New Winchester Model 94 Rifles

[Streetstar]

And I ain't payin $1500 for a production gun from anyone...does that make me cheep?
Terry

Yep. You would be depriving yourself of a lot of nice guns. (but most people can admittedly still easilly get what they need for well under that amount if they need to )

[buckeyeshooter]

I own 5 Miroku manufactured winchesters. while not crazy about the tang safety or rebound hammer, they are better made than the 4 olin winchesters I own and as good as the 94 manufactured in 1963 I own.

[J Miller]

<snip>

Ain't no hissy-fit, but I refuse to spend my dollars on an article I don't want; nor feel any compunction to refrain from expressing an apparently minority opinion. I'll reserve my gratitude when they offer what I want to buy; and believe me, I'll be loquacious in my praise.

What Griff said above is really blunt and to the point. But why is it that when Griff says it, it's accepted, but when I say the same thing albeit in different words I'm put down, flamed or ignored?

Griff, we do not agree that these Miroku guns are Winchesters, but we do agree on the above.

Joe

[SJPrice]

<snip>

Ain't no hissy-fit, but I refuse to spend my dollars on an article I don't want; nor feel any compunction to refrain from expressing an apparently minority opinion. I'll reserve my gratitude when they offer what I want to buy; and believe me, I'll be loquacious in my praise.

What Griff said above is really blunt and to the point. But why is it that when Griff says it, it's accepted, but when I say the same thing albeit in different words I'm put down, flamed or ignored?

Griff, we do not agree that these Miroku guns are Winchesters, but we do agree on the above.

Joe

Griff's comments simply state that there are no new offerings that compel him to spend his money or sing the manufacturers praises. He stops short of insinuating that those who do find appeal, spend their hard earned dollars or want to talk about their experience in shooting and or owning a new Browning or Winchester should not even call them by those names as has been put forth by a number of replies in this thread. And Joe, not only by you, however you asked the question.

[J Miller]

<snip>

Ain't no hissy-fit, but I refuse to spend my dollars on an article I don't want; nor feel any compunction to refrain from expressing an apparently minority opinion. I'll reserve my gratitude when they offer what I want to buy; and believe me, I'll be loquacious in my praise.

What Griff said above is really blunt and to the point. But why is it that when Griff says it, it's accepted, but when I say the same thing albeit in different words I'm put down, flamed or ignored?

Griff, we do not agree that these Miroku guns are Winchesters, but we do agree on the above.

Joe

Griff's comments simply state that there are no new offerings that compel him to spend his money or sing the manufacturers praises. He stops short of insinuating that those who do find appeal, spend their hard earned dollars or want to talk about their experience in shooting and or owning a new Browning or Winchester should not even call them by those names as has been put forth by a number of replies in this thread. And Joe, not only by you, however you asked the question.

SJ,
Part of your response I understand, but part of it all I can say is ... huh?

I love to hear about peoples use of guns. Any guns. But these bloody Miroku made copies are no more Winchesters than the Rossis or Ubertis are. They can stamp what ever they want on them, but that don't make it so.

Joe

[DPris]

Joe,
You're a cranky old curmudgeon & Griff isn't.
In a nutshell (from another cranky old curmudgeon).
Denis

[J Miller]

Joe,
You're a cranky old curmudgeon & Griff isn't.
In a nutshell (from another cranky old curmudgeon).
Denis

Denis,
You mean ..... I actually made to the curmudgeon stage WOW!

Oh HOBIE, I need a new or additional rank. How about Curmudgeon Emeritus???

Joe

[DPris]

Curmudgeon Primaritus?
Denis

[Bogie35]

I love a good dust-up, but especially when I deeply respect all involved. Take a little Joe and a little Don, then throw in a dash of Griff??? This is like watching a Hall of Fame shoot-out!!! All we need now is for Terry to jump in!

And after it's all over...
With bloody lips and skint knuckles...
They belly-up to the bar, order a bottle, and laugh about it all.

bogie

[tman]

Winchesters haven't been made by winchester, since the 1920's when Western Cartridge Company bought Winchester out. I'd love to see them made in the USA, but the politicians in the 1980's sold American manufactoring out to foreign countries, with tax incentives paving the way. If you want to be a true hardliner, Buy one made before 1925. I don't need to buy one, but, if i did , i'm glad somebody's still making a copy

[Don McDowell]

Boge Griff and I aren't really very far apart. I would much prefer they were making pre USRAC type rifles, only with the fit and quality the Miroku plant is known for. Made on shore would be good, but with the cost of doing business inside the US borders, probably not going to happen, so no point in whinin about it.
So with all that out of the way, the first chance I get to get ahold of one of these new issue 38-55's it'll be mine, and if they bring out a 25-35 me , the banker and the operatin note, will probably be grounded for life
^(is a gunnut also and has a bit of understanding about the importance of new predator control devices)

[olyinaz]

Boge Griff and I aren't really very far apart. I would much prefer they were making pre USRAC type rifles, only with the fit and quality the Miroku plant is known for. Made on shore would be good, but with the cost of doing business inside the US borders, probably not going to happen, so no point in whinin about it.

Sorry, but I aint buying whatever excuses are offered when the list price is this high. Henry, Marlin and Mossberg all manage to get it done in the U.S. at much lower price points so, as they say - that dog don't hunt.

So buy 'em if you want 'em - I'll even say nice things if you post a picture because I'm polite. But please don't take part in furthering the falsehood that they can't build 'em here for these kind of prices.

Oly

[DPris]

Henry, Marlin, and Mossberg all manage to get leverguns done at lower prices, yes. But- also at lower quality levels. Particularly in the case of the Mossberg, a substantial difference in quality.

Henry & Mossberg use alternative construction methods & materials, and Marlin has been doing their leverguns for many decades, which has meant no new ground-up capital investment in setting up a new plant with all that involves.
Marlins will now be made on new machinery that'll replace worn & outdated equipment at the old factory, so there'll be some new startup costs involved there that may result in higher prices in the near future. Cerberus may absorb some of that, and they may easily also turn to alternative construction materials (MIM vs the older traditional forged).
Winchester-branded 94s would have required all new tooling, fixtures & equipment to be set up in a US factory, and it was determined by the people making the decisions that it'd actually be cheaper to do the 94 at Miroku.

Denis

[Griff]

I try to be nice... but I can't forever. Thank you SJ, DPris and no, even Joe and Don and I aren't really that different. We know what we like, know what we'll accept and can live with the fact that others may or may not understand that... And, may not understand why, as it's off into that lalalala land of the id and ego and some such nonsense... ask OS!!!

I have a Browning 1886 from 1985 (1st year I believe) that's made by Miroku and is a slick as snot on top a Louisiana swamp. I'd put it up against any original 1886 Winchester for fit, finish (except for that slick plasticized wood filler they call a finish) and accuracy! But, it'll NEVER be a Winchester. It sez BROWNING, Ogden, UT on the barrel and just model 1886 on the tang. IT ain't a Winchester. Even if it might be a closer copy to the original than the current offerings and built by the same plant. However, and this is my differentiator, AT THE TIME, FN/Browing/Miroku did not possess the rights to use the Winchester name on any guns they produced... That right had been bought and paid for by the USRA Corporation... in fact although I looked it up once, I don't recall exactly when Miroku and Browning were bought by FN, but if I recall it was before they started building copies of JM Browning's designs. After FN bought USRA, which IIRC was in '91 it became another matter entirely.

That said... like I started to post once before, the reason... the SOLE reason I'll say that the current production ARE Winchesters is due to the contractual obligations the name's owner (Olin Corporation) receives as part of the license agreement from FN for the use thereof. It is strictly a legal artifice. But it is Legal. Just like Henry Repeating Arms using the name Henry... since no one "owned" the name when they started this venture, they were free to usurp it's use. (I chose my words carefully there... don't wanna get sued ya know!) Purchasing the right to put the name Winchester on their guns is both legal and ethical. Usurping a known, but unclaimed name to further a marketing strategy isn't. But, that's just my opinion, and they should be glad I ain't a judge... I certainly entertain a class-action suit brought before me on just such an arbritary and capricious notion. (There, since it's my notion, I can call it anything I want...)

Boge, you're right... I love to sit and talk with Joe... and would love the opportunity to do so with Don... Hopefully I'd learn a bunch about loadin' BP in my Sharps. Or at least that magic shortcut so I don't have to do the paper-patch or sprinkle glitter in my powder so that it comes out red, white, & blue in consequtive shots!!!! Or some other esoteric, voodoo incantations as I load... And Barley pop is always welcome! Sometimes I even buy!!!

Olyinaz, price isn't always just what one pays... FN has taken an American icon of the "semi-old" west and turned it into a must have piece for the affluent yahoo that believes a part of America is lost, likely to not be seen again. That isn't to say that for a "rifleman" this piece of American heritage as currently produced isn't a fine arm in its own right. I'm saying that for a certain category of buyer they're selling an image, not a gun. And image costs more than mere guns. I'd pay $500 more SMRP (which ain't quite that amount at actual retail outlets), if they'd been truer to the actual gun from which they glomed this image thing.

Yes, Marlin and Henry are building guns in America. However, if you look closely, you'll see that they're trying awful HARD to make sure that's the image they're selling. Henry is being successful because they're able to back up any product defect thru great customer service. Marlin is struggling with maintaining barely minimimal quality to hang onto their niche market. If they'd been doing well, Remington would've never been able to buy 'em out. Marlin needed an influx of capital if they were going to keep the doors open... Remington came in and salvaged what I believe was a failing company. Whether they're going to be able to turn it around is another question.

American business today ain't what it was 75 years ago. Today the business model seems to be to maximize profit and return on investment in the form of stock options and stock bonuses to the shareholders and executives. If reducing the number of QC inspections from 5 to 1 is a way to do so... what're we waiting for? If cutting the most experienced man from the production line due to an injury and we can do so without paying for long term disability, hire a unskilled laborer to learn to run the stock replicator and so what if a few thousand, turn out a few thousandths of an inch too wide at the tang... the buyers are buying because we make it here in AMERICA! It ain't like QC is gonna be able to catch 'em all!

Cynical? Yep, that's me. If Marlin had upped it's price to $800 for an 1894 and been able to produce a quality product that showed PRIDE in craftmanship instead of continuing to cut costs so they could keep the price at $439 and beat Winchester outta another sale... maybe BOTH companies would still be on their own. Cutting costs to maintain a lower price means that you're taking the risk that your product will slide in its quality. EXACTLY what happened to Winchester, then USRA and is happening to Marlin right now. How much longer will buyers put up with sloppy manufacturing just to have an "American" product. Take a look at Shiloh Sharps, could they build their 1874 Sharps cheaper... undoubtedly, YES. But... to do so, they may have to push some units out the door with slight defects in the materials, fit and finish. Would that hurt their market. You betcha! Buyers are a fickle bunch. I don't hear complaints about their product. They are universally praised for their high quality and workmanship. It's called PRIDE. Winchester lost theirs long ago.

Two of Winchesters best products from days gone by have an entirely different history than their model 94 carbine/rifle. The model 21 and 101. Maybe DPris can confirm this... but have I heard any complaints about those two guns? Nope, know why? Well, if my information is right, the Model 21 was produced by piece workers who were given the parts and assembled each gun outside of the Winchester factory. They were paid based on the number of units they produced that passed Winchester's strict quality control for that gun. And the 101? ISTR reading that it was actually built in Belgium, guess who by? And was for YEARS! I hear no hue and cry about it NOT being a Winchester. Wage slaves, sitting at a bench with an overseer second guessing every part an assembly worker sets aside as inferior, soon learn that the overseer will tell 'em put that one in... it ain't "out of spec" even if tolerance build up suffers greatly. Beaten daily about the need to use 'em all, can't waste money on stone-cold losers, the Winchester 94 @ $249 @ Wal-Mart was just that... a stone-cold loser. Still produced as it's machinery had long ago been fully amortized and it was carried and sold at the rock bottom of the cost to produce it. Maybe only produced due to the image that still producing it provided the corporation. Sorta like a little loss here, but with lots of goodwill, equates to huge profits over here!

There's a very subtle shift in thinking when one works for oneself as in those producing the Model 21 Winchesters vs. the guy who sits at a bench assembling rattly ol' Winchester 94s by the dozen a day! That guy at the factory soon learns, cause it filters down readily enough, that the President ain't interested in either the product or the worker... but is far more interested in is stock option plan, whether his golden parachute is large enough... and those cost money. Money that ONLY comes thru the sale of inventory... the cutting of costs in either (or both), materials and labor and continued investment.

Many huge corporations (US and other), are far more concerned about their stock portfolios and what their investors think of them than their customers think of the products and services they provide. That lack of concern and interest is readily apparent... is it any wonder that quality slips and slides all over the place?

Okay... rant mode off... I sorry I bored everyone to sleep.

[SJPrice]

Thanks Griff,

Now I am fired up for the day. And all kidding aside, I could not have said it better.

Steve

[DPris]

I'd find it hard to dispute any of that....
Denis

[J Miller]

Griff,

How high will the prices rise before the common man can no longer afford these "nitch" guns? At what point are these already "nitch" guns going to be priced so high the nitch they are directed at cannot afford them?

For me, the price level has always been at around the $500.00 mark. Over that and I'm shopping for a used example, forget the new one. This was even true years ago when I was still working full time + over time and not married yet. Some of us just aren't rolling in money.

It doesn't matter to me what it looks like to the share holders, or the stock marked, or the filthy rich President /CEO of the company. Once the price goes too high, I quit buying, people quit buying.

Colt has always priced their SAA out of my reach. Every time I got a wage increase that gave me some hope I might be able to reach my Holy Grail, the ***'s raised the price again. Same with all these Japchesters. At the current prices, they are out of my reach ... even "IF" I was interested in buying.
Same with the Shiloh Sharps or the Uberti made 1873s / 1976s etc. No matter how good they are, they are priced out of my reach.

That to me is the bottom line. I don't care how good a product is, if I can't afford it, the quality is of no benefit to me.

Nother words I'll buy a $300 or $400 dollar used New Haven built Mdl 94 even if it's considered inferior to the Miroku made ones because I CAN AFFORD IT.

Oh well, I think I've said all I can say. My concerns always seem to fall on deaf ears. Since many of you guys have such large quantities of spendable income you can buy what ever you want, you forget most of us can't.

Joe

[DPris]

Another factor in the entire equation is that the company doesn't want to sell 94s in high volume.
Miroku has limited room for the 94 & they actually don't want a high demand.
Denis

[tman]

I'd rather have a $400 used,but not abused Model 94 .32 special than one of the $ 1500 brandy new ones, if someone made me choose between them. While i'm happy to hear that 94's are being made again, I'm glad i have what i have.

[TMair]

Griff,

How high will the prices rise before the common man can no longer afford these "nitch" guns? At what point are these already "nitch" guns going to be priced so high the nitch they are directed at cannot afford them?

For me, the price level has always been at around the $500.00 mark. Over that and I'm shopping for a used example, forget the new one. This was even true years ago when I was still working full time + over time and not married yet. Some of us just aren't rolling in money.

It doesn't matter to me what it looks like to the share holders, or the stock marked, or the filthy rich President /CEO of the company. Once the price goes too high, I quit buying, people quit buying.

Colt has always priced their SAA out of my reach. Every time I got a wage increase that gave me some hope I might be able to reach my Holy Grail, the ***'s raised the price again. Same with all these Japchesters. At the current prices, they are out of my reach ... even "IF" I was interested in buying.
Same with the Shiloh Sharps or the Uberti made 1873s / 1976s etc. No matter how good they are, they are priced out of my reach.

That to me is the bottom line. I don't care how good a product is, if I can't afford it, the quality is of no benefit to me.

Nother words I'll buy a $300 or $400 dollar used New Haven built Mdl 94 even if it's considered inferior to the Miroku made ones because I CAN AFFORD IT.

Oh well, I think I've said all I can say. My concerns always seem to fall on deaf ears. Since many of you guys have such large quantities of spendable income you can buy what ever you want, you forget most of us can't.

Joe

I do have to agree with this, I know I can't afford $1500 for a new gun, my spending limit is a little hyer then Joe's but not much, then again I don't buy a lot of guns, I picked up two this last year, but these are the first guns I have bought in 10+ years.

But I don't dispise those who can afford to buy these guns.
Terry