Win. 1895 .38-72 Range Report #2 (Neck Turned Cases)

[Shasta]

Well folks, here's another step in my quest to get my 1898 vintage Model 95 Winchester .38-72 to shoot. For those that missed the first report, here is the link to that thread:

http://www.levergunscommunity.com/viewt ... =1&t=37307

I really appreciate the willingness of members here to offer suggestions to help me along, and I want to address some from the first thread. A couple of you spoke highly of Hawk bullets, and I did check the website, but at $80 per hundred that is way too high a price for me, especially since I enjoy casting my own bullets. That much money would buy me a nice bullet mould!

Sixgun suggested marking a dummy case neck to determine the tight spot in the chamber. My chamber cast and case measurements told me the entire neck area was tight, but I took the advice and tried a marked case. Yep, the entire neck area was too tight to chamber a dummy round. I tried running the bulleted dummy case part way into the full length sizer die, but that was a definate no-go also.

Thinning the case mouths as suggested by KirkD seemed the best way to go, but I knew I could not get a good even job by trying to thin them with sandpaper. After doing a lot of internet research on the subject, I ordered the RCBS Hand Held Case Neck Turner, choosing that brand simply because I have always had good luck with RCBS products and they guarantee them. The one small hitch was it required rotating the cartridge case by hand with the included case holder, and I knew my arthritic hands would not tolerate that, so I cheated a little bit. I ordered a Lee Zip Trim Case Trimmer Universal 3-Jaw Chuck Case Holder and a Lee Case Spinner Spindle with Drill Shank for use with the mentioned 3-jaw chuck to spin the cases with a cordless drill.

Now, I am no fan of Lee products, having always considered them cheap junk due to experiences from many years ago. I ordered the case spinner with some trepidation, but it seemed the most practical way to do what I needed. I must say that when operated with care, it works very well indeed, as did of course the RCBS tool. Here are some pictures of the Lee and RCBS tools:






The Bertram brass cases had a neck thickness of .014". I used the RCBS Neck Turner to remove half-a-thousandth per pass until I had reduced the neck thickness to .010". I found that very shallow cuts were necessary to keep the tool cutting without binding. It took me about four hours to complete the forty cases I had (good thing I'm retired!). I then loaded a couple test rounds, one with a Lyman 375248 bullet weighing 240 grains and sized to .378", and one with an RCBS 37-250-FN gas checked bullet weighing 264 grains and sized .379". The Lyman bulleted cartridge slipped into the chamber with only light thumb pressure, but the RCBS loaded round had to be levered in, although it levered in fairly easily. Satisfied they would work, I proceeded to load five-round test loads of two different powders for each bullet for a total of twenty rounds. They all passed the chambering test. Now on to the range test...

I had a very difficult time seeing the shallow rear sight notch. I tried to reverse the insert to the wider side, but it refused to budge so I just continued on. All shots were fired over a chronograph at 8"x11" targets placed at 50 yards. Bore was wiped with one Hoppes soaked patch followed by one dry patch between each five-shot test group.
First up was the Lyman 375248 bullet ahead of 30.0 grains of Re7. With the rear sight all the way down and using a 6 o'clock hold, only three widely scattered shots hit the target, but by golly those bullets weren't tumbling! Light was bad on the chronograph, but the one read I got showed 1,884 FPS which is just too fast for that bullet. There was some light bore leading evident on the cleaning patches.

Next up was the same load but with the RCBS gas-checked bullet. The chronograph showed an average speed of 1,699 FPS, which was apparently OK for this bullet as I got no bore leading and a reasonable 1 1/4" group with one shot expanding it to a 2 1/2" group.

Next I tried the RCBS bullet ahead of 35.0 grains IMR 3031. I got only one read from the chronograph, 1,730 FPS. Again a reasonable velocity for this bullet, no leading and it shot four into 1 1/2" with a fifth expanding the group to 3".




The fourth target was shot with the Lyman bullet ahead of the 35 grain charge of IMR 3031. I got no read from the chronograph, but shots were very widely scattered with only three on the target. I suspect speed is again way too fast for this plain-based bullet, but they did go the distance without tumbling. The rifle bore again showed signs of leading that looked like it would get much worse with any extended firing. Definitely have to slow it down to maybe 1,400 FPS with this bullet. I will try it with some 5744 powder too.

The good news is that thanks to neck turning the cases I now have my bullets flying straight, at least out to fifty yards anyway. Now to experiment with some different velocities, and I think I'll try sizing the RCBS bullet down another thousandth inch for easier chambering, hopefully without affecting bore fit too badly. I will also do some testing with bullets cast in the original Winchester .38-72 mould, but I think the gas-checked RCBS is going to be the better bullet from what I've seen so far.

Hopefully "Range Report #3" will come in the not-too-distant future.

LLink to Range Report #3: http://www.levergunscommunity.com/viewt ... =1&t=37563

SHASTA

[KirkD]

Outstanding report!! That RCBS gas checked bullet may be the way for me to go. It will save me ordering a custom GC mould. I'm finding the plain base bullets are very touchy. It will be interesting to see if your bullets start wobbling slightly at 1,400 fps, although the ones you are using are a bit lighter, therefore shorter and may stablilize. As I mentioned in my PM's to you, I'm having stabilization problems probably due to the long skinny bullet and 1:26 twist. Winchester increased the twist rate in the 38-72 twice over subsequent years.

Question: Where are you getting the gas checks for that RCBS bullet?

[Shasta]

Kirk,

I stocked up on those .375 gas checks from Midway when they came on sale several years ago. They cost about $32/thousand now.

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/de ... ber=381078

SHASTA

[Sixgun]

OK, this is getting interesting!

Check your muzzle and make sure the crown is even. In the old days, cleaning was an important thing to do and many muzzles/crowns are worn from slamming a dirty steel rod up and down. gas checks are a must for old guns.

I can't remember what I said in the other post so I'll repeat whats in my head. ---In order to get a fatter than normal bullet to chamber, try trimming about a 1/16 of an inch at a time off the case until it chambers. Sometimes, an 1/8th inch to 3/16" is needed, but you can get a .379 or fatter bullet to chamber-if you cut some brass off the mouth.----just seat the bullet to normal OAL---its OK if a lube groove shows.

Another thing I know to be true is to load a few rounds with about 8-9 grains of Unique---loose in the case--------in other words, keep the velocity from 950-1050 with a fast powder---Unique has always worked for me. In every 45-70 I've had (maybe 30) if 11 grains of Unique did not work I sold the rifle.-------


Good luck in your quest---as the Chinese say, "nothing of importance is gained without great effort" ----------------------Sixgun

[KirkD]

Shasta, I checked that RCBS bullet on Buffalo Arms. It says it is a .376-37-250 GC bullet. How fat is it when it drops from the mould unsized? I would definitely want .378 or preferably .379".

[Shasta]

Kirk,

The batch I moulded up last winter measure .379 as-cast, hardness on Saeco tester is 9, or about 17.1 BHN. Weight is 258 grains before gas check is applied, after gas check and sizing weight is 264 gr.

My weights sometimes vary depending on alloy used. I don't know the alloy composition as I just add lead or linotype to come up with a bullet that weighs somewhere near 260 grains as-cast.

SHASTA

[KirkD]

Thanks, that is good to know.

[Nath]

Nice going.

How about a change of target if you are struggling a bit. How about a 2" or 3" square, maybe diamond position??

I was just wondering if the flyers are you struggling with the targets.

Best wishes.

Nath.

[Cliff]

Good article and interesting information. I have never owned or shot a 38-72 so I don't know the case capacity. I was going to suggest for a plain based bullet use a styrofoam wad, but the powder has to reach to the base, I don't like case fillers. Use a stryofoam coffee cup, used a slightly belled empty case, with the mouth chamfered to an edge. Press the case into the coffee cup to cut the wad, what helps is put a nail with right sized head to push the wad out of the case. When loading, after charging the case with powder, place the wad in the mouth of the case and allow the bullet to push it in. The stryofoam will burn up in the barrel and it acts as a heat shield and protects the base of the lead bullet. It does work well in some calibers. No residue left in case or barrel after shooting. Surprising how helpful it can be in some guns that require gas checks. This idea was thought up by some NASA scientist who were shooters. They determined how much insulation was needed to absorb the heat and be consumed. They were inspired by the heat shields used on the space capsules crunched the numbers and found the styrofoam was ideal. Some shooters will use the styrofoam on meat trays sold in buther shops and such. The styrofoam, leaves no harmful residue in the barrel and is usually consumed entirely in the barrel. Just an idea, but if there is nothing to hold the stryrofoam gascheck in place I probably wouldn't try it. Just thought I would pass it along. Get a lot of gas check out of one coffee cup as well. Have a good weekend and all the best.

[Ben_Rumson]

Great report... Nice job on thinning the case necks... With those thinned cases and the good results you got with BP last time I’d be anxious to try the thinned cases with your BP load again but now use the .379” Lyman bullet you used this time instead of the .377” bullets you used last time...Particularly IF, IF the 17.1 BHN .379” sized bullets are the same BHN as the .377” Lyman bullets that bumped up last time... If so perhaps the .379” will bump up to a perfect .381”fit, the .379” having a two thou head start over the .377” therefore establishing that the 17.1 BHN bullet will bump up enough ...With that knowledge you may have reason to try a different smokeless powder on your 17.1 BHN GC bullet that may bump them up enough for a correct fit, like trying the faster IMR SR4759 that Kirk mentioned in range Report #1.... Or just start there to start with and not bother with the BP testing.....BTW 20-1 alloy runs BHN 10