I think I'm done with reduced loads

[El Chivo]

because it seems like the accuracy is not there.

I just fired off the last of my 35 Rem with pistol cartridge bullets, and results have been disappointing. They grouped ok at short yardage but at 200 were all over the place.

Yet I do well with the same bullets in a .357 magnum case.

I have the same problem with 30-30; inaccurate and inconsistent unless I fill up the case.

I'm starting to think cartridges aren't really all that versatile, that there is a best loading for each; some percentage of case capacity that it likes. So for slow velocities use 38 special, medium .357 magnum, high 30-30 or larger cased cartridges.

Kind of like golf clubs in a way, you use the same swing but different clubs change the arc of the ball and give you more or less distance. So when I want medium velocity, I'm going to shoot .357 and vice versa.

Not looking for advice or tips here, I've done my experimenting. Just throwing the topic out for discussion.

[missionary5155]

Good morning
Reduced loads to me is all about application. A bullet needs enough RPM´s to be stable at a certain range. Reduce that RPM under stability and it will wooble right off the paper. That is one reason I find great delight shooting the lowly Round Ball when I am looking for a reduced load. A RB needs very little spin to be stable and it packs all the wallop I find necessary to dispatch critters up close. A few grains of 231 or Bullseye will generate enough FPS in caliber .375 or 38-55 that far exceeds any .22 in thumping value & is near inaudible at 50 feet... of course my wife says I am half deaf anyway.
Now I cannot say I have found any reason to try shooting at 200 yards with RB in a reduced load... I have too much fun crawling about ditches and woods edges when up north there eliminating ground hogs & other bean eaters. But I cannot see why it would not shoot as accurate as a round ball propelled by BP out of a muzzle loader. Just kick up the FPS so it has enough velocity to be spin stabalized and not have to bounce too many times to hit the target.
Mike in Peru

[olyinaz]

Perhaps try some more bulky powders that fill the case better like Trail Boss or Blackhorn?

Oly

[Old Savage]

Colonel Whelen, who I think was one of the proponents of reduced loads in rifles did a lot of work with different rifles to find a load that hit POA at 25 yds and were intended for close range small game with a hunting rifle not long range target shooting. In that arena you get into funky things like going back down through the sound barrier and bullet destabilization.

[Pisgah]

I really have a hard time figuring why you'd be much concerned over 200 yard accuracy with a reduced load. To my minds, reduced loads are for close range, and I don't give much of a hoot what they'll do beyond maybe 50 yards.

[Terry Murbach]

because it seems like the accuracy is not there.

I just fired off the last of my 35 Rem with pistol cartridge bullets, and results have been disappointing. They grouped ok at short yardage but at 200 were all over the place.

Yet I do well with the same bullets in a .357 magnum case.

I have the same problem with 30-30; inaccurate and inconsistent unless I fill up the case.

I'm starting to think cartridges aren't really all that versatile, that there is a best loading for each; some percentage of case capacity that it likes. So for slow velocities use 38 special, medium .357 magnum, high 30-30 or larger cased cartridges.

Kind of like golf clubs in a way, you use the same swing but different clubs change the arc of the ball and give you more or less distance. So when I want medium velocity, I'm going to shoot .357 and vice versa.

Not looking for advice or tips here, I've done my experimenting. Just throwing the topic out for discussion.

THE ANSWER TO YOUR POST IS IN YOUR POST. THE BULLETS HAVE GONE UNSTABLE ON THEIR WAY TO 200 YARDS [ WHY SO FAR.....WITH REDUCED LOADS...I DO NOT UNDERSTAND THAT AT ALL] AND YET THE SAME BULLETS DO WELL FROM YOUR 357MAG........BINGO !!!! THERE IS THE ANSWER FOR YOU AS PLAIN AS THE NOSE ON YOUR FACE.
BY THE WAY, I HAVE SHOT AND KILLED PRAIRIE RATS AT A HELL OF A WAYS BEYOND 200 YARDS WITH A 35REM 336 AND 357MAG JHP BULLETS. THE SAME GOES FOR 31141 BULLETS FROM A WINCHESTER 94 30-30 CARBINE.

[Old Savage]

Unless you know the mind of El Chivo it is hard to appreciate how he likes to test certain ideas that interest him. Never know what it will turn up next.

[C. Cash]

The most accurate loads in my 356 Win. with the 200 gr. FNGC have been slow(er) burning powders that fill the case. Best has been IMR 4350 and next best has been H4895. The 4350 load only clocks 1800-1900 fps according to the Lyman manual and the H4895 should be going 2000-2100 fps, if I am figuring it correctly. Standing or sitting, both loads are gentle and never saw the need for reduced burrito gas and/or pistol bullet loads. My one experience with 160 gr. WFNGC's did not go too well.

[junkbug]

[quote]THE ANSWER TO YOUR POST IS IN YOUR POST. THE BULLETS HAVE GONE UNSTABLE ON THEIR WAY TO 200 YARDS [ WHY SO FAR.....WITH REDUCED LOADS...I DO NOT UNDERSTAND THAT AT ALL] AND YET THE SAME BULLETS DO WELL FROM YOUR 357MAG........BINGO !!!! THERE IS THE ANSWER FOR YOU AS PLAIN AS THE NOSE ON YOUR FACE.
BY THE WAY, I HAVE SHOT AND KILLED PRAIRIE RATS AT A HELL OF A WAYS BEYOND 200 YARDS WITH A 35REM 336 AND 357MAG JHP BULLETS. THE SAME GOES FOR 31141 BULLETS FROM A WINCHESTER 94 30-30 CARBINE.
or larger cased cartridges.[quote]


Not to insult anyone, but I do not uderstand this response.

Are you refering to different rifling twists of different cartridges stabilizing the same bullet properly at a different velocity?

[Griff]

THE ANSWER TO YOUR POST IS IN YOUR POST. THE BULLETS HAVE GONE UNSTABLE ON THEIR WAY TO 200 YARDS [ WHY SO FAR.....WITH REDUCED LOADS...I DO NOT UNDERSTAND THAT AT ALL] AND YET THE SAME BULLETS DO WELL FROM YOUR 357MAG........BINGO !!!! THERE IS THE ANSWER FOR YOU AS PLAIN AS THE NOSE ON YOUR FACE.
BY THE WAY, I HAVE SHOT AND KILLED PRAIRIE RATS AT A HELL OF A WAYS BEYOND 200 YARDS WITH A 35REM 336 AND 357MAG JHP BULLETS. THE SAME GOES FOR 31141 BULLETS FROM A WINCHESTER 94 30-30 CARBINE.

Not to insult anyone, but I do not uderstand this response.
Are you refering to different rifling twists of different cartridges stabilizing the same bullet properly at a different velocity?

No, outta the same gun, a reduced loading is only going to give a bullet so much rotational stability. Extending the range and expecting the same accuracy is like climbing Mt. Everest, then expecting to climb that much higher again. Yer gonna run outta gas. Just as gravity is pulling the bullet earthward, gravity is also slowing the spin on the bullet, decreasing its stability. Ergo, its accuracy.

[Griff]

And the above doesn't EVEN begin to account for the other environmental forces that act on the bullet, wind, air density, temperature, humidity. With extended ranges those forces also have a longer time to act on the projectile.

[Old Savage]

What I am intrigued to hear here is TERRY's report of the .357 bullets in the Marlin. I have always thought this had a great possibility in the gun for all seasons area. But never any info on the lighter end as to actual performance. And by a guy who has likely really wrung it out. I would like to know more.

[El Chivo]

my main motivation for using the lead pistol cartridge bullets is that I'm cheap; I wanted to have an inexpensive bullet for recreational target shooting and silhouette.

For hunting I don't really care about the cost of the bullets but for a day at the range, when I want to shoot 100 or so, it's better if the bullets are less than 10 cents each as opposed to 35 cents each.

And since the cheapest bullets are lead I need a low velocity to avoid leading. Having such loads for 35 Rem and 30-30 would let me shoot those guns for something other than sighting in or hunting.

But I'd rather have the accuracy. I am getting wistful remembering how well those guns shot with Remington factory ammo. I think I'd rather duplicate that and shoot just a handful than to lob cheap bullets downrange.

[Old Savage]

Good points there but it is not necessary to keep velocities low to avoid leading.

[rogn]

Every gun and bullet combination is a law unto itself. My last try at reduced loads was with a 7mm WSM and a cast bullet. Looking for something near- or subsonic; a fools erand. What came about was a 135gr Lyman, at 1100FPS or less with a varied charge of an old shotshell powder. Accuracy at 100 was under 1 1/2". I posted that on cast boolit at the same time another fellow was using the same bullet in a TC application and his accuracy was OK at 50yd and off the paper at 100. I never shot mine over 120 yds but it was always, with trajectory in mind spot on. So, all Im saying researching, experimenting with one gun only tells you about that gun and no others. Bullet stability almost by its nature and definition is not really a stable state...? Or at best only a passing phase.

[El Chivo]

thanks OS that's a good point - and since Oregon Trail brags they never lead, maybe I'll push them a little, with slower powders, and see what happens.

Unfortunately they don't make a .359 size. But I can try boosting the 30-30's.

Still haven't gotten around to buying that flame-retardant paint to try making "paint-on" gas checks.

[jackruff]

THE ANSWER TO YOUR POST IS IN YOUR POST. THE BULLETS HAVE GONE UNSTABLE ON THEIR WAY TO 200 YARDS [ WHY SO FAR.....WITH REDUCED LOADS...I DO NOT UNDERSTAND THAT AT ALL] AND YET THE SAME BULLETS DO WELL FROM YOUR 357MAG........BINGO !!!! THERE IS THE ANSWER FOR YOU AS PLAIN AS THE NOSE ON YOUR FACE.
BY THE WAY, I HAVE SHOT AND KILLED PRAIRIE RATS AT A HELL OF A WAYS BEYOND 200 YARDS WITH A 35REM 336 AND 357MAG JHP BULLETS. THE SAME GOES FOR 31141 BULLETS FROM A WINCHESTER 94 30-30 CARBINE.

Not to insult anyone, but I do not uderstand this response.
Are you refering to different rifling twists of different cartridges stabilizing the same bullet properly at a different velocity?

No, outta the same gun, a reduced loading is only going to give a bullet so much rotational stability. Extending the range and expecting the same accuracy is like climbing Mt. Everest, then expecting to climb that much higher again. Yer gonna run outta gas. Just as gravity is pulling the bullet earthward, gravity is also slowing the spin on the bullet, decreasing its stability. Ergo, its accuracy.

Gravity will have no effect on the spin of the bullet, although air resistance will.

[earlmck]

because it seems like the accuracy is not there.

I just fired off the last of my 35 Rem with pistol cartridge bullets, and results have been disappointing.

Hmmm. I've got at least reasonably satisfactory light cast bullet loads in most of my rifles, but I have to say one of my bigger disappointments is with the 35 Rem and a 180 grain LBT gas-checked bullet that is really top-notch in my revolver. I have other bullets to try, but I acquired the 35 Rem with the idea of using those particular bullets that I thought would be fantabulous. And they have been most unimpressive in the 35 Rem in two different rifles. Maybe we have 35 Rem issues more than general reduced load issues? Anyway, I haven't given up: just haven't kept after it like I should have (Attention diverted by work and family and other guns).

But you did generate some interesting discussion!

[BAGTIC]

The higher the velocity the faster the rpm necessary to keep it stabilized. What causes the bullet to become unstable and tumble is the pressure from air resistance. This pressure increases with speed which is why fast projectiles slow faster than slow ones.

[LeverBob]

My two cents: Murback strikes again....

Reduced loads, catsneeze loads are for short yardages & small game. The observations posted here are correct. They are constructed for: practice, small game & just plain fun. They are cheap to shoot, low on recoil & easy on the gun & you. (After all, you don't run your truck at full power & RPM all the time...do you?). There's no need to run a rifle that way either. After all it is a combustion engine...isn't it? The bullet is the piston, therefore it is not a reciprocating (sp?) engine. It doesn't use the Otto cycle. It is a linear combustion engine. Rev. an engine too high, too long & it blows up. That is not only dumb, but expensive .

I use my 336 MarlinCS mostly for small game (saving my .22 rf stock). My load has been posted sevearal times on this site & on the old site. I kill small game with it to supplement my larder. I have to...work is scarce. My guns feed my wife & I.