the internet age. It's not hard to research stuff now and days--
But don't be blind to the more unsavory aspects of their imperialism that started long before Admiral Perry showed up.

I never stated or implied that Japan was entirely or any other way innocent, quite to the contrary. And YES, Japan did want to be left alone. Sorry but your "facts" are pretty messed up. You obviously have done little or no research on Japanese history prior to this post. I have been a student of Japanese history for 40+ years. Japan prior to the Meiji Restoration of 1868 was ruled by the Tokugawa Shogunate from 1603 to 1868. If you did ANY research you would know that from 1641 to 1853 (when Commodore Perry forced a treaty with a the Shogunate at gunpoint), the Tokugawa shogunate of Japan enforced a policy which it called kaikin. The policy prohibited foreign contact with most outside countries with limited-scale trade and diplomatic relations only through the one port of Nagasaki, and only with the Dutch, China, and Korea. Japan wanted to be left alone, and cut off most contact with the outside world. Your statement that Japanese Imperialism started before Commodore (not admiral) Perry's arrival in 1853 is total fallacy.
Perry's Arrival is what started the fears of foreign takeover which lead to the Meiji restoration, and the rest is history. Any events after the 1868 Meiji Restoration only supports the facts I already presented in my previous posts. Please do some real research before you post.

[Blaine]

Not trying to be difficult, but Japan and Korea were mixing it up fairly often thru history. Great naval battles and invasions mostly started by Japan....Or not??

[Ji in Hawaii]

Not trying to be difficult, but Japan and Korea were mixing it up fairly often thru history. Great naval battles and invasions mostly started by Japan....Or not??

Not fairly often, just twice in 1593 and 1598, and this was before the rule of Tokugawa Shogunate who started the isolationism policy. This was during the rule of Toyotomi Hideyoshi the first person to unify all of Japan. Japan was made up of warring fiefdoms prior to this. Hideyoshi after uniting Japan was already getting along in years and wanted a legacy to be remembered by, and to also keep his former enemy fiefdoms in line so he had this great idea to invade and conquer Ming China. He had no quarrel with Korea but requested of the Korea kingdom safe passage through of his troop into China. He was refused numerous times so he forced the issue and landed his troops in Korea in 1592. In the following year his battle hardened troops had little difficultly overrunning the Korea ground troops and in 4 months reached Pyongyang close to the Chinese border and occupied most of the country. His supply lines were stretched beyond capacity and after Chinese troops finally arrived to aid the Koreans (their vassal) and the war reached a deadlock, and after the conclusion of a cease-fire agreement, Japanese troops retreated back to Japan. Toyotomi's second attempt at invasion was met with a now better prepared foe. The Korean naval forces and ships were superior to Toyotomi's so any land victories became a moot point. Toyotomi's dream of conquering China fell apart. Toyotomi Hideyoshi died September 18, 1598. Because of his failure to capture Korea, Hideyoshi's forces were unable to invade China. Rather than strengthen his position, the military expeditions left his clan's coffers and fighting strength depleted, his vassals at odds over responsibility for the failure, and the clans that were loyal to the Toyotomi name weakened. Toyotomi's rival Ieyasu Tokugawa won a decisive battle over the remaining Toyotomi forces at the battle of Sekigahara on October 21, 1600, and the Tokugawa Shogunate came to power to rule over Japan in peace for over 250 years (1603-1868). The Tokugawa government not only prohibited any military expeditions to the mainland, but closed Japan to nearly all foreigners during the years of the Tokugawa Shogunate (aka Edo Period). That is until the arrival of Commodore Matthew Perry in 1853 with smoke spewing and cannons blazing bullying the Shogunate government into treaty and thus ending 250 years of isolation and peace.

The two Mongol invasions of Japan (1274, 1281) were conducted mainly by Korea vassals of the Mongols. Mongols were the world fiercest cavalrymen but they knew zilch about the sea or ships so relied heavily on their newly conquered vassals the seafaring Koreans, and Chinese.