1886 33WCF questions (lots)

[coyote nose]

What, exactly, is the difference between the regular 33 WCf, the lightweight 33 WCf and the extra Lightweight 33WCF? The takedown 33 WCF...what configuration was that in (LW, XLW, Regular)? How punishing is the recoil in the XLW model? Could the 33 WCF be had in octagon bbl and cresent butt? The reason I ask is because if work picks up here in July like they promise...I will start on my DREAM GUN. An 1886 that i will polish out (saving some $), I will send some BEAUTIFUL wood (I bought on ebay about 10 years ago) out to be semi inletted. Then I will do final inletting myself (saving some $). Then i will send the receiver, lever, hammer, forend cap, buttplate to Turnbull for case coloring (spending some $ ), I'll send the stock to my brother for checkering (he does good work), and I will Belgian Blue the barrel and fittings myself. Final wood finish i will also do. However..I need a base 1886 to start with. caliber: I prefer 33 WCF for this, but if I have to replace the barrel I could chamber it for either 33 WCF or 348. I assume the 1886 can handle the 348 since the 71 is an 1886. I prefer octagon and definitely want a full length mag tube. Take down would be awesome but non takedown would do. I much prefer cresent butt. So the ideal base gun would be a non pitted receievr in 33 WCF with an octagon bbl and cresent butt. All I see though are LW or XLW in round bbls. What were the available bbl lengths in 33? I plan on selling a few 1873's to finance this and have been looking at various sites for ideas. Any recomendations as to who does good semi-inletting with wood I provide?

[Gun Smith]

I would not try to turn an 1886 into a M. 71. The bolt face is too small in the '86 and it would require feeding modifictions to the receiver, and it is not as strong an action as the M.71. The 33 WCF, on the other hand is a pleasent caliber to shoot. The 348 "kills" at both ends.
I'm familar only with the standard weight rifle and the later production takedown model. The shorter, lighter barrels work fine because modern smokeless powder preclude the need for anything over 22-24" of barrel length. I do not know the different weights.
The 33WCF brass is easy to make from 45/70 cases. I just resize in my 33 dies in two steps. Using a good sizing lube is very important too.
I just finished inletting and finishing a Precision stock. It was inletted very close to start with and it only took a small amount of fitting. They might use your wood, but I don't know.
M. 1886's in 33 WCF are least expensive of all the models right now. You can get a good shooter for under $2000.00. Anything other than the later 33's are all going to be $2500.00 or more nowdays.

[coyote nose]

Thanks Gunsmith. I checked case head size for 348 and 33 and thought they were the same. I may be mistaken here though. I have often heard the 1886 is weaker than the 71. Since it is the same design is this due to metallurgy?
I am not concerned with brass....I'll find some eventually or make it like you said. heck, after my ordeal coming up with 45-75 cases making 33 brass should be a snap. My main concern is buying an 1886 33 WCf in a light round barrel because I just cannot find an octagon one, then after starting the work coming across an octagon one. I just do not know what is actually out there and cannot really find the difference between the XLW and LW and TD models. Since I wont hit the lottery this dream gun will be the only one, I dont want to play "what if" later down the line. I really prefer octagon or non skinny round barrels. I have chambered guns myself, slowly, and can always buy an octagon blank, thread it, chamber it, cut the dovetails, etc. but obviously prefer to have a factory barrel if possible. Saves time, money, and is more "original" if you know what i mean.

[Malamute]

Early and late 86's are considered to have different heat treatment and allows in the recivers. All 33's were later guns. You may be able to safely rebarrel a late 86 to 348.


I may be mistaken, but I don't believe any 33's were made with octagon barrels. Round was considered standard for 33's. If any exist, they would be special order I think. In other words, rare and expensive, and the chances of seeing one, let alone buying one, are very slim. I don't believe I've ever seen an octagon 33, or heard of one. Lighter guns were aslo more common in the later production, so the chances of finding a heavier barrel in round is also slim to none.


TD is takedown. Any varient could be special ordered as a takedown. No particular specs would apply.

Most of the LW (light weight) were in shotgun butt, half mag, light round barrel configuration, but variations exist. The XLW (extra light weight) is bascially the same gun with lighter contour barrel, and perhaps the stock modified for lighter weight, tho I'm not sure about that.


I've seen a handful of full mag 33's, but most I've seen are half mag.


If you're wanting to build a gun to suit yourself, you will most likely be best served by buying any decent donor gun and starting, and dont look back. I'd stay with a rough 33, as it will be a later gun unless rebarreld at the factory or somwhere along the way........Or, just buy a decent condition gun and use it as is and enjoy it.

[Gun Smith]

I stand corrected. The 33 and 348 both have the same base dimension. The case body is larger, and would require some modifiction of the feeding of the wider cartridge. The steel, while better in the 33's over the older guns may still not be as strong as the steel in the 71's from scratch( 1900 vs. 1935). But the 348 load data from Hodgdons shows pressures less than 40,000#, and I believe an '86 post 1900 33 action would be safe at that level.
Snooky Williamson loaded M. 86 calibers in his tests to pressures that had to be way over 50,000#, and I don't think he blew up many guns, if any.
The weakest part of the 348 design is the extreme taper of the case. This increased the bolt thrust, but allowed for better extraction of the fired case. Other than the feeding modification needed, I think the later M. 86 action would handle the 348 with proper loads.
My suggestion would be to find a well used M. 71 going in and customize it to your taste. Dollar wise you probably would be way ahead at the end of the project over converting a M.86 anyway.
But as I said before my M.71 still "kills' at both ends, while my 33 is quite pleasent to shoot.

[coyote nose]

Sounds reasonable...I am leaning towards the 33 WCF. I dont like pistol grips on my levers. Just my preference, i prefer straight stocks on them, so making a 71 into my dream gun is not the way to go. It has to be an 1886. Didnt know the 348 requires carrier modification in an 1886 and frankly I dont want to tackle that, I'll just stick with the 33. In any case, even well used 71's bring about what a well used 33 WCF 1886 go for, so price-wise there is no difference there. I am even considering a new 1886 for just the receiver, and the mag tube, but dont want the safety, and have heard the triggers are poor on these. I work on a lot of gun parts myself, but I dont mess with triggers.
Seems like if I want an octagonal barrel in 33 I will have to buy a blank and fit it myself. Now I have to decide if I want to do that or just stick with a round factory barrel. Already decided on crescent butt and full length mag tube. That is another reason I dont want those skinny barrels...wont look right having the mag tube bigger diameter than the barrel way out there at the muzzle.

[Sixgun]

If you like Winchesters, you could save yourself a lot of aggravation by buying the "Madis Book" by George Madis. It will answer 99% of the questions that you have. ------------Sixgun

[colo native]

If any of you folks are interested I have about 100 cases and as many bullets I want to trade, plus a set of 33wcf dies.. Some of the brass is still loaded, but I can pull the pils. If I remember I didnt resize the brass, but I think it is from 45-70 and was ordered from some company that used to sell brass, I think it was old west scrounger, but was all new except for 20 or so that were shot. gun is gone, I think....
but could use some 40-65 or 32-40 headstamped brass in trade......

[winchester1886]

Seems to me that this question about the relative strength of the 86 compared to the 71 comes up every few months, late model 86's after serial number 122000 approximately, with either nickel steel barrels or Winchester proof steels barrels were capable of running 42,000 psi pressure (The Legacy of Lever Guns, page 66.) the 33wcf and the 348 both ran 42,000 psi (same mag same page).
If we then go to "The Winchester Book" by Madis, page 331 model 86 rifle belonging to a Robert N Roningen seriel number 21444 a black powder rifle made in 1888, was returned to Winchester and rebarreled to 33wcf, in other words a black powder rifle turned into a smokeless powder rifle by a simple barrel change, this would indicate that whether the rifle was a black powder or smokeless powder 86 or a 71 the actions were all capable of running the same pressure.
Also a lot of the old timers who were trying to put a bit more grunt into the 86/71, preferred the 86 action because of the design of the locking lugs they would take a bit more pressure before they started to pop the lever.
Back to your question why not simply buy a smokeless powder 86, with octagonal barrel and large type rifle butt plate and full mag and resleeve it to 33wcf, or buy a Browning 86 rifle and resleeve it to 33wcf then you would have everything you want in a nearly new rifle. Good luck.

[Mike D.]

All of the advice you have received so far is good. The ONLY difference between the 1886 action and the 71 is a coil mainspring and very slightly angled locking lugs. The six month lag between the last 1886s assembled and the first 71s does not indicate an appreciable difference in steel composition. The "new" Proof Steel barrels were easier to machine, but had the same relative strength rating as the old Nickel Steel barrels had. The NS barrels were rated at 100,000 PSI from the time of their introduction, which was around 1895, give or take a few years. Winchester continued to manufacture Proof Steel .33WCF barrels, as replacements for worn out ones, until the 1950s and sold them into the '60s. These, very late .33 barrels have the same ramp front sight that the 71s have. If you see a .33 caliber Model '86 rifle that has a long ramp front sight you can rest assured that the barrel was replaced. I have a couple of the very last assembled 1886 Winchesters and neither carry a long ramp barrrel.

At the time of the 71 was introduce, in 1936, many owners of earlier manufactured 1886s sent their guns back to New Haven to be changes to the .348WCF cartidge. If Winchester had any concerns over the strength and safety of the 1886 action they would not have done the work. I know of no instances where these guns failed under the pressure of the new cartridge.

[coyote nose]

Okay, so I assume then, based on this input, that an octagon bbl was never offered in 33WCF. I have Madis book but cannot find this in it. I definitely want Winchester brand and not Browning, and am avoiding the new ones because of the safety and the triggers. Now, do the old Nickel steel barrels take hot blue as well as the softer steel? And does anybody know of other companies I can send my own wood to for semi-inletting??? Gun Smith mentioned Precision..any others? Thanks again guys.

[big bear]

All of the advice you have received so far is good. The ONLY difference between the 1886 action and the 71 is a coil mainspring and very slightly angled locking lugs. The six month lag between the last 1886s assembled and the first 71s does not indicate an appreciable difference in steel composition. The "new" Proof Steel barrels were easier to machine, but had the same relative strength rating as the old Nickel Steel barrels had. The NS barrels were rated at 100,000 PSI from the time of their introduction, which was around 1895, give or take a few years. Winchester continued to manufacture Proof Steel .33WCF barrels, as replacements for worn out ones, until the 1950s and sold them into the '60s. These, very late .33 barrels have the same ramp front sight that the 71s have. If you see a .33 caliber Model '86 rifle that has a long ramp front sight you can rest assured that the barrel was replaced. I have a couple of the very last assembled 1886 Winchesters and neither carry a long ramp barrrel.

At the time of the 71 was introduce, in 1936, many owners of earlier manufactured 1886s sent their guns back to New Haven to be changes to the .348WCF cartidge. If Winchester had any concerns over the strength and safety of the 1886 action they would not have done the work. I know of no instances where these guns failed under the pressure of the new cartridge.

Mike, have you ever seen one of these 348 1886Winchester? Most interesting comment.

[buckeyeshooter]

Sounds reasonable...I am leaning towards the 33 WCF. I dont like pistol grips on my levers. Just my preference, i prefer straight stocks on them, so making a 71 into my dream gun is not the way to go. It has to be an 1886. Didnt know the 348 requires carrier modification in an 1886 and frankly I dont want to tackle that, I'll just stick with the 33. In any case, even well used 71's bring about what a well used 33 WCF 1886 go for, so price-wise there is no difference there. I am even considering a new 1886 for just the receiver, and the mag tube, but dont want the safety, and have heard the triggers are poor on these. I work on a lot of gun parts myself, but I dont mess with triggers.
Seems like if I want an octagonal barrel in 33 I will have to buy a blank and fit it myself. Now I have to decide if I want to do that or just stick with a round factory barrel. Already decided on crescent butt and full length mag tube. That is another reason I dont want those skinny barrels...wont look right having the mag tube bigger diameter than the barrel way out there at the muzzle.

If you are sending it to Turnbull to be color cased, you could just buy a new 1886 'lawyered up' and have them remove the tang safety and rebounding hammer and return it to Winchester specs while they are finishing the gun. That way you get back a real winchester action but save on the donor gun.

[coyote nose]

Hi buckeye shooter, thanks for the advice but this is an old post. The gun is finished and shooting like a DREAM! I posted a thread last year, but have not followed thru with posting targets...maybe next week if I have time. Anyway, here is a link to the post about the completed rifle.
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=34275

[Mike D.]

ALL .33 caliber 1886s are RIFLES, period, end of story. They are listed in catalogs as "Rifle, 33 caliber". Factory letters will reflect this. It's incorrect to call them Extra Lightweights, Lightweights, et al. The The term Extra Lightweight refers to the 22" barreled .45-70, and occasionally other large caliber, guns only.

[Mike D.]

Thanks Gunsmith. I checked case head size for 348 and 33 and thought they were the same. I may be mistaken here though. I have often heard the 1886 is weaker than the 71. Since it is the same design is this due to metallurgy?
I am not concerned with brass....I'll find some eventually or make it like you said. heck, after my ordeal coming up with 45-75 cases making 33 brass should be a snap. My main concern is buying an 1886 33 WCf in a light round barrel because I just cannot find an octagon one, then after starting the work coming across an octagon one. I just do not know what is actually out there and cannot really find the difference between the XLW and LW and TD models. Since I wont hit the lottery this dream gun will be the only one, I dont want to play "what if" later down the line. I really prefer octagon or non skinny round barrels. I have chambered guns myself, slowly, and can always buy an octagon blank, thread it, chamber it, cut the dovetails, etc. but obviously prefer to have a factory barrel if possible. Saves time, money, and is more "original" if you know what i mean.

No .33 caliber 1886s were made with Octagon barrels. I've heard rumors but have never actually seen one, other than those with recently made barrels.

[buckeyeshooter]

looks very nice, you did nice work on it!

[Mike D.]

Yes, excellent work. I am afraid to even attempt a partially shaped sock, let alone a blank. A rapid taper pencil thin octagon barrel would be the cat's butt.