Need info ref: gun sales across state lines

[J Miller]

OK, here's the story. rjohns has a rifle he's going to send me. I call the FFL I've used twice before. He's accepted a transfer from a private party, and an FFL in the past. Now he tells me he can't do it from a private party because it's illegal.

Called another gun shop and the second line on their phone recording was "We do not accept transfers from non FFLs"

Called a third FFL and he said as far as he knows there is no law against a private party sending a gun to an FFL in another state for a transfer. But he's going to research it and get back to me.

OK, I'm horrible at searches and I know there's a couple guys here with FFLs. Can somebody give me the link to the BATF site where it tells what is legal and what is not considering transfers?
I want to have it available to show the first FFL. Hopefully he can be convinced. If not then he's just being contrary.

As far as FFLs there really isn't that many in central IL. At least that I know of.

TIA

Joe

[TedH]

As far as I know, the ones around here that won't accept from an individual, do so just to cover their own rear ends. I don't think there is any law against it here. Of course in IL, it wouldn't surprise me if there were.

[Chas.]

Although I found this on Gunbroker, the references are to sections of ATF Federal Firearms Regulations Reference Guide.

"Here is exactly what the ATF 'Federal Firearms Regulations Reference Guide' (ATF P 5300.4) says:
(B9) May a nonlicensee ship a firearm by carrier?
A nonlicensee may ship a firearm by carrier to a resident of his or her own state or to a licensee in any state. A common or contract carrier must be used to ship a handgun. In addition, Federal law requires that the carrier be notified that the shipment contains a firearm and prohibits common or contract carriers from requiring or causing any label to be placed on any package indicating that it contains a firearm. [18 U. S. C. 922( a)( 2)( A) and 922( e), 27 CFR 178.31]"

[Mich Hunter]

It is very legal for an FFL to accept from a non. I will not deal with one that won't. I would inform them that it is not illegal and you will no longer do buisness with them. I have delt with a few like that and they have interjected their own opinion into law.


Some info from the BATFE:

B7) May a nonlicensee ship a firearm through the U.S. Postal Service?

A nonlicensee may not transfer a firearm to a non-licensed resident of another State. A nonlicensee may mail a shotgun or rifle to a resident of his or her own State or to a licensee in any State. The Postal Service recommends that long guns be sent by registered mail and that no marking of any kind which would indicate the nature of the contents be placed on the outside of any parcel containing firearms. Handguns are not mailable. A common or contract carrier must be used to ship a handgun.

[18 U.S.C. 1715, 922(a)(3), 922(a)(5) and 922 (a)(2)(A)]

(B8) May a nonlicensee ship a firearm by common or contract carrier?

A nonlicensee may ship a firearm by a common or contract carrier to a resident of his or her own State or to a licensee in any State. A common or contract carrier must be used to ship a handgun. In addition, Federal law requires that the carrier be notified that the shipment contains a firearm and prohibits common or contract carriers from requiring or causing any label to be placed on any package indicating that it contains a firearm.

[18 U.S.C. 922(a)(2)(A), 922(a) (3), 922(a)(5) and 922(e), 27 CFR 478.31 and 478.30]

(B9) May a nonlicensee ship firearms interstate for his or her use in hunting or other lawful activity?

Yes. A person may ship a firearm to himself or herself in care of another person in the State where he or she intends to hunt or engage in any other lawful activity. The package should be addressed to the owner. Persons other than the owner should not open the package and take possession of the firearm.
__________________

[.45colt]

Yep, it's Legal. In the past two years I have bought a rifle and handgun both from out of state from non FFl. My FFl didn't even blink just said it is legal and everything went very smooth.

[Don McDowell]

Might be something in the Illinois firearms law....

[Ben_Rumson]

I just went thru the same drill you're getting put thru Joe a few weeks ago.. A convenient FFL I wanted to use near home here in CA didn't want to accept transfer from a private party up in OR... If the seller had to do an FFL to FFL transfer it was gonna cost me an extra $25... It was CYA on my FFL dealer’s part... Eventually he got clued in a private party transfer to an FFL is legal..

[J Miller]

What I need is an actual url to the part of the BATF that says Mr X in another state can sell me his gun and then ship it to an FFL here without using an FFL on his end.

I know about the shipping and using carriers, that's not what I need. I know I can ship it to myself.
What I need is specific to the purchase of the rifle from an out of state person and his being able to ship it directly to my FFL.

I'm sure it's legal too, but without documentation my word is for naught.

Joe

[Bridger]

http://www.atf.gov/publications/downloa ... 5300-4.pdf

I am quite sure it is in here somewhere, I just don't have the time to find it. It is from 2005 of course but still it is a good place to start.

[Ysabel Kid]

Hi Joe -

I suspect you nailed it with your guess it was the FFL's just in CYA mode. I have purchased firearms from rjohns94 before, and he shipped them directly to my FFL without first going through his FFL.

[Nate Kiowa Jones]

Might be something in the Illinois firearms law....

Joe,
I know the ATF rules allows a non-licensee to send a gun to an FFL dealer in another state. That is federal rules and can be found here;
ATF's FAQ's; To whom may an unlicensed person transfer firearms under the GCA?

But, as Don mentioned some states may not allow it. IIRC New york is one that does not allow a non licensee to send a gun out of NY. It must be sent from an NY FFL. It would not surprise me if IL was the same.

[kuda]

Good info, thanks.

[SFRanger7GP]

Check your state laws. It may not be the dealer's fault. Also, it is not so much a CYA as a practicality i some cases. Processing the firearm from an individual through his local FFL holder to be sent to another FFL can avoid a lot of problems.
In Florida, if the dealer has a pawn license, accepting a firearm from a non FFL is a pain in the butt.

[SteveR]

Joe,

A non-FFL holder can ship to a FFL, BUT, it is the receiving FFL that the BATF will go after. And for the transfer fee, its not worth the hassel of logging in a drivers license as legal proof. Mainly because the FFL cannot verifiy if the DL is real or fake. With a signed FFL and a call to the BATF the dealer can verify the transfer.

Long story short, most FFL's will not chance losing their business over a transfer. Pay a little extra and have it shipped from a FFL to your FFL.

Steve

[J Miller]

http://www.atf.gov/publications/downloa ... 5300-4.pdf

I am quite sure it is in here somewhere, I just don't have the time to find it. It is from 2005 of course but still it is a good place to start.

Bridger,
Thanks for the link but my slow dial up just gave up on it.

Might be something in the Illinois firearms law....

Joe,
I know the ATF rules allows a non-licensee to send a gun to an FFL dealer in another state. That is federal rules and can be found here;
ATF's FAQ's; To whom may an unlicensed person transfer firearms under the GCA?

But, as Don mentioned some states may not allow it. IIRC New york is one that does not allow a non licensee to send a gun out of NY. It must be sent from an NY FFL. It would not surprise me if IL was the same.

Nate,
Thanks for the link. Read it and I'm still confused by a couple lines there. For my purpose though I did not see anything prohibiting what we're talking about.

I've got one dealer doing some research, so I'll hopefully have a dealer that will accept the transfer today. If not then I'm about to give up on this whole thing.

Joe

[J Miller]

Wow, I think I just reached the end of my patience.

I tried to check back with the FFL that's doing the research. No body home, left a voice message. Of course nobody ever checks their messages so I don't expect to hear from him again.

Called another very well known dealer in this area and he said the sender has to send the rifle through an FFL on his end.
His other suggestion was to take it apart and mail it as parts. He said they rarely ever check the stuff, they probably wouldn't find it. SAY WHAT???? I scuttled that idea before the words had time to echo through the phone.

I'm seeing a trend here. IL dealers are paranoid and in CYA mode. I do know the IL state fuz monitors all the gun shows to make sure they do background checks on any gun sales so I'll be their might be a state law in effect here. Don't know.

Bullshiq meter is almost pegged.

Joe

[Don McDowell]

I'm seeing a trend here. IL dealers are paranoid and in CYA mode. I do know the IL state fuz monitors all the gun shows to make sure they do background checks on any gun sales so I'll be their might be a state law in effect here. Don't know.

Bullshiq meter is almost pegged.

Joe

Joe that's almost an offensive statement. Do you have any idea of the stuff an FFL get get dumped on their head for something that may or may not be done right and may or may not be their fault.

You want an easy solution to this get off your butt call the regional ATFE office and have them ship you the forms to fill out to become an FFL, then we'll see about who's got paranoia and CYA

[J Miller]

I'm seeing a trend here. IL dealers are paranoid and in CYA mode. I do know the IL state fuz monitors all the gun shows to make sure they do background checks on any gun sales so I'll be their might be a state law in effect here. Don't know.

Bullshiq meter is almost pegged.

Joe

Joe that's almost an offensive statement. Do you have any idea of the stuff an FFL get get dumped on their head for something that may or may not be done right and may or may not be their fault.

You want an easy solution to this get off your butt call the regional ATFE office and have them ship you the forms to fill out to become an FFL, then we'll see about who's got paranoia and CYA

Don,
Thanks old buddy I really needed dumped on this morning. I feel better now.
And the bullshiq meter is totally pegged.

Joe

[geobru]

J,
Take a couple of deep breaths and relax! This too shall pass, and in the long term, isn't going to have a huge impact on your life!

I did a Google search for Illinois gun laws and found out that you have to have a FOID card to transfer guns.

This link takes you to an NRA synopsis of the IL gun laws as of November 2009. Hope it is helpful.

http://crime.about.com/gi/o.htm?zi=1/XJ ... s/ILSL.pdf

[J Miller]

J,
Take a couple of deep breaths and relax! This too shall pass, and in the long term, isn't going to have a huge impact on your life!

I did a Google search for Illinois gun laws and found out that you have to have a FOID card to transfer guns.

This link takes you to an NRA synopsis of the IL gun laws as of November 2009. Hope it is helpful.

http://crime.about.com/gi/o.htm?zi=1/XJ ... s/ILSL.pdf

Yeah, I'm all set for the FOID card. Had one for 11 years now. Not only do you have to have one to buy or possess a gun, you have to have one to so much as possess a single round of ammunition. Most gun shops won't even show you gun if you do not have the FOID card. This however has nothing to do with the Feds. It's just one the communist things IL does.

This will get resolved, although I'm sure it will end up costing more just keep the paranoid IL FFLs all touchie feelie happy.

Joe

[SteveR]

[
This will get resolved, although I'm sure it will end up costing more just keep the paranoid IL FFLs all touchie feelie happy.Joe

I bet if you had a business that was over regulated and had to answer to the Government bureaucrats, you would change your view in a hurry.

Steve

[J Miller]

[
This will get resolved, although I'm sure it will end up costing more just keep the paranoid IL FFLs all touchie feelie happy.Joe

I bet if you had a business that was over regulated and had to answer to the Government bureaucrats, you would change your view in a hurry.

Steve

So, now you're dumping on me too, huh. Well, thanks old buddy, I really feel twice as better now.


I'm gonna call a spade where I see it. If it's against the law then that's one thing, but in this case it is not. And since it is not, these dealers are just being paranoid. And paranoia isn't a good frame of mind to be in. Even if the ATF is out to get them.
Dump on me all you want, but I don't buy it. I may end up paying for their paranoia to get that rifle, but not by choice.

Joe

[Idahoser]

seems to me with the new head of the BATF it's only going to get worse, and we've already heard horror stories. Yes, it is legal and yes, they are covering their a$$es, but I'm not going to begrudge them that! Some of their contemporaries are in prison right now for doing nothing illegal. I'm glad there's anybody with the guts to be a FFL these days.

[SteveR]

[
This will get resolved, although I'm sure it will end up costing more just keep the paranoid IL FFLs all touchie feelie happy.Joe

I bet if you had a business that was over regulated and had to answer to the Government bureaucrats, you would change your view in a hurry.

Steve

So, now you're dumping on me too, huh. Well, thanks old buddy, I really feel twice as better now.


I'm gonna call a spade where I see it. If it's against the law then that's one thing, but in this case it is not. And since it is not, these dealers are just being paranoid. And paranoia isn't a good frame of mind to be in. Even if the ATF is out to get them.
Dump on me all you want, but I don't buy it. I may end up paying for their paranoia to get that rifle, but not by choice.

Joe

Joe,
Not dumping on you, just saying what is happening is just that the dealers are just coving their bases. I know it may seem that they are overboard, but look at it this way. Say you are a dealer and a guy says he would like to have a transfer done, then you as the dealer do the transfer from a non-FFL. Then the gun comes up stolen and you have a Drivers License from the seller, but its is fake. I think you would know the rest. But, by having a dealer to dealer transfer, the first dealer bares the brunt of the investigation. Which also has its benefits to you, because the dealers are the ones shipping and usually know who to ship with and get a better price on shipping.
Steve
PS Enjoy the gun!! It looks to be a beauty!!

[J Miller]

Waited for the holidays to be over and went to the FFL I've done business with twice before.
First time: private sale of handgun shipped straight to my FFL. Everything worked fine, zero problems.

Second time: private sale of rifle shipped through sellers FFL to my FFL. Zero problems.

In both cases my FFL gave me a copy of his license to mail to the seller with the payment.

Today I went there and the store owner was not present. He's undergoing treatment for lung cancer. His wife was there and at first was going to give me the copy of their FFL to send to rjohn. Then in the second breath she said she needed to fax it to his dealer. Did I have a fax number? No I don't. OK I can't do it then. I controlled myself and told her, I quit, no more, thanks for your time and walked out.
Enough of this bullshiq! At this point I'm so dam mad at that dealer I'm about ready to give up. She flip flopped twice in as many breaths.

When I got home I fired off a call to one other FFL I've been talking to and if I don't hear from him with positive information, then it's over with.
This is totally absurd and I'm beginning to wonder if it's worth the effort at all.

Joe

[Hobie]

Joe,

Calm down buddy. The lady doesn't know what to do. She'll process it for you. Get the other FFL's fax number (it can be faxed but doesn't have to be) and let her fax it. This, so far, is no different than for me.

[JB]

I'm seeing a trend here. IL dealers are paranoid and in CYA mode. I do know the IL state fuz monitors all the gun shows to make sure they do background checks on any gun sales so I'll be their might be a state law in effect here. Don't know.

Bullshiq meter is almost pegged.

Joe

Joe that's almost an offensive statement. Do you have any idea of the stuff an FFL get get dumped on their head for something that may or may not be done right and may or may not be their fault.

You want an easy solution to this get off your butt call the regional ATFE office and have them ship you the forms to fill out to become an FFL, then we'll see about who's got paranoia and CYA

Don,
Thanks old buddy I really needed dumped on this morning. I feel better now.
And the bullshiq meter is totally pegged.

Joe

I'm with you on this one Joe. I've had to do business with several idiot FFL holders that either are too stupid to know the laws or at least look them up. You don't have to pass any test, IQ or otherwise to get an FFL, just pay your fee.

[J Miller]

I'll not be going back there again. "Fool me once same on you. Fool me twice, shame on me." They've had their chance.
I've got a call into another FFL and hopefully he'll call me back. If for some reason we can't get it done I'll loose out on the deal of a lifetime.

Joe

[cowboykell]

Lucky for you that you didn't win the sharps.

[J Miller]

Lucky for you that you didn't win the sharps.

No kidding!

Joe