OT...Or Not....Ammo/bullets into Canada

[Bullard4075]

Man came into the store today looking for special ( http://www.hornady.com/store/MonoFlex-Bullets/)
bullets to take back to Canada with him. As we did not have them I was unable to help
him but for some time I was a sounding board for his frustrations.
According to him the border guards on the AMERICAN side of the border is the problem.
Once again, according to him (while returning to Canada) if the American guards find you have ammunition or reloading
components they will seize them with no return.
Searching the Internet (http://www.canadawelcomesyou.net/firearms.html) and this forum
I have been able to find Canada's laws but not the American laws.
I told him I would try to research it from my end as he was afraid of being "border blacklisted" if he asked at his end.
Anyone have knowledge, advice, experience or even a web site to help me research this.
Would it be legal for me to mail him bullets (not loaded ammunition) from the US to Canada?

[Old Ironsights]

Sounds like the beginnings of a TV show...

Are you Smarter than a Mexican?...

[adirondakjack]

NO ammunition, cases, bullets or primers may be exported from the US without a proper license. If you are travelling to Canada with guns and have a proper permit, yes, you can bring ammo (SASS members do this to attend Canadian matches). But if you simply purchase ammo in the US and expect to take it to canada, fugeddaboudit. US State Department rules require an export license to transfer even a single empty case or bullet to Canada. The license takes about 18 mos and costs about 2 grand to get. I tried to get one when I got in the brass business. the State Department discouraged me.

The US is a signatory to a treaty originally written by the country of Jamaica, limiting export of ammo, cartridge brass, bullets, etc to ONLY those licensed individuals or those with transit permits for a match or for hunting. This was done to help Jamaica in their efforts to disarm drug gangs. They complained no matter how they restricted ammo sale there, folks simply imported stuff from the US. Now they simply black market it in on sailboats..... (nobody checks live-aboards when they sail in unless they are otherwise "hinky". It simply isn't done.)

[86er]

We have to have an ITAR permit issued by the State Dept for export of small arms ammunition and any components thereof. Along with that you need the BATFE small arms ammo manufacturers license, then a temporary export of small arms permit. Then you need a US Customs and Border Protection ladden of export disclosure for small arms, components, hazardous materials or explosives. The ITAR cost $2350 per year and takes about 7 months to actually get. The paperwork is so extensive that the State Dept actually offers an all day seminar in how to fill out the applications.

[Washita]

Maybe the BATF would grant you an exception if you are a violent drug smuggler & killer, as they've done with Mexican drug lords.

[KirkD]

The OP is right. Canada Customs permits a Canadian to bring back quite a large quantity of ammo (I forget the exact amount, but it is quite a pile). As pointed out by other posters above, it is US regs that are the problem. I don't understand why that Canadian fellow doesnt just buy his ammo up here in Canada. Hornady ammo is all over the place.

[kimwcook]

I can't address the treaty, but I can address the zero tolerance policy on ammunition or components at the border. Recently had a homicide suspect attempt to cross the border at San Ysidro, CA into Mexico. He was found with ammunition and was detained. They ran his prints and lo and behold he had a nation wide extradition arrest warrant for murder. In talking with Customs and Border Enforcement they told me they've had a zero tolerance order going on because of the Mexican bureaucrats screaming about large amounts of firearms and ammo crossing the border into Mexico. Kept a murderer from getting into Mexico and possibly away for a long time.

[AJMD429]

The US is a signatory to a treaty originally written by the country of Jamaica, limiting export of ammo, cartridge brass, bullets, etc to ONLY those licensed individuals or those with transit permits for a match or for hunting. This was done to help Jamaica in their efforts to disarm drug gangs.

Wow, I'll bet that totally eliminated the black-market for illegal drugs...!
No doubt the gang-bangers are totally gone and became choir-boys, right...?

I can't address the treaty, but I can address the zero tolerance policy on ammunition or components at the border. Recently had a homicide suspect attempt to cross the border at San Ysidro, CA into Mexico. He was found with ammunition and was detained. They ran his prints and lo and behold he had a nation wide extradition arrest warrant for murder. In talking with Customs and Border Enforcement they told me they've had a zero tolerance order going on because of the Mexican bureaucrats screaming about large amounts of firearms and ammo crossing the border into Mexico. Kept a murderer from getting into Mexico and possibly away for a long time.

You could 'run the prints' of everyone going into the local bar, everyone buying pencils at Wal-Mart, or everyone wearing Nike shoes, and 'keep a murderer from getting away', so I'm not sure having a 'zero tolerance policy on ammunition or components' is sensible public policy. By that logic you could justify pretty much any prohibition, especially evil things like guns and 'bullets'... Such laws endanger society more than protect it, because governments historically and consistently prove far more dangerous to the lives of citizens than ordinary criminals and murderers are, and giving them too many intrusive tools and rules they can use down the road to disarm the ordinary citizen never seems to work out well. A few lives may (and I emphasize the 'may') be saved from murderers, but down the road ten times that many typically fall prey to genocide. For the past century or so, countries with 'reasonable' gun laws like that have used their own police and military to murder something like 5,000 innocent citizens per day, consistently - do we really want to go there...?

[adirondakjack]

AJMD, I didn't say it made sense. Im just relating what US Dept of State told me when I inquired. There's a treaty involving caribbean and north american countries that was written at the behest of Jamaica...

[AJMD429]

AJMD, I didn't say it made sense. Im just relating what US Dept of State told me when I inquired. There's a treaty involving caribbean and north american countries that was written at the behest of Jamaica...

Unfortunately, my skills using the 'emoticons' aren't good enough to convey that I was mostly griping along with you, and not intending to attack the messenger... (or or or or maybe )

[Canuck Bob]

The most restrictive gun control over borders is the United States. Also I would not want to get put on any person of interest list because of some bullets.

As a Canadian I'm coming to grips with certain realities. First shooting as a hobby where lots of guns and ammo is burnt is expensive. Second, I'm finding that anything unusual is unlikely to be available on short notice. My plan is to work up a j bullet load for my rifles and then stockpile the components for supply. Dirk is right that much is available in Canada. What is not readily available is usually orderable.

For hunters who shoot a few boxes a year and don't get active in the shooting hobby are luckier than our American friends. We still have the best Resident hunting in the world by my estimation.

Want to save a ton of grief pick standard calibers in Canada, 30-30, 308, 243, 30-06 and selection is superb. 30 cal bullets are everywhere, wish I had one rifle in that caliber! I'm a masochist and search out 32 Special, 32-20 and rifle capable 444 bullets. Brass is the biggest headache but orderable.

Tooling is ok to ship as in dies, molds, lead pots and such. So cast bullets are made for order for Canadians except for the price of lead. The problem is added shipping costs and brokerage fees.

Don't try crossing any border with scopes, sights, gun parts, powder, brass, primer, bullets, or expect Homeland Security to pay a call. There are a few folks who are willing to brave the paperwork and offer import/export service.

[adirondakjack]

Bob, the only exception to your otherwise fine post is "small" gun parts (no receivers, bolts, etc) with a value of less than $100 USD. We can still ship those with no hassles. I guess the US Goobermint figures a sight blade isn't dangerous in and of itself Har!

[Canuck Bob]

Bob, the only exception to your otherwise fine post is "small" gun parts (no receivers, bolts, etc) with a value of less than $100 USD. We can still ship those with no hassles. I guess the US Goobermint figures a sight blade isn't dangerous in and of itself Har!

That is good to know. What about old style period correct sights like the Schutzen Tang Sights?

Are you a dealeror shop?

[Mike D.]

Send any sights but be aware that the declared value may not exceed $100. No problem if you are willing to take the chance of mailing a $1000 sight with no insurance. I have done it without incident.

[BigSky56]

I think the northern guy is a little confused, when going north the US side doesnt check you just the Canadians do. Ive been thru 5 of them 2 in No. Idaho and 3 in western MT. So if is not against Canadian law wheres the problem. danny

[pdentrem]

US border agents will stop and search cars on their side of the border many times during the month. They setup a trap and all vehicles are looked at. It is their way of peeing off all people crossing the border, US residents or foreigners alike. Happens here on the border crossing of Buffalo and Niagara Falls very regularly.

[adirondakjack]

Bob, the only exception to your otherwise fine post is "small" gun parts (no receivers, bolts, etc) with a value of less than $100 USD. We can still ship those with no hassles. I guess the US Goobermint figures a sight blade isn't dangerous in and of itself Har!

That is good to know. What about old style period correct sights like the Schutzen Tang Sights?

Are you a dealeror shop?

I run a little website catering the the Cowboy Action crowd.
Hint, there might be a time when paperwork gets mailed separately from a part if the retail price is a little over $100. What the customer PAYS is the 'real" price, and that is whatever we say it is, comprende?

+1 on Canadians and Americans alike getting jacked up at the border by the US folks. They sometimes set up "vehicle screening" on this side, a few miles from the border and harass everyone equally. One poor slob lost his BOAT when drug dogs found a stub of a joint in an ash tray, left there by his kid's friends..... What woulda normally been a $125 ticket ended up a huge deal (trafficking), and a $40K boat gone.

[Canuck Bob]

We just got a report of a trucker caught bringing in 16 guns at a Montana crossing. He had an American residency card and that and his passport were scooped. It is unclear if he was a gun nut or a criminal smuggler but he is in a world of hurt. The Canadians caught him but it seems they unloaded his truck to find the goods. Indicates they knew it was there.

Just visited your site. Very interesting stuff.