Is there such a thing as a "brush" gun (or, really - bullet)

[Canuck Bob]

To me a brush gun is a handy short barreled longarm that you can take into heavy cover with less hardware to hang up on vegetation. Also a an adequate chambering to drop game quick. A brush gun to me is NOT a gun designed to shoot through brush, you don't shoot at game you cannot see, that just isn't safe nor right. ...... To me a short 16" barreled Trapper in 44 mag or 45 Colt would be ideal for allot of my hunting. My 20" barrel 1894 Marlin does good but 4 inches less would be nice. My Trapper 94AE in 357 mag loaded with 180 grain JSPs would work but I feel more comfortable in close quarter with a 44 mag.

Wow you live on the islands and get to hunt! Trade you -30 celsius anyday! If you handload the 45 Colt would be a dandy. Crawling through pig tunnels is awesome, I've been lucky my tunnels are usually made by moose, not as roomy as it sounds but no crawling required.

[AJMD429]

To me a brush gun is a handy short barreled longarm that you can take into heavy cover with less hardware to hang up on vegetation. Also a an adequate chambering to drop game quick.

That is probably the best definition of 'brush' gun.

It is fascinating to read the success of some of the pointy-bullet bottleneck rounds being far better than I'd expect, and yet the good old 12 gauge slug just plows through stuff like a bowling ball.

[madman4570]

I am sure the 45-70 would do well also

No madman, I think the results of real tests (such as you did with the slug gun and the 7mm) have shown that big slow bullets from slow-twist rifles do not do even remotly well when going through brush. If you insist on a rifle the best ones tend to be fast-twist types such as a 6.5x55 with an 8" twist (or maybe one of those 223's with a 7" twist shooting 80 grain 22caliber bullets?)

You may be the only one to have included a rifled slug from a smoothbore shotgun barrel in the test. Looks to me like the Brenneke slug you used would trump anything from a rifled barrel by a wide margin.

Been an interesting thread: thanks for bringing it up, AJDM. And thanks again for your contribution, madman.

Well, I had to find out,and that's why I love this forum.the guys on here are always teaching me something.
earlmck, you were right.
I had to find out so I got some 45-70 Government (400gr WFNGC's coming out of a 22" barrel at 1810fps
What I tried to do with all my tests was duplicate as very close as possible in regards to the exact brush condition in front of the target. (I didn't want to just keep shooting at the target without moving the target because of multiple previous shots thus making the frontal brush less intrusive to the target)I think I got the same size/thickness/amount of frontal brush just about almost exactly the same and it was the same species also.
So, I feel good about the tests.
I was VERY surprised. The 5 shots fired from that 45-70 to the target prior to any brush resulted in 5 hits squarely in the bull.
With the brush in front of the target,only 1 hit the bull(2 inches left of dead center), 1 was 3" low from edge of bull, 1 was 13 inches high from edge of bull, and two were 14 and 15" right of edge of bull.(but, they all did hit the big box somewhere)
But ? having at least a 60% chance of being off target at least a foot(and more?)making a fatal frontal shot at a charging bear??
Given the fact of the size of the bull,(and the box) this shows to me the 45-70 with that type load is not remotely as good as the load that was used from the 12ga shotgun.
I was so dumb founded just for good measure I placed the target in front of the original first used bush(same spot)and fired a last 45-70 round just to see(again, it did not hit the bull,but hit way high almost off the big box. taped the hole,placed the box away from the bush fired the last clincher and it struck in the bull(1 inch from center)
Remember The bull was big(6 inches) and the actual size of box was 42"X 66"
I now know what I need to use if expected to shoot in any brush type condition for a defense against a bear or whatever.

Thanks all for all your knowledge and earlmck(you be da man)

[BenT]

Francis Sell did a test of shooting through a brush in front of a target . I think his results were best with velocities under 2400 fps. My buddy and I were going to do a test this spring with different calibers just for something to do. But it was a cold wet spring and it didn't happen. Vegitation is different no matter were you hunt. So one mans perception of brush is different from anothers. Briars versus saplings. I was going to test shooting through briar batches where deer hide around here.

[Ji in Hawaii]

Just went out back and setup a target on a tall cardboard box (just used a 6" black bull on sheet of printer paper) and placed the box behind a very thick bush(various stems up to size diameter of little finger.(just barely could make out a bull)
The test gun was a 12ga 1972 20" Ithaca Deerslayer Deluxe(smoothbore buck barrel) (inside muzzle diameter of .706)roughly the diameter of Modified/Imp Modified

Slugs were the Brenneke Green Lightnings.(mind you the barrel is tapered smooth (no twist)

Shot 5 rds and all 5 stayed inside the bull I am speechless(I would say,that's a true brush gun)

Do you think the barrel being a smoothbore was an important factor in it's performance through vegetation? Would a rifled slug barrel tend to deflect the slug more readily due to the spin if making contact with vegetation? I have a Winchester model 1300 XLT Featherweight 12 gauge with identical length barrels one rifled, and one smoothbore. Which would be better bear defense shooting identical 3" Brenneke 1-3/8 oz. slugs (1500 FPS)? Is the slug load you're using a more important factor in your results than the barrel? I wish I still lived on Maui where the woods are 10 minutes away to perform a test. My county shooting range is 45 minutes away, and they would never let me perform a test like this anyways.
Honestly, I would always prefer to be shooting at what I can clearly see, and I would say especially at something charging in intent on killing me.

[6pt-sika]

I have some 'TREE GUNS'. After about 6 shots with .348 or 45-70 two 6" yellow birches went down.

I was out one morning early in the season back a few years ago and I was sitting on the ground !

Right about the time I could see well enought to tell bucks from does a pair of 7 pointers came up the hill and were maybe 50 yards away !

I decided to shoot the second one as I assumed he was larger . I was using a Kimber 89BGR Super Grade in 7mm REM MAG with a Leupold Vari XIII 3.5-10AO on top and shooting handloaded Nosler 150 Partitions !

At the crack of the gun the deer turned and went back the way he came and I heard him crash . I blew my grunt tube real quick and the first one that had run off a ways came back and I piled him about PDQ .
The one I shot first had run towards the house so I went towards the second one and as I was walking by where the first one had stood I noticed about a 4 in diameter spaling leaning sideways with a bullet hole right thru the middle and out the back . Well 6 feet past that tree there was a fair amount of blood on the ground . So I went on and got the second deer gutted and drug it to the other one !

I rolled the first one over and the entrance hole was maybe as large as a quarter !
The 150 Partition had opened up as far as it could going thru the sapling and then had gone into and excited the deer that was 4-6 feet behund it !
And no I did not see that tree in the scope , it was early enough and still dim enough that I didn't see it .

[6pt-sika]

My present brush gun !



This thing started life in 1966 as a standard Marlin 444 . I got it maybe 4 years ago and have used it to kill 3 deer . Since I own a couple others that were identical to it and at the time this one could use a reblue I decided to have the barrel chopped to 18 3/4" , reblued all the metal and refinished the stock !

It's setup at the moment shooting the LBT 433-340GC bullet and a nice old Weaver K3 on top !

Now for my present buckshot gun !





My multi purpose W.C. Scott 10 gauge 2 7/8" chamber damascus barreled buckshot and birdshot gun !
I make my own buckshot handloads for this one with a dozen 00 Buck pellets in each shell ! This one will keep both barrels fired from a rest at 25 yards inside and 18 inch circle !

I "had" an older Remington 1100 12 gauge 2 3/4" Brushmaster with the old style rifled sights !
This one with the plain old Winchester 12 gauge 2 3/4" 1 ounce HP slugs would keep 5 shots from the bench inside a 1 3/4" group at 50 yards !
It did pretty darned well with Winchester 2 3/4" 00 Buck as well out to about 40 yards !

[madman4570]

Just went out back and setup a target on a tall cardboard box (just used a 6" black bull on sheet of printer paper) and placed the box behind a very thick bush(various stems up to size diameter of little finger.(just barely could make out a bull)
The test gun was a 12ga 1972 20" Ithaca Deerslayer Deluxe(smoothbore buck barrel) (inside muzzle diameter of .706)roughly the diameter of Modified/Imp Modified

Slugs were the Brenneke Green Lightnings.(mind you the barrel is tapered smooth (no twist)

Shot 5 rds and all 5 stayed inside the bull I am speechless(I would say,that's a true brush gun)

Do you think the barrel being a smoothbore was an important factor in it's performance through vegetation? Would a rifled slug barrel tend to deflect the slug more readily due to the spin if making contact with vegetation? I have a Winchester model 1300 XLT Featherweight 12 gauge with identical length barrels one rifled, and one smoothbore. Which would be better bear defense shooting identical 3" Brenneke 1-3/8 oz. slugs (1500 FPS)? Is the slug load you're using a more important factor in your results than the barrel? I wish I still lived on Maui where the woods are 10 minutes away to perform a test. My county shooting range is 45 minutes away, and they would never let me perform a test like this anyways.
Honestly, I would always prefer to be shooting at what I can clearly see, and I would say especially at something charging in intent on killing me.

You raise some darn good questions!
Honestly, with the smoothbore/rifled barrel (I am not sure?)------------earlmck(help?)
I do think the slug was more important than the barrel.

Also I really would have loved trying some various Lightfield loads.(really wonder how they go thru thick dense brush?)
Those look like real bear killers too.
Man, I hear ya about seeing a charging bear shooting only with an open path ,but walking down the miles of log roads this time of year unless its on the maintained log roads its anyones guess.Bad enough during hunting season.
I will say (think I mentioned it here on some post?) Couple years back at almost dusk while walking back home on a log road coming across this big gorge, crossing the stream coming up the other side, WHAM (in like a nano-second)this good sized bear leaps off this big hemlock branch about 10-12ft up. In a blink of an eye(litterly)that bear sprinted up that mountain like nothing I have ever seen and fast as any deer could have. (now,I have hunted a lot of bear and killed my share,but?) right then and there I thought their potential of that type quickness across that type rugged land is absolutely astonishing. I had my Deerslayer in my right hand(I'm right handed)and a very small camo ground cushion (which work awesome when sitting on ground)in my left hand,remember now its almost dark and I am heading home.By the time I let go of that cushion and it hit the ground it " honestly seemed" like that bear hit the ground and flew up the mountain.IF it decided to charge me(there was no way on God's green earth I would have been able to shoot it before being on me)
So, from now on I never ever carry anything in my left hand and carry the gun always with the thought ya never know?)
Probably what will kill me is some day in my yard(unarmed)while doing yard work a big boar will decide I look tasty????????
Oh well told the wife to cremate me,rent a plane and spread me all over the mountain during a heavy rain

ps----toady about 1.5 hrs ago while having coffee with the wife on the deck, across one of our gorges by the house in the thick trees (about 75yards away)a bear was beating up on some trees,and yes I had the Ithaca beside me.

[Old Savage]

One thing about the Ithaca. While dove hunting and being surprised by an upcoming dove along a tree line I racked I racked a fired shell out of the chamber with the gun at my waist. The ejecting shell pivoted into the primer of the next shell in the tube and set it off. Fortunately that was the only one left and other than some powder blast on my hand I was OK. This shotgun has thousands of rds through it normally but apparently the ejection with the gun coming sharply back changed the mechanics.

[madman4570]

OS,
Are you sure you didnt have your finger possibly on the trigger while racking it?
Reason I say this is my Ithaca will slam fire(hold your finger on the trigger and as fast as you pump it it fires.
You would think by sound its a semi-auto.
My brother back about 10 years ago brought his Marlin 336C (.35Rem)up and said he thinks it is faster than my Ithaca
I put 5 in mine and in about 2 seconds shot 5 rds into "Nigel" (he is a home made 1/2" plate steel silhouette.
He said--------Guess not?
Otherwise OS, I will keep an eye out. Thanks.

[Old Savage]

Last shell in the magazine tube fired in the tube. Much different you can see on the primer the strike of the rim on her center of the primer. Went off on racking the slide back. Never got it forward. This place the back of my hand just forward of the ejection port which is where the powder burn on the knife edge of my hand came from.

Seems to me if you were carrying the gun at waist high and were surprised by a bear the same could happen if you carry with an empty chamber as some do or tried to fire as second shot from the waist.

[madman4570]

Will be aware and keep that in mind OS
Thanks!

[earlmck]

Do you think the barrel being a smoothbore was an important factor in it's performance through vegetation? Would a rifled slug barrel tend to deflect the slug more readily due to the spin if making contact with vegetation? I have a Winchester model 1300 XLT Featherweight 12 gauge with identical length barrels one rifled, and one smoothbore. Which would be better bear defense shooting identical 3" Brenneke 1-3/8 oz. slugs (1500 FPS)? Is the slug load you're using a more important factor in your results than the barrel? I wish I still lived on Maui where the woods are 10 minutes away to perform a test. My county shooting range is 45 minutes away, and they would never let me perform a test like this anyways.

Ji, you have good questions there. our frend Madman4570 did the tests that showed just how superior the Brenneke slug from a smoothbore is to any normal rifle bullet. I'm thinking it may be your patriotic duty to take your Winchester over to Maui so you can do the needed testing. Just so we really know what would be best to pack along on a walk in the thick stuff in bear country .

Right now I'm guessing there wouldn't be any major difference, but Madman's testing already showed me how little my "guesses" are worth...

[BAGTIC]

The test I remember best was in Guns and Ammo, I think, about 35 years ago. The author crafted a box with half inch dowels spaced so that at least two would always be hit. Factory .45-70 was lousy ... the winner was the .222.
My personal belief is that unless there is some type of emergency the animal deserves the respect of me taking a shot that would produce the quickest kill possible. Shooting through a bunch of sticks, leaves or what have you does not qualify. I can say that having to let a nice eight point go because of brush is tough to swallow but it feels good in the soul.
I agree with Terry.

I remember that test and as I recall the 'winner' was the round ball. It doesn't take much to cause any bullet to tip, yaw, or tumble but the symmetrical round ball with its 1:1 length/diamter ratio is very resistant.

I remember in the test it appared when looking down on the array of dowels from above it often appeared that the bullet would first veer to one sibe and then back to the other side. Its path looked like a snake. Now the bullet actually was not moving side to side. It was tumbling, rotating around its center of mass. As one arm, nose end vs base end, was longer than the other its track would cut a wider swath on the side where it was pointing at any moment. The track of the center of mass itself was actually a straight line. It was like throwing a claw hammer. If one focuses on the handle it appears to be deviating up and the down but actually the ends are merely rotating around the center of mass which traces a smooth arc.

[BAGTIC]

From what I testing I can recall, the smaller, heavy for caliber (meaning long) ones works the best for "brush bucking" (which doesn't really happen. Heavy 6.5's working the best IIRC.

I disagree. The bullet with the greatest stability factor will be the most stable regardless of shape.

[Ji in Hawaii]

I remember that test and as I recall the 'winner' was the round ball. It doesn't take much to cause any bullet to tip, yaw, or tumble but the symmetrical round ball with its 1:1 length/diamter ratio is very resistant.

I've read where some guys like to load .690 round lead balls which fit standard 12 gauge plastic wads perfectly, and topping off with Cream of Wheat to get a good star crimp. Lee make a .690 mold, and when cast from wheel weights or linotype the penetration can be amazing, great up close and personal bear medicine from what's being said. I wonder how the accuracy would be beyond 25 yards.

[tman]

Maybe i'll try some 12 gauge Brenneke slugs in my Chicom rippoff 1887 lever.