Win 94AE Lite primer & stringing update

[WCF3030]

Previous post http://www.levergunscommunity.com/viewt ... 38&start=0

Thanks to some solid advice from many and a few video’s from YouTube on disassembly and reassembly of a Win 94AE my F.I.L. and I stripped down the rifle, took the lower tang apart, gave everything a good bath, smoothed all the contacts, including the “rebounding fingers". One spring was less than smooth and was fixed. We also worked on the forearm and barrel clamp.
Joe and a few others suggestion on cleaning and smoothing had an effect and Griff’s manual was an enormous help with parts id and getting familiar with the rifle, we printed off several pages and posted them in the work shop, and we did shorted the lower leg of the hammer strut, but I’m thinking not enough.
The results are a rifle that will go boom every time and went from a 4 shot 6in vertical string at 30 yards to a 4 shot 3in vertical string with the same load at 30 yards.
At this point the primer strike still looks a little soft and I’m toying with the idea of shorting the lower leg a little more, I can always order a new one. I’m confident that this rifle is capable of shooting a lot better.
Any more suggestions or critiques are welcomed. While pleased with our gains my F.I.L. is ready to throw in the towel and send it off to a gunsmith, who says he has a $35 fix for it. I'm not aware of any gunsmith who gets out of bed in the morning for $35 so I'm less than excited about that particular "fix".

Thanks again!

Terry

[Nath]

I did all that work on mine too and it still did not do it!

I have made a suggestion many many times on here but no one takes it up!
I will try again!

I often wonder what influence the lever link eye where it connects to the bolt also passing the firing pin has on the closed bolt upon firing.

It is common knowledge how a turn bolt handle will have an adverse effect on accuracy if it is touching the stock etc.

Now what if that lever is still coming to bear on the bolt and the locking lug is not taking over on closing? Is this a scenario for inconsistancy? I think so and sure wish I had thought of it before I sold my last AE!

Good luck.

Nath.

[WCF3030]

I did all that work on mine too and it still did not do it!

I have made a suggestion many many times on here but no one takes it up!
I will try again!

I often wonder what influence the lever link eye where it connects to the bolt also passing the firing pin has on the closed bolt upon firing.

It is common knowledge how a turn bolt handle will have an adverse effect on accuracy if it is touching the stock etc.

Now what if that lever is still coming to bear on the bolt and the locking lug is not taking over on closing? Is this a scenario for inconsistancy? I think so and sure wish I had thought of it before I sold my last AE!

Good luck.

Nath.

Nath in all farness you did not suggest it in my other post.
Thats something I can look into, but I'm going to need a little more knowlege on the subject first.

Terry

[Nath]

IMO that rear rising lug is for a consistant lock up of the bolt, apart from safe operation it is also crucial to accuracy!
However, if for what ever reason the lever is still bearing on that cross pin in the bolt and the hinge pin, all consistant bolt lock up is completly lost!

I have a hunch that in days gone Winchester spent alot of time in this area, something that may be lacking in their later creations.

I vagely remember mine being able to alter the lug rising just by varying the levers thrust on closing, being slow and dim I only recently started to wonder why that is and surely was wrong!

Best wishes.

N.

[Old Savage]

I have a rifle of the same type in that S# range made at the same type. It has about 600 rds through it. It has never FTF to my recollection. It does not string the shots. The two loads that have been the most accurate are the Federal 170s and the Winchester Power Point 170s. They will both group about 3/4" at 100 yds. Nothing else is close to that. I have never done anything to it other than clean the barrel.

[Griff]

Nath, I'm not sure I'm following correctly; are you're saying the lever may be interferring with the firing pin? Or, the link might not be pushing the locking lug up far enough for that consistent lockup?

Yes, that little "hook" on the end of the lever retracts the firing pin as the lever is pushed forward. It is easy enough to check for interference with the two parts out of the gun, and the lever/bolt pin installed to keep their relationship intact. As you separate the lever/bolt, you should feel, holding your finger on the back of the firing pin (and see if you look at the bolt face), the firing pin being pushed rearward. Then if you bring the two back together and keep a pressure with your thumb on the rear of the firing pin you will feel when the firing pin is cleared to move forward.

I don't have exact measurements, but... eyeballin' it, I'd say that you should have right at 3/16" to 1/4" of clearance between the end of the hook and rear of the firing pin slot the lever sits in when the lever is at the correct angle, see below:

The parts are show upside down so that you can see the lever hook in the slot and the fact that the pin hole has a clear channel under it. Firing pin was out of a working gun and the lever is a new production AE for a pistol grip rifle. There have been many, many changes to the lever, almost all of which are to the slot for the lever/link pin.

I'd have to disassemble a couple to get pics of the main changes in the the various levers (slot is sometimes straight, a squared dogleg, or rounded, sometimes pronounced or rather subtle, (like the one above). But, the only thing that really matters is the location of the front portion of the bottom of the hole, as that's where the pin is when the link is pushing the locking lug up into full battery. If you watch the action slowly, you see the lever moving back and forth in the slot. The more rounded the dogleg, the smoother the action, but I don't recommend grinding on the slot... unless you have several spare levers!

Vertical stringing is almost ALWAYS caused by either incorrect (maybe inconsistent is a better word), positioning of the gun, flinching or, IMO the most likely culprit is a source of pressure on the barrel. This last bit especially if the stringing is from bottom to top. This is why my constant recommendation has been to take the magazine and forend off the gun and shoot it as a single shot to determine if the gun is capable of good groups. I go so far as to only use a front support on the front of the receiver... nothing touching the barrel. Next step is to install just the forend and rear band (and screw of course). Shoot for group again, still only using the front of the receiver for support. Next move the support to under the forend... shoot for group again. Next add the mag tube and front band (and screw if you want to keep them), repeat. Finally reintroduce the mag follower, spring, plug and screw.

I'd be willing to bet money that you've got a tack-driver with nothing hanging off the barrel. And very likely nothing'll change until you get to the part about installing the rings and guts of the magazine. And as you tighten those screws... you start the process of applying pressure to the barrel, either up, down or sideways. Sometimes, I think it's astounding to think that you can get a 3" group out of a Winchester 94!

[J Miller]

When the lever pulls the bolt back and forth it slides in a cut out in the side of the firing pin. Check the firing pin and the lever for signs of contact between them. If there is any it will or can I'm sure slow the firing pin down.
Here is a 94AE Firing pin. You can see how it's skeletonized. Without the weight to carry it on to the firing pin anything can slow it down.

Win 94 Firing pin AE.jpg

Here is a comparison pic of the pre-64, post-64 and AE firing pins. You can see the difference.

Win 94 firing pin mantage.JPG

In this see through drawing you can see the relationship of the lever to the firing pin and bolt.

win94action2.jpg

As for Naths theory that the lever pressing on the pin in the bolt can cause variations in bolt position, I'm sure he is correct. However I'm also sure that if this is happening it's a tolerance situation that would cost as much a new gun to fix. The only think I could think of to check is weather or not the top hook of the lever is pushing up on the bottom of the slot in the bolt. If so this could be adjusted. Just look for wear at the contact points.

Joe

[Nath]

Griff and Joe, well made comments gents.

I am not so hung up on the lever upsetting any procedure the firing pin goes through, in saying that though it should checked.

The lever shuttles the bolt forward as you know, then just as the lug rises and max's out the lever should be neutral against /around the pin that attaches it to the bolt. Thats (for me) why we should not ***** foot the mechanism.

If that lever is just bearing down on that very pin some it will I foresee (now ) cause major accuracy issues.

Just as my turnbolt had an issue as in it would only group light bullets, scattering heavy rounds. OS states one of his 94's groups very well with a couple of loads, to me this sounds like my turn bolt just in reverse bullet weight wise.(I presume, forgive me).

It is incredable how my turn bolt now pretty much groups any load stuffed in it!

If this pans out I will of sold what could of been a good carbine Alway's was slow

N.

[WCF3030]

Vertical stringing is almost ALWAYS caused by either incorrect (maybe inconsistent is a better word), positioning of the gun, flinching.

Griff I wish this was true. It would save me a lot of aggravation. I will give your suggestion of removing the clamp and for end a try, I did something similar but with an H&R, that had too much pressure from the screw on the fore end and it was suggested I shoot it without it attached. The difference of just a little pressure changed it from a tack driver to shotgun pattern.

[WCF3030]

I have a rifle of the same type in that S# range made at the same type. It has about 600 rds through it. It has never FTF to my recollection. It does not string the shots. The two loads that have been the most accurate are the Federal 170s and the Winchester Power Point 170s. They will both group about 3/4" at 100 yds. Nothing else is close to that. I have never done anything to it other than clean the barrel.

Want to trade? Sounds like you got that one good one they made.
This seems to be enough of an issue that a lot of cyber ink has been spilt in trying to correct it. I knew just from what I absorb from this forum that the AE was the model to avoid, to bad I was not with my F.I.L. when he bought it at the auction.

[Griff]

Vertical stringing is almost ALWAYS caused by either incorrect (maybe inconsistent is a better word), positioning of the gun, flinching.

Griff I wish this was true. It would save me a lot of aggravation. I will give your suggestion of removing the clamp and for end a try, I did something similar but with an H&R, that had too much pressure from the screw on the fore end and it was suggested I shoot it without it attached. The difference of just a little pressure changed it from a tack driver to shotgun pattern.

Actually, I didn't word that well... that "list" was in order of likelihood... with the least likely list first. The pressure on the barrel thing is has always been the culprit in the 5 or 6 of my Winchester 94s that exihibited this problem, plus a couple of others I've run thru for other folks.

[Malamute]

I would not entirely give up on the hammer strike idea. Light hits will contrbute to vertical striging if the ignition is inconsistant. The fact that you halved the stringing with cleaning up the insides and reducing the rebound arms makes me think you have some problem with that. Getting a decent trigger pull weight with a clean letoff will also help with accuracy, even if the gun is otherwise perfect.

I also wouldn't give up on an entire model because of a problem like this. Many simply install a half cock lower tang and have had good ignition, and, if I recall correctly, better groups.

I for one would like to have an AE in 30-30 cal. I have pre-war and pre-64's mostly, but would like one with a scope, and the AE's are perfect for that.

There's an article in the leverguns section devoted to them that has info on accurizing 94's. Much of it is related to the barrel bands, stock, and their fit.

[WCF3030]

Griff,

If the weather holds out today and the next I hope to run some rounds through the rifle without the forend and loosen the clamp. I can see this issue now being two fold with the primer strike issue and the clamp.

[WCF3030]

I would not entirely give up on the hammer strike idea. Light hits will contrbute to vertical striging if the ignition is inconsistant.

I'm not I just think that anymore "adjustment" on my part may result in a "broke" rifle. To do it over I would of broke it down into steps of adjustment and re-assmebled the rifle each time to monitor improvment to see which one had the most effect. Still might try that if I do not see a change after trying Griff's method.

[J Miller]

WCF3030,

<snip>

There's an article in the leverguns section devoted to them that has info on accurizing 94's. Much of it is related to the barrel bands, stock, and their fit.

Malamute just said something we haven't covered here yet. The fit of the stock. If there is any shifting of the stock during shooting it can contribute to the vertical stringing. Check that.
I have had 94s where the stock felt solid with the tang screw cranked down, but loosen it up and the stock would shift up and down at the front. I bedded those with epoxy. I can't say positively the accuracy improved, but it sure did not hurt any.

Joe

[Nath]

I would not entirely give up on the hammer strike idea. Light hits will contrbute to vertical striging if the ignition is inconsistant. The fact that you halved the stringing with cleaning up the insides and reducing the rebound arms makes me think you have some problem with that. Getting a decent trigger pull weight with a clean letoff will also help with accuracy, even if the gun is otherwise perfect.

I also wouldn't give up on an entire model because of a problem like this. Many simply install a half cock lower tang and have had good ignition, and, if I recall correctly, better groups.

I for one would like to have an AE in 30-30 cal. I have pre-war and pre-64's mostly, but would like one with a scope, and the AE's are perfect for that.

There's an article in the leverguns section devoted to them that has info on accurizing 94's. Much of it is related to the barrel bands, stock, and their fit.

Did all that on mine, nothing changed! I even removed all the rebound, no change!

N

[86er]

I am far from a W94 expert but I tried a simple experiment with some of my own guns, in particular a 45 Colt AE, a 357 AE and a 30-30 AE. They would either string or produce a few shots touching and a few fliers. I made sure the fore-end was not touching the barrel much and the bands were loose. Next, I shot several 5 shot groups loading the rifle single shot only. Second, I shot several 5 shot groups starting with 3 rds in the mag and 1 in the chamber. Last, I fired 5 shot groups with the mag full to capacity and 1 rd in the chamber, replacing the round in the mag back to full capacity after each shot. What I found was that the rifles actually grouped best with the mag full to capacity. Next best accuracy was single-shot with an empty mag. Last, of course was a partially full mag tube. While I do not know exactly why this happens I theorize that the mag spring and plug and moving under recoil, moreso with a few rounds in the tube. This must be creating a back and forth momentum that effects the barrel harmonics or the recoil motion. I can get nice little groups shooting with a full mag of cartridges, so I know the rifles potential and it is sighted in for the utmost precision with the first shot (that which counts the most). Subsequent shots may string some or open the group depending on the individual rifle, but I know exactly what to expect. Here I have figured out how to squeeze out group accuracy and plan ahead for subsequent shots without any mechanical manipulation of the rifle. I suspect if I did more mechanical alteration I could get even more accuracy. The 357 is giving 1 3/4" 5 shot groups @ 100 yds rested on the front of the receiverIf I load the mag and shoot-shoot-shoot the group will open to about 3". The 45 Colt would do 1 1/4" but opens to 2 3/4" with stringing if I shoot 4 from the mag plus the initial. The 30-30 shoots 1 1/2" groups with a full mag but if I keep shooting with a partially full mag it strings and opens to 3 1/2". I no longer own the 45 or the 30-30, but I told this to the new owner and they have noticed it holds true. It wouldn't hurt for you to see how the groups compare with the 3 different loaded rifle techniques and take it from there to a mechanical manipulation. Good luck!

[Malamute]

I would not entirely give up on the hammer strike idea. Light hits will contrbute to vertical striging if the ignition is inconsistant. The fact that you halved the stringing with cleaning up the insides and reducing the rebound arms makes me think you have some problem with that. Getting a decent trigger pull weight with a clean letoff will also help with accuracy, even if the gun is otherwise perfect.

I also wouldn't give up on an entire model because of a problem like this. Many simply install a half cock lower tang and have had good ignition, and, if I recall correctly, better groups.

I for one would like to have an AE in 30-30 cal. I have pre-war and pre-64's mostly, but would like one with a scope, and the AE's are perfect for that.

There's an article in the leverguns section devoted to them that has info on accurizing 94's. Much of it is related to the barrel bands, stock, and their fit.

Did all that on mine, nothing changed! I even removed all the rebound, no change!

N

Nath, what did the groups look like? I understand what you're saying about the lever pin, it isnt anything I've heard as having a part in accuracy or not. It may be a factor, I don't know, but there other things that affect many guns that are generally correctible. The light barrels that most carbines have are often tempermental as to what loads they shoot well, and can vary from one gun to the next, same as 22's can vary as to what ammo they shoot best. Many bolt guns are the same way, light barrels can be tempermental as to what loads they like, tho some seem to shoot about anything well. Go figure. Not saying the lever pin isn't of concern, but nobodies done any work exploring it that I know of, as there is often other things that do work.

I had an early post 64 carbine that never shot well. I slugged the bore, it was several thousandths oversize. I rebarreled it. I've had other 94's that shot extremely well with some loads, not so much with others.

[Old Savage]

86er, with different number of cartridges in the mag tube you are at the least changing the weight and balance for each shot.

[J Miller]

The magazine being full, partially full, or nearly empty will have several different effects on the rifle.
Balance will go from muzzle heavy to neutral at best or muzzle light at the worst. A good example of this is the early Win 94AE Trappers in .45 Colt. They have very thin lightweight barrels. When the magazine is full they balance about right, but with each shot you fire they get noticeably lighter in the muzzle and heavier in the butt. This causes the butt of the gun to want to slide down. Within the 9 rounds in the magazine you go from holding the muzzle up to holding the butt stock up. That can and will radically affect the grouping. That is one reason I've about quit shooting the Trapper.

The other thing 86er mentioned was the magazine spring and follower moving within the tube differently with each cartridge fired. That is something I hadn't considered. With each round that's fired the tension the spring has on the inside of the magazine tube is reduced. That tension is directly connected to the rifles barrel at the magazine mounting points and has to have an effect on barrel vibration.

My additional thought about that is would cutting the spring and reducing it's tension like a lot of folks do, reduce or exacerbate any potential problem.

To be honest I have not had stringing problems with a 94 Win in 30-30 that a good cleaning and reassembly didn't fix.

The 94AE Trapper in .45 Colt is the only one and it's problem is due to the light whippy barrel.

Just theories really.

Joe

[Nath]

I would not entirely give up on the hammer strike idea. Light hits will contrbute to vertical striging if the ignition is inconsistant. The fact that you halved the stringing with cleaning up the insides and reducing the rebound arms makes me think you have some problem with that. Getting a decent trigger pull weight with a clean letoff will also help with accuracy, even if the gun is otherwise perfect.

I also wouldn't give up on an entire model because of a problem like this. Many simply install a half cock lower tang and have had good ignition, and, if I recall correctly, better groups.

I for one would like to have an AE in 30-30 cal. I have pre-war and pre-64's mostly, but would like one with a scope, and the AE's are perfect for that.

There's an article in the leverguns section devoted to them that has info on accurizing 94's. Much of it is related to the barrel bands, stock, and their fit.

Did all that on mine, nothing changed! I even removed all the rebound, no change!

N

Nath, what did the groups look like? I understand what you're saying about the lever pin, it isnt anything I've heard as having a part in accuracy or not. It may be a factor, I don't know, but there other things that affect many guns that are generally correctible. The light barrels that most carbines have are often tempermental as to what loads they shoot well, and can vary from one gun to the next, same as 22's can vary as to what ammo they shoot best. Many bolt guns are the same way, light barrels can be tempermental as to what loads they like, tho some seem to shoot about anything well. Go figure. Not saying the lever pin isn't of concern, but nobodies done any work exploring it that I know of, as there is often other things that do work.

I had an early post 64 carbine that never shot well. I slugged the bore, it was several thousandths oversize. I rebarreled it. I've had other 94's that shot extremely well with some loads, not so much with others.

I just been looking for the photo's and can not find them! They were around 4" consisting of flyers, any bullet, any powder with the exception of light bullets (110grn).
The madening thing was it would occasionaly print a couple together and usually the first one went where it was needed but not always!
The 110g loads would go inside 2" at 100 all day long, that is why I suspect an upset bolt via the lever link pin. I did some good long shots with that load!
I wish I had studied mine for high spots around the levers eye.
If I still had mine I would open the lever eye a 1/64" and see if I could note a change.
I still miss how that thing carried

The AE I had in the 90's was a much better gun that shot any load under 2" all day long. I knew where I was with that one all the time!

Nath.

[Tycer]

Re the light strikes: Have you checked how far the pin protrudes through the firing pin hole? I had a burr inside one of my guns that held the pin back a bit.

Re stringing: My 94s are all very sensitive to placement of the forearm on the rest. I use a piece of tape on both the rest and the forearm with an index mark to assure exact placement each shot when doing load development. My Win 94 357 that I shoot the 360 DW from consistently shoots a full two inches different windage from the bench than from my hands.

[Nath]

I never shot any of mine from a bench, varmints stopped me using one!

I have to be able to shoot off hand well, all my rifles have to, thats why I miss those little carbines so much being short in the arm and of small hands (not everything is tiny ). The Rem Tac 700 is a bit of a handfull by comparison!

I distinctly remember shooting on seperate occasions two 150yard crows off hand with my 90's made AE. Why o' why did I swap it

N.