TRAGEDY - Man kills girl 1 mile away with a muzzleloader

w30wcf · Post by **w30wcf** » Wed Dec 21, 2011 9:39 pm

Prayers for her family and the man who pulled the trigger.

FREDERICKSBURG, Ohio -- A man cleaning his muzzle-loading rifle shot the gun into the air, accidentally killing a 15-year-old Amish girl driving a horse-drawn buggy more than a mile away, a sheriff said Tuesday.
Rachel Yoder was shot in the head Thursday night while traveling to her home in Wayne County, between Columbus and Akron. She had attended a Christmas party for employees, most of them under 18 years old, at an Amish produce farm and was riding home alone when she was shot, Wayne County sheriff's Capt. Douglas Hunter said.
The horse continued to cart the girl after she was shot, and she fell out of the buggy near her home, Holmes County Sheriff Timothy Zimmerly said. Her brother found her after he saw the horse walking in circles and went to check it. Authorities initially believed she had fallen out of the buggy and hit her head until a hospital test revealed the gunshot wound.

Read more here: http://www.heraldonline.com/2011/12/20/ ... rylink=cpy

w30wcf

WCF3030 · Post by **WCF3030** » Wed Dec 21, 2011 9:55 pm

Stupid!!!
What a waste of life.

Rimfire McNutjob · Post by **Rimfire McNutjob** » Wed Dec 21, 2011 9:58 pm

That's a shame. Wouldn't it make more sense to fire it into a tree trunk or a mound of some sort. I'm not muzzle loader experienced but obviously it's more dangerous firing it into the air to clear the shot.

jnyork · Post by **jnyork** » Wed Dec 21, 2011 10:38 pm

Jerk was just too lazy to pull the ball. Only takes a minute.

Post by **Ysabel Kid** » Wed Dec 21, 2011 10:44 pm

jnyork wrote:Jerk was just too lazy to pull the ball. Only takes a minute.

Or, for Pete's sake, shoot the darn thing into the mud! Who fires a gun into the air?!?

So sad. Such a waste...

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Wed Dec 21, 2011 10:47 pm

It goes to show that even a 'primitive' weapon is still dangerous in the wrong hands, and/or if carelessly handled.

How sad that of all the tens of millions of square-feet within the range of that rifle, the one she was occupying was the one the bullet came down in.

kimwcook · Post by **kimwcook** » Wed Dec 21, 2011 10:53 pm

Ysabel Kid wrote:
jnyork wrote:Jerk was just too lazy to pull the ball. Only takes a minute.
Or, for Pete's sake, shoot the darn thing into the mud! Who fires a gun into the air?!?

So sad. Such a waste...

A flagrant violation of safe gun handling. Years ago, the morning after New Years Eve, I responded to a 45 ACP slug sitting on a couch cushion. The only conclusion I could come up with was some idiot stepped outside the night before and fired off some rounds into the air. The complainant/victim stated they'd heard shots fired all through the night. It had traveled through a composition roof, 1/2" plywood sheeting, through cellulite blown in insulation and through 3/8" sheetrock before landing on the cushion. Could you imagine being outside and taking that round in the top of the noggin. You'd more than likely suffer the same fate as that poor girl. Sad.

6pt-sika · Post by **6pt-sika** » Wed Dec 21, 2011 11:08 pm

Best policy shoot it in the GROUND not the air !

idiot !

yooper2 · Post by **yooper2** » Wed Dec 21, 2011 11:10 pm

Thats truly horrible, especially in the holiday season and when it is due to carelessness/laziness.

I was once standing outside on New Years Eve waiting for some friends to arrive at my house when I heard a loud THUNK. Confused, I started looking around and thats when I saw a hole in the hood of my girlfriends car. I popped the hood and found a jacketed bullet stuck in the air cleaner. Turned out to be a .40. I was standing about 4 feet away, and would not like to know what that would have done to my head.

Eric

Mac in Mo · Post by **Mac in Mo** » Thu Dec 22, 2011 9:05 am

This goes right along with the air rifle thread a little while back. It's pure speculation but I would not be surprised if the guy thought it was OK to fire into the air because "it's only a muzzleloader".
Yet another wasted life.
As far as New Years Eve, when I was LEO I worked in one of the most crime ridden inner cities in the country. On NYE close to midnight you had better have your patrol car parked somewhere safe, preferably under cover. The amount of gunfire at midnight was intense and like the mideast, they thought nothing of shooting into the air.
Amazingly few reports of injuries, some reports of bullets going through walls and roofs. Most didn't even bother to call, it's just a part of life there, sadly.

Kevin

86er · Post by **86er** » Thu Dec 22, 2011 9:21 am

The muzzleloader is not dangerous, nor is any other gun. The person using it is dangerous if they fail to follow the rules of gun safety. Prayers for the girl and her family.

Blaine · Post by **Blaine** » Thu Dec 22, 2011 9:39 am

Some of the worst karma I've heard of. And it was avoidable. That's why squill hunting with a .22 bothers me some.

Nath · Post by **Nath** » Thu Dec 22, 2011 9:42 am

jnyork wrote:Jerk was just too lazy to pull the ball. Only takes a minute.

Spot on jn.

My bag has a screw in there ready, never go without it.
Half a second forward or back and she would still be with us

I admire those folk too

Shame.

BlaineG wrote: Some of the worst karma I've heard of. And it was avoidable. That's why squill hunting with a .22 bothers me some.

Thats a fair point too!

Nath.

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Thu Dec 22, 2011 10:59 am

Just curious more than anything... but... all safe handling questions & errors aside the cops here must be really bored if they are going to do ballistic testing on a ML projectile... one of who knows how many in that 3.14 sq mi area.

Given that MLs have long been a sore spot with the "register (so we can ban them later) crowd", My "anti gun/false flag" radar is tingling...

gamekeeper · Post by **gamekeeper** » Thu Dec 22, 2011 11:20 am

BlaineG wrote: Some of the worst karma I've heard of. And it was avoidable. That's why squill hunting with a .22 bothers me some.

I now use CB longs on squirrels for that very reason and still bothers me.

Prayers sent for that poor girls family.

2571 · Post by **2571** » Thu Dec 22, 2011 11:42 am

Old Ironsights wrote:. . . cops here must be really bored if they are going to do ballistic testing on a ML projectile... .

Why wouldn't they exclude the guy who discharged his rifle in to the air if ballistics would do so?

Who would not perfrom forensic tests in a death case?

Are you suggesting there's no rifling marks on the bullet because it came from a smoothbore?

Streetstar · Post by **Streetstar** » Thu Dec 22, 2011 11:57 am

jnyork wrote:Jerk was just too lazy to pull the ball. Only takes a minute.

This. Now he has to pay for it the rest of his life (i dont know about actual physical incarceration -- there may be a bit of that --- but having to live with such a thing )

Mac in Mo · Post by **Mac in Mo** » Thu Dec 22, 2011 12:00 pm

OI,

The local leo's would not be doing their sworn duty if they did not fully investigate this. Maybe I am reading your post wrong. Are you suggesting that they should not fully investigate, due to a large number of muzzle loaders in the area?

I don't know about you guys but when I squirrel hunt with a .22, I don't take a shot unless the tree or the terrain will stop the bullet, pass through or complete miss. I have taught my boys the same.

Shooting into the air is lunacy.

Kevin

cshold · Post by **cshold** » Thu Dec 22, 2011 12:31 pm

Mac in Mo wrote:OI,

The local leo's would not be doing their sworn duty if they did not fully investigate this. Maybe I am reading your post wrong. Are you suggesting that they should not fully investigate, due to a large number of muzzle loaders in the area?

I don't know about you guys but when I squirrel hunt with a .22, I don't take a shot unless the tree or the terrain will stop the bullet, pass through or complete miss. I have taught my boys the same.

Shooting into the air is lunacy.

I practice the same precautions with bullet or shot.
My biggest worry is the invisible archery hunters in their tree stands.
This is the one problem I have with the overlapping of seasons.
Archery being the longest season of them all.

Kevin

Griff · Post by **Griff** » Thu Dec 22, 2011 12:47 pm

Sad all the way around. Why on both the 4th of July and New Years Eve we'd have all our deputies find a concrete structure to park under... hated those two nites.

adirondakjack · Post by **adirondakjack** » Thu Dec 22, 2011 12:58 pm

An easy error when all you see around you is fields.

My dad had a near miss with a .44 mag handgun many years ago. He took a shot at a woodchuck sunning itself on a bank. he hit the chuck, a pass through head shot. As he was driving out to the hard road, a pickup blocked his path. After a chat with the farmer, he was shown a hole in the tin porch roof of the farm house, and where his bullet (which the farmer had recovered) skittered past the man's wife, missing her by a foot or so as she shucked peas on the porch, lodging in a piece of molding. They guessed the distance at 1/2 a mile.

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Thu Dec 22, 2011 1:12 pm

I'm not questioning the stupidity of she "shooter"... assuming his story is true. But consider: with the exception of minnie balls, power belts ans a couple of others, MOST ML bullets these days are saboted... no rifle engraving for ballistic testing. So odds are this guy "confessed" to somthing there is no way he could know/be sure he was responsible for. Why? Is "guilt" felt over an unknown sufficient to drag your family into legal hell? Or is claiming guilt a conveinent way for an activist to get some good anti-hunting/anti-gun press?

There are lots of people who confess to lots of unprovable crimes every day. Confession and circumstantial evidence are BAD ways to convict someone.

adirondakjack · Post by **adirondakjack** » Thu Dec 22, 2011 1:29 pm

Could be as simple as nobody heard any other shots, and the hunter knew what he'd done (which likely was he discharged his rifle at about 30 degree angle of elevation).

williamranks · Post by **williamranks** » Thu Dec 22, 2011 1:54 pm

In Phoenix and the surrounding suburbs there are microphones scattered around to listen for gunshots,
When a shot is picked up the computer triangulates the sound and you get a knock on the door.
The law was written after a child was killed by an air shot.

Blaine · Post by **Blaine** » Thu Dec 22, 2011 2:45 pm

williamranks wrote:In Phoenix and the surrounding suburbs there are microphones scattered around to listen for gunshots,
When a shot is picked up the computer triangulates the sound and you get a knock on the door.
The law was written after a child was killed by an air shot.

jnyork · Post by **jnyork** » Thu Dec 22, 2011 2:53 pm

williamranks wrote:In Phoenix and the surrounding suburbs there are microphones scattered around to listen for gunshots,
When a shot is picked up the computer triangulates the sound and you get a knock on the door.
The law was written after a child was killed by an air shot.

I remember that incident, New Years Eve idiots shooting into the air, teenage girl killed by one of the falling bullets. As a result, IIRC, Arizona now has very strict laws and substantial punishment for anyone commiting this stupidity. I am all in favor of any law that detects and aids in the prosecution of this crime.

Adobe Walls · Post by **Adobe Walls** » Thu Dec 22, 2011 3:47 pm

Howdy.

I've gotten so that I hardly hunt squirrels with anything but a shotgun for that "fall Out" reason. # 4 shot might put an eye out; but in free fall it's got to be a whole lot less dangerous. During a major ice storm here a few years back a few folks were trimming ice laden branches with gunfire. I always advise a shotgun with small shot and a full to X-full choke for safety. Shotguns are better for the task anyway; bigger "axe" than any rifle caliber.AW
PS
I unloaded my Hawken into a big log.

cshold · Post by **cshold** » Thu Dec 22, 2011 3:59 pm

The terminal velocity of a baseball is about 95 miles an hour. That’s about the same speed a ball travels when thrown by a good fastball pitcher.

A bullet fired straight up will lose velocity and eventually stop. Then gravity will cause the bullet to accelerate downward against air resistance. When the force of the air resistance is equal to the force of gravity, the acceleration will stop. this is terminal velocity.
A bullet in free fall at terminal velocity will not have enough energy to penetrate the human skull and will barely penetrate flesh.

The average bullet will reach an altitude of 9000 feet if fired straight up. Its spin will keep the bullet pointed up as it slows, stops and begins to fall back to earth. It will fall tail first and hit about 300 feet per second. As tested, a 150 grain round only left a small dent in a soft pine board.

The bullet was fired up but only FELL back down so reached a terminal velocity much lower than the initial fired velocity.

horsesoldier03 · Post by **horsesoldier03** » Thu Dec 22, 2011 4:47 pm

One of my biggest issues with our Hunters Safety Program is that they teach that it is proper to carry a gun over your shoulder. I have always taught my daughter to carry her rifles at what I call the low ready with the muzzle towards the ground in front of her. IMO it only make sense to keep the muzzle oriented towards the ground in the event of a negligent discharge, just like not shooting at game on the horizon or shooting game with a rifle high in a tree.

I hate to hear of people, especially children, whos death was in vain when caused by a wreckless person with a firearm!

Blaine · Post by **Blaine** » Thu Dec 22, 2011 4:58 pm

casastahle wrote:The terminal velocity of a baseball is about 95 miles an hour. That’s about the same speed a ball travels when thrown by a good fastball pitcher.

A bullet fired straight up will lose velocity and eventually stop. Then gravity will cause the bullet to accelerate downward against air resistance. When the force of the air resistance is equal to the force of gravity, the acceleration will stop. this is terminal velocity.
A bullet in free fall at terminal velocity will not have enough energy to penetrate the human skull and will barely penetrate flesh.

The average bullet will reach an altitude of 9000 feet if fired straight up. Its spin will keep the bullet pointed up as it slows, stops and begins to fall back to earth. It will fall tail first and hit about 300 feet per second. As tested, a 150 grain round only left a small dent in a soft pine board.

The bullet was fired up but only FELL back down so reached a terminal velocity much lower than the initial fired velocity.

That's only when fired exactly verticle....That RB had plenty of forward motion. I had a BB gun that was 300fps, and it would bury a round in pine.

I doubt that 150 grainer would be harmless, indeed, it would kill with a head strike.

El Chivo · Post by **El Chivo** » Thu Dec 22, 2011 5:12 pm

in free fall it's got to be a whole lot less dangerous.

this is true; next to our silhouette club there is a shotgun range, and frequently their airborne shot came down on us. You could hear it rattle the leaves and some pelted me, coming down on my hat. It was barely noticeable and not painful. Of course anything in the eye can hurt but I don't see it as life-threatening.

This was pretty small shot, I'm sure the equation changes as the shot gets bigger.

People have told me that a bullet comes down with more speed than it went up. I don't believe it but I've also heard that pennies dropped from the Empire State Building can kill, and make holes in the sidewalk. I'd like to know the truth of it.

It sounds like most of the fatal New Year's Eve bullets are fired at a low angle, and get their lethality from the chamber not from gravity. In LA we have the triangulation system, but on New Year's Eve I stay home.

cshold · Post by **cshold** » Thu Dec 22, 2011 5:46 pm

El Chivo wrote:
in free fall it's got to be a whole lot less dangerous.
this is true; next to our silhouette club there is a shotgun range, and frequently their airborne shot came down on us. You could hear it rattle the leaves and some pelted me, coming down on my hat. It was barely noticeable and not painful. Of course anything in the eye can hurt but I don't see it as life-threatening.

This was pretty small shot, I'm sure the equation changes as the shot gets bigger.

People have told me that a bullet comes down with more speed than it went up. I don't believe it but I've also heard that pennies dropped from the Empire State Building can kill, and make holes in the sidewalk. I'd like to know the truth of it.

It sounds like most of the fatal New Year's Eve bullets are fired at a low angle, and get their lethality from the chamber not from gravity. In LA we have the triangulation system, but on New Year's Eve I stay home.

http://abcnews.go.com/2020/story?id=3131332&page=1

tman · Post by **tman** » Thu Dec 22, 2011 5:52 pm

My prayers go out to this girl and her family. After reading the story, i concluded; Is it possible? Yes, Anything is possible. Is it probable? Extremely highly unlikely. Something ain't right here.

adirondakjack · Post by **adirondakjack** » Thu Dec 22, 2011 7:45 pm

The shooting range where I shoot CAS had an incident maybe 8 or 9 years ago. NYS Park Police used our range for their training, and they were doing some sort of tactical drill requiring a shooter to advance a few yards, drop to prone, and fire. One of their guys did so with his finger inside the trigger guard of a .40 Glock with the expected result, an AD as he went prone. The round was later calculated to have left the range very near the optimum 31 degree angle, and it commenced heading WAAY down range, passed through the side of a house (in a development built about 75 years after the range was founded) and lodged in the interior wall of a child's bedroom, a few inches above his pillow. The room was vacant at the time, but it made great "anti" TV until the NYS police put two and two together and proved with ballistic comparison that it was their own "state boys" responsible. The state compensated the home owner and that was the end of it FOR THEM. Our club felt such pressure that we spent a bunch of money installing overshot protection at our pistol range AND dis-invited the state from using our range.....

FWiedner · Post by **FWiedner** » Thu Dec 22, 2011 8:13 pm

An ignorant and careless gun-owner. An innocent child. The intersection was unfortunate with a sad end in as much as our mortal accumen allows us to understand the event.

Many times we know not the purpose for which we were created to serve. To me this just indicates that when the Lord calls someone, he knows where and how to find them.

... or maybe it was just a freak accident.

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Thu Dec 22, 2011 9:24 pm

El Chivo wrote:People have told me that a bullet comes down with more speed than it went up.

As far as the bullet thing, theoretically that upwards-fired bullet would not tumble and would fall 'straight back down', but I'd bet most of the time some subtle imbalance would in fact get it to tumbling. On the other hand, theoretically that 45-degree-fired bullet would still potentially maintain much velocity and not necessarily be tumbling, but if it has a low ballistic coefficient it may well go subsonic and the turbulence there would not likely allow most bullets to maintain stability for long.

Realistically, lots of other unknown factors intervene, so of course most of us KNOW never to fire any projectile without a SOLID, preferably 'absorbent', backstop, or one that if reflective, has an angle to minimize ricochet potential and instead cause fragmentation, or at least major deformity, of the bullet, thus further reducing range and stability of the projectile(s).

The terminal velocity of a skydiver I thought was something around 120 mph during unimpeded falling, but I may be wrong - whatever it is, I'd expect the bullet's free-fall to be substantially faster, due to much greater cross-sectional density. Even a 30 mph hard bullet hitting a person seems like it could cause serious injury if in the wrong place (eye-socket in a supine sun-bather...?), and going much faster, would not surprise me if lethal much of the time.

I doubt anyone would volunteer for experimental verification (I could see this as a viable use for some violent criminals), and don't think Hatcher's Notebook addressed it...

adirondakjack · Post by **adirondakjack** » Fri Dec 23, 2011 11:26 am

Maximum range is achieved at about 31 degrees elevation. The incoming rounds are still lethal if greatly slowed.....

olyinaz · Post by **olyinaz** » Fri Dec 23, 2011 11:29 am

Somewhat related news article regarding "sniper detectors": http://www.foxnews.com/scitech/2011/12/ ... heartland/

Oly

FWiedner · Post by **FWiedner** » Fri Dec 23, 2011 7:31 pm

Uh...

BS.

handirifle · Post by **handirifle** » Sat Dec 24, 2011 1:41 am

FWiedner wrote:Uh...

BS.

Is the BS for the shotspotter? Those are real, in fact our troops use them overseas in the sand box. I have no doubt they are in use in the US.

FWiedner · Post by **FWiedner** » Sat Dec 24, 2011 2:02 am

I'm guffawing the accuracy of the system and police response time suggested in the article.

kimwcook · Post by **kimwcook** » Sat Dec 24, 2011 10:02 am

I've seen a demonstration of the ones for the military and I'll say they're so close it wouldn't be a problem finding the shooter and fast. Response time I can't comment on.

adirondakjack · Post by **adirondakjack** » Sat Dec 24, 2011 12:04 pm

handirifle wrote:
FWiedner wrote:Uh...

BS.

Is the BS for the shotspotter? Those are real, in fact our troops use them overseas in the sand box. I have no doubt they are in use in the US.

A city near here has the microphone telemetry system. I remember when they set it up, they dialed it in by having cops test fire rounds from various guns (into safe sand trap barrels on trailers towed to locations they wanted shots from) around town. I suspect the demo was also to show off the ability.... They claim it works very well. In theory if three microphones connected to computer "hear" the same shot, they HAVE TO be able to tell you where that shot came from simply by the time difference in picking up the sound. It's no different than how GPS or any triangulation system works.

FWiedner · Post by **FWiedner** » Sat Dec 24, 2011 10:04 pm

It's well known that technology exists to detect sound and triangulate locations.

It's also well known that the types who purposely shoot the sky or whatever are bold but not the sharpest tools on the bench.

I just don't believe that even the dumbest shooter will hang out to see who shows up, or that law enforcment is going to rush gangbusters from all points to corral the alleged desperado.

Leverdude · Post by **Leverdude** » Sun Dec 25, 2011 1:21 am

casastahle wrote:The terminal velocity of a baseball is about 95 miles an hour. That’s about the same speed a ball travels when thrown by a good fastball pitcher.

A bullet fired straight up will lose velocity and eventually stop. Then gravity will cause the bullet to accelerate downward against air resistance. When the force of the air resistance is equal to the force of gravity, the acceleration will stop. this is terminal velocity.
A bullet in free fall at terminal velocity will not have enough energy to penetrate the human skull and will barely penetrate flesh.

The average bullet will reach an altitude of 9000 feet if fired straight up. Its spin will keep the bullet pointed up as it slows, stops and begins to fall back to earth. It will fall tail first and hit about 300 feet per second. As tested, a 150 grain round only left a small dent in a soft pine board.

The bullet was fired up but only FELL back down so reached a terminal velocity much lower than the initial fired velocity.

Yup, I read not so long ago that they find bullets sitting on rooftops in the mideast after weddings & things. If its not going thru or evn sticking in roofs its not going to go thru a person, though it might not feel real good. But thats straight or nearly straight up. If the angle is low enough that the bullet is still moving forward when it comes down its a different story. The ark a bullet describes is parabolic and I think its something around 45 degrees before most will be coming almost straight down at the end of their flight. Course there are a million variables & its still not very smart to shoot into the air.

adirondakjack · Post by **adirondakjack** » Sun Dec 25, 2011 1:34 am

At any launch angle up to the maximum muzzle elevation for furthest range (31 degrees) a bullet will come in at about the same angle it is launched at. The flight path "flattens out" at the "dish" of the upturned parabola, then finishes very near the same angle it started at, describing a near perfect parabola. At any launch angle greater than 31 degrees, you begin to see more radical "fall out" at the end of flight, where yes, bullets almost "rain" down.

The millions of kids who shoot squirrels 15-20 feet off the ground, in trees 50 ft away are launching .22 bullets as much as a mile or more when they miss.....

I remember a fellow some years ago who was walking on an overpass above a highway when he felt a pain in his side. He was in more and more distress as he walked, and when he got home he discovered he was bleeding, so he called a taxi and went to the ER. X ray revealed a bullet lodged in the fat around a kidney. They later figured out some kids had been shooting .22s in a sand pit 3/4mile away, and a bullet escaped over the rim of the pit.....

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Sun Dec 25, 2011 5:40 pm

FWiedner wrote:It's well known that technology exists to detect sound and triangulate locations.

It's also well known that the types who purposely shoot the sky or whatever are bold but not the sharpest tools on the bench.

I just don't believe that even the dumbest shooter will hang out to see who shows up, or that law enforcment is going to rush gangbusters from all points to corral the alleged desperado.

I's like "microtagging" bullets to find the owner/purchaser. Scientifically "interesting", but essentially pointless and another step to "government only" guns and shooting...

Rafe Covington · Post by **Rafe Covington** » Sun Dec 25, 2011 8:36 pm

Old Ironsights wrote:
FWiedner wrote:It's well known that technology exists to detect sound and triangulate locations.

It's also well known that the types who purposely shoot the sky or whatever are bold but not the sharpest tools on the bench.

I just don't believe that even the dumbest shooter will hang out to see who shows up, or that law enforcment is going to rush gangbusters from all points to corral the alleged desperado.

I's like "microtagging" bullets to find the owner/purchaser. Scientifically "interesting", but essentially pointless and another step to "government only" guns and shooting...

Totally agree with you.

Rafe