What's up with Winchester?
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What's up with Winchester?
Jr. brought home a "Rifle" magazine the other day and there is an ad in it featuring brand new 95's, 94's, 92's, 86's and 85's. Has anyone actually seen one of these or even know of someone who has?
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Re: What's up with Winchester?
Well, I've certainly seen the 92s, 94s and 95s at my local shops. They're all ridiculously expensive and Made In Japan. [BARF] Don't recall seeing any 86s or 85s.
Oly
Oly
Cheers,
Oly
I hope and pray someday the world will learn
That fires we don't put out will bigger burn
Johnny Wright
Oly
I hope and pray someday the world will learn
That fires we don't put out will bigger burn
Johnny Wright
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Re: What's up with Winchester?
Don't know the truth of it but heard that the new Model 70's were being made at the FN plant in Columbia,South Carolina.
Stan in SC
Stan in SC
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Re: What's up with Winchester?
Everything except the 94's have been continuously trickling from Miroku for the past decade. Davidson's has had them forever. Pretty high priced and while I'd seriously love a 95 SRC or a 86 carbine, the lightweight pistol-grip stock takedown 86 and the 85 16" saddle-ring carbine just do NOT appeal to me.
Oh, and the tang safety and rebounding hammers leave a bad taste in my mouth.
Oh, and the tang safety and rebounding hammers leave a bad taste in my mouth.
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Re: What's up with Winchester?
I heard the same thing. Maybe a SC thing!Stan in SC wrote:Don't know the truth of it but heard that the new Model 70's were being made at the FN plant in Columbia,South Carolina.
Stan in SC
Re: What's up with Winchester?
So, Oly, WHY do you hate the Miroku guns so much?olyinaz wrote:Well, I've certainly seen the 92s, 94s and 95s at my local shops. They're all ridiculously expensive and Made In Japan. [BARF] Don't recall seeing any 86s or 85s.
Oly
I don't like the lawyer safeties and rebounding hammers, but fit and finish is good and the bluing is beautiful. They are expensive, but do you think they could be made in the US any cheaper or better?
Kind regards,
Tycer
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Re: What's up with Winchester?
Haven't seen the 94 yet, but the last time I was in the Cabela's in Sidney they had all of the rest of them in the gun library. Bought one of the 85's in 45-70 bpcr configuration for my wife, and what a magnificent piece of rifle making art that thing is. Beautifully fit and finished, very fancy piece of walnut, and shoots extremely well.
Re: What's up with Winchester?
I've handled and shot all of the models at last years SHOT Show. They are fine firearms, made by Miroku. The 1886 was exactly like the one I have (except I have the high grade and only the standard grade is offered right now). The prices were very reasonable.
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http://www.TARSPORTING.com
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DWWC - Member
Re: What's up with Winchester?
I have guns from Croatia, Germany, England, Australia, Turkey, Belgium and Italy. They're all well made, some are beautiful, but here's the deal (for me personally): I know folks from those countries and I LIKE THEM and, just as importantly, I like their homelands. I don't own any Chinese guns and I try, as much as humanly possible, to avoid buying Chinese products because I dislike Communist China very much. So here's why I despise Made In Japan stamped on American branded guns (since you asked): I've been to Japan, I deal with Japanese people weekly and I've learned enough about Japanese people and their society to know that I dislike it intensely. In my opinion they are an openly racist culture and on top of that I have nothing nice to say about a culture where men openly read pornography depicting the rape of school girls on buses and rail cars in full view of women and children. I could say more but I'd lapse into foul language so I'll just leave it at that. What I said about Chinese products goes ditto for Made In Japan but sometimes one doesn't have a choice (cameras, televisions, etc.) - I understand that and that's just the way it is.Tycer wrote:So, Oly, WHY do you hate the Miroku guns so much? I don't like the lawyer safeties and rebounding hammers, but fit and finish is good and the bluing is beautiful. They are expensive, but do you think they could be made in the US any cheaper or better?
Winchester is an American icon. Stamping "Made In Japan" on it literally makes me sick to my stomach given how I feel about those people and their culture (and I stress that I do not speak about Japanese Americans - if someone is an AMERICAN then I don't care what hyphen someone might put on their name as long as they themselves consider themselves Americans and love our country before any other). If Winchesters were made anywhere other than The States I'd be upset about it but Japan? It's offensive. I'm a bit more sanguine about the rebounding hammer and tang safety because my REAL Winchester has them and it works just fine (although I understand that some models suffer from misfires - just saying that mine has worked fine). But Made In Japan just doesn't work for me on a WINCHESTER and I blame Winchester for this gross injustice. I'm not even sure I can buy a Winchester of any kind I'm so angry about it (and I voted with my hard earned $$ recently when I bought a Bushmaster LR-308 instead of a Winchester SX-AR).
And for goodness sakes YES, I do think that someone could tool up a station in a plant in The States to make a Winchester Model 94 for less than a thousand dollars. Mossberg, Henry and Marlin all make .30-30 lever rifles for around $500 and gun manufacturing in Japan is arguably more expensive than in the United States so that dog don't hunt. And indeed maybe they will some day (witness the excellent new Model 70s). I'll become a Winchester customer again when they do.
Just me talkin', no one has to agree, free opinions are worth what you paid for them.
Cheers,
Oly
Cheers,
Oly
I hope and pray someday the world will learn
That fires we don't put out will bigger burn
Johnny Wright
Oly
I hope and pray someday the world will learn
That fires we don't put out will bigger burn
Johnny Wright
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Re: What's up with Winchester?
That one comment pretty much says it for me.Winchester is an American icon. Stamping "Made In Japan" on it literally makes me sick to my stomach
Rossi, Uberti, and the others all make COPIES of guns Winchester used to make, BUT they do not call them Winchesters. That is a big thing to me.
When Browning imported the Browning B-92s, they did not call them Winchesters. They were just nice copies.
Joe
***Be sneaky, get closer, bust the cap on him when you can put the ball where it counts .***
Re: What's up with Winchester?
Oly,
Outstanding answer. Thank you.
Outstanding answer. Thank you.
Kind regards,
Tycer
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Re: What's up with Winchester?
+10 on that..J Miller wrote:That one comment pretty much says it for me.Winchester is an American icon. Stamping "Made In Japan" on it literally makes me sick to my stomach
Rossi, Uberti, and the others all make COPIES of guns Winchester used to make, BUT they do not call them Winchesters. That is a big thing to me.
When Browning imported the Browning B-92s, they did not call them Winchesters. They were just nice copies.
Joe
what really ticks me off is the John Wayne 92 Commemoratives...stamped made in japan
If he were alive today....he would break them over someones noggin...
LETS GO SHOOT'N BOYS
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Re: What's up with Winchester?
+ 1000 !!!olyinaz wrote:I have guns from Croatia, Germany, England, Australia, Turkey, Belgium and Italy. They're all well made, some are beautiful, but here's the deal (for me personally): I know folks from those countries and I LIKE THEM and, just as importantly, I like their homelands. I don't own any Chinese guns and I try, as much as humanly possible, to avoid buying Chinese products because I dislike Communist China very much. So here's why I despise Made In Japan stamped on American branded guns (since you asked): I've been to Japan, I deal with Japanese people weekly and I've learned enough about Japanese people and their society to know that I dislike it intensely. In my opinion they are an openly racist culture and on top of that I have nothing nice to say about a culture where men openly read pornography depicting the rape of school girls on buses and rail cars in full view of women and children. I could say more but I'd lapse into foul language so I'll just leave it at that. What I said about Chinese products goes ditto for Made In Japan but sometimes one doesn't have a choice (cameras, televisions, etc.) - I understand that and that's just the way it is.Tycer wrote:So, Oly, WHY do you hate the Miroku guns so much? I don't like the lawyer safeties and rebounding hammers, but fit and finish is good and the bluing is beautiful. They are expensive, but do you think they could be made in the US any cheaper or better?
Winchester is an American icon. Stamping "Made In Japan" on it literally makes me sick to my stomach given how I feel about those people and their culture (and I stress that I do not speak about Japanese Americans - if someone is an AMERICAN then I don't care what hyphen someone might put on their name as long as they themselves consider themselves Americans and love our country before any other). If Winchesters were made anywhere other than The States I'd be upset about it but Japan? It's offensive. I'm a bit more sanguine about the rebounding hammer and tang safety because my REAL Winchester has them and it works just fine (although I understand that some models suffer from misfires - just saying that mine has worked fine). But Made In Japan just doesn't work for me on a WINCHESTER and I blame Winchester for this gross injustice. I'm not even sure I can buy a Winchester of any kind I'm so angry about it (and I voted with my hard earned $$ recently when I bought a Bushmaster LR-308 instead of a Winchester SX-AR).
And for goodness sakes YES, I do think that someone could tool up a station in a plant in The States to make a Winchester Model 94 for less than a thousand dollars. Mossberg, Henry and Marlin all make .30-30 lever rifles for around $500 and gun manufacturing in Japan is arguably more expensive than in the United States so that dog don't hunt. And indeed maybe they will some day (witness the excellent new Model 70s). I'll become a Winchester customer again when they do.
Just me talkin', no one has to agree, free opinions are worth what you paid for them.
Cheers,
Oly
I feel as though we could have set this operation up here in the U.S.of A. and been competitive. They're decent quality arms. However, this move was purely for a "profit" as Miroku has an already established factory/tooling. Did they save the brand? Or do a disservice by sending it overseas?
I'm a proud American and I voted accordingly. I have no illusions about commerce, however I will keep my money in the US as often as possible.
Why do you think F.N. picked up the model 70's soooo quick? PRIDE in America and they already had a factory with tooling. And of course a product you can't really lose on if you stay within people's budgets and tastes. Which they've done. Good on them.
My .02¢.............
Thanks, Tom
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Re: What's up with Winchester?
Can I just say in defense of Japanese people...I have a sister in law who is top notch in "EVERY" way. My brother-in-law met her when he was there for college 18 years ago. I'm very proud to be an Uncle to those half Japanese kids. As a culture, the Japanese can be the most racist people on earth, but there are many individuals that are first class.
As far as the pornography, I'm in the library business. I have seen lots of good old Americans, accessing all kinds of porn at the library. And yes, we can stop many of them from doing some of the grosser stuff, but under Federal law we can't filter.
I'm as red blooded as the next guy, but my own two cents, is pornography has become a plague. The most ugly images; bestiality, child porn, gang rape, all kinds of violence towards women, are just a mouse click away from anyone that can reach a keyboard. This is just some of the stuff I have seen being accessed at the library. And as far as the illegal stuff, yes the police are called!
As far as the pornography, I'm in the library business. I have seen lots of good old Americans, accessing all kinds of porn at the library. And yes, we can stop many of them from doing some of the grosser stuff, but under Federal law we can't filter.
I'm as red blooded as the next guy, but my own two cents, is pornography has become a plague. The most ugly images; bestiality, child porn, gang rape, all kinds of violence towards women, are just a mouse click away from anyone that can reach a keyboard. This is just some of the stuff I have seen being accessed at the library. And as far as the illegal stuff, yes the police are called!
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Re: What's up with Winchester?
[quote="Why do you think F.N. picked up the model 70's soooo quick? PRIDE in America and they already had a factory with tooling. And of course a product you can't really lose on if you stay within people's budgets and tastes. Which they've done. Good on them.
My .02¢.............
Thanks, Tom[/quote]
They didn't pickup anything, FN Herstal owned Winchester and Browning for years before the mess in Conneticut forced the closing of that factory.
All Brownings have been made at the Miroku plant (another wholy owned subdivision of FN Herstal) for decades, and before that the Brownings came from Belgium.....
My .02¢.............
Thanks, Tom[/quote]
They didn't pickup anything, FN Herstal owned Winchester and Browning for years before the mess in Conneticut forced the closing of that factory.
All Brownings have been made at the Miroku plant (another wholy owned subdivision of FN Herstal) for decades, and before that the Brownings came from Belgium.....
Re: What's up with Winchester?
Thank for writing that Oly. I feel much the same; many, many Japanese men are total racist and sexist. Also didn't the Chinese gov't. say a very few years ago that they would destroy the US? In China I believe Christians are still prosecuted (jailed, tortured, murdered) and it's a really stiff sentence for smuggling bibles into the country. I too try not to purchase anything with "Made In China" or "Made In Japan" on the lable, but that's getting harder every day...
Mike
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Re: What's up with Winchester?
Don, I should'nt have used the term "picked up". I was referring to the Tactical rifles they had been turning out for a few years prior which are based on Model 70 actions. I think that made the decision easier for them to "move" the product line to SC. As well as the lower production costs there.
Just making the point that they could have stayed in the U.S. with the 94's.
And yes, it was a debacle in Connecticut.
Thanks, Tom
Just making the point that they could have stayed in the U.S. with the 94's.
And yes, it was a debacle in Connecticut.
Thanks, Tom
War sees no color, sex, or ethnic background - wars only see blood shed by our heroes for our freedoms.
I Am An American! Fighting for our Country and our way of life.
Fourth Generation Veteran and Proud !!
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Re: What's up with Winchester?
I had a Browning 65 that was very well made and with a high degree of finish on the metal and the wood, but I sold it. So far it's the only gun I've ever sold. The "Made in Japan" didn't help it's case when I had to decide. I've never even met anyone from Japan ... but my grandfather left me with desire not to abide Japanese products. He never really talked about it much but I believe his service in the Pacific Theater left that mark on him. He passed some 25 years ago but I still vividly remember him upbraiding my father for buying a Japanese camera back in the 70's. I've decided it's just not worth the risk of raising his ire.
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Re: What's up with Winchester?
Tom I think if they feel the demand is there they'll throw the proper chips in the cnc machinery in Goosecreek and we'll have onshore built 94's again.. The demand for the model 70's never relaxed any. I wish they'ld bring back the Model 12 shotgun... but I'm betting that one won't ever happen.
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Re: What's up with Winchester?
The reason the demand for the 94s faltered was because of the redesigned actions and the addition of the safeties.Don McDowell wrote:Tom I think if they feel the demand is there they'll throw the proper chips in the cnc machinery in Goosecreek and we'll have onshore built 94's again.. The demand for the model 70's never relaxed any. I wish they'ld bring back the Model 12 shotgun... but I'm betting that one won't ever happen.
Yes they sold millions from 82 to 06, but towards the end the demand wasn't what it was.
Make them in the US as they were before with all the changes and they'll be wasting their money. So they'll just make a run every so often in Japan and they'll all sell.
Unless we see a genuine major caliber miracle this country's industry is doomed.
Joe
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Re: What's up with Winchester?
Are you sure your real Winchester with the rebounding hammer and tang safety was not made in Japan? I thought all 86 and 92's were made in the Miroku plant or, at the very least, the receivers and internals were. I can't see Winchester making 86 and 92 receivers both in the USA and at Miroku. I could be wrong, of course. I'm just asking. If your real Winchester is an 86 or 92 and it says 'Made in the USA', I'd be very suspicious that the receiver and internals were made by Miroku, shipped to the USA, and then assembled in the USA. I'd be curious to find out what is going on there.olyinaz wrote: ... I'm a bit more sanguine about the rebounding hammer and tang safety because my REAL Winchester has them and it works just fine
As for where Winchesters are made, even though I'm a Canadian, I'd still like to see them made in the USA where they started out, if for no other reason than for nostalgia. Having said that, I know a superb levergun with excellent fit and finish when I see it, and both Uberti and Miroku make them.
I think a deeper concern is the drain of the manufacturing industry from the USA and Canada to China, but we can't blame China entirely for that ...... we've had a part in it ourselves.
Kirk: An old geezer who loves the smell of freshly turned earth, old cedar rail fences, wood smoke, a crackling fireplace on a snowy evening, pristine wilderness lakes, the scent of
cedars and a magnificent Whitetail buck framed in the semi-buckhorn sights of a 120-year old Winchester.
Blog: https://www.kirkdurston.com/
cedars and a magnificent Whitetail buck framed in the semi-buckhorn sights of a 120-year old Winchester.
Blog: https://www.kirkdurston.com/
Re: What's up with Winchester?
Joe, I never had any problem with the ae, rebouding hammer or the tang safety. I didn't like the bigbore thing with the glandular growth that did nothing for the "strength" of the action or the time during which they tried to out Marlin Marlin and put that UUUGGGGLY crossbolt safety on.
If they were to bring out a standard 94 (ae is fine,no qualms on the tang safety either) in 25-35,or 38-55 I'ld snap one up. I think bringing them in 30-30 would be good, but I've got 3 in that cartridge and really can't justify in my own mind another one so chambered.
If they were to bring out a standard 94 (ae is fine,no qualms on the tang safety either) in 25-35,or 38-55 I'ld snap one up. I think bringing them in 30-30 would be good, but I've got 3 in that cartridge and really can't justify in my own mind another one so chambered.
Re: What's up with Winchester?
Yes, it's a Model 94 saddle ring carbine in .357 magnum. It has the tang safety, no cross bolt, rebounding hammer, some really ugly non-walnut wood and it's Made in the U.S.A.KirkD wrote:Are you sure your real Winchester with the rebounding hammer and tang safety was not made in Japan?olyinaz wrote: ... I'm a bit more sanguine about the rebounding hammer and tang safety because my REAL Winchester has them and it works just fine
Cheers,
Oly
Cheers,
Oly
I hope and pray someday the world will learn
That fires we don't put out will bigger burn
Johnny Wright
Oly
I hope and pray someday the world will learn
That fires we don't put out will bigger burn
Johnny Wright
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Re: What's up with Winchester?
Ah. I'm not aware of any 94 receivers and internals made by Miroku, although I could be uninformed.olyinaz wrote:Yes, it's a Model 94 saddle ring carbine in .357 magnum. It has the tang safety, no cross bolt, rebounding hammer, some really ugly non-walnut wood and it's Made in the U.S.A.KirkD wrote:Are you sure your real Winchester with the rebounding hammer and tang safety was not made in Japan?olyinaz wrote: ... I'm a bit more sanguine about the rebounding hammer and tang safety because my REAL Winchester has them and it works just fine
The thing that I find irritating is why Winchester USA cannot find a way to produce the same guns Uberti does without the rebounding hammer and tang safety. Until they do, I'll be looking at Uberti should I ever break down and purchase a modern levergun. Either that, or if it is a modern 86, I'd get Nate Kiowa Jones to work his magic. In the meantime, I'll stick with the original Winchesters that were made in America 100 years ago, and were there throughout the last century actually helping to put food on the table and earning their keep, with their proud history silently spoken of in their appearance
Kirk: An old geezer who loves the smell of freshly turned earth, old cedar rail fences, wood smoke, a crackling fireplace on a snowy evening, pristine wilderness lakes, the scent of
cedars and a magnificent Whitetail buck framed in the semi-buckhorn sights of a 120-year old Winchester.
Blog: https://www.kirkdurston.com/
cedars and a magnificent Whitetail buck framed in the semi-buckhorn sights of a 120-year old Winchester.
Blog: https://www.kirkdurston.com/
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Re: What's up with Winchester?
Only the Oliver Winchester commemorative 94s were made in Japan.olyinaz wrote:Yes, it's a Model 94 saddle ring carbine in .357 magnum. It has the tang safety, no cross bolt, rebounding hammer, some really ugly non-walnut wood and it's Made in the U.S.A.KirkD wrote:Are you sure your real Winchester with the rebounding hammer and tang safety was not made in Japan?olyinaz wrote: ... I'm a bit more sanguine about the rebounding hammer and tang safety because my REAL Winchester has them and it works just fine
Cheers,
Oly
No regular production guns have been made there ... yet.
Joe
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Re: What's up with Winchester?
Kirk,
The 86 and 92 Winchesters with the rebounding hammers and tang safeties were all made in Japan by Miroku. None were made in the US. All US made 86 and 92 Winchesters stopped many decades ago.
Don,
I really don't have any problem with the AE feature. But I can't abide the rebounding hammer or the safeties. Those last two are deal breakers for me and I don't care where they are made.
Browning had Miroku make the 92s and 86s back in the 80s to John Browning's original design. Those were and are superbly made guns.
If I had the cash I'd grab one.
Even Steve Young has commented on the problems with the extra parts in the rebounding hammer guns. Not all are problematic, but enough are that it's just not worth my trouble to mess with them. Even if I did have the extra cash.
It's not totally the "MADE IN JAPAN" label, it's that, the actions and the word Winchester stamped on them.
Rebounding hammers = strike one
Add on safety gadgets = strike two
Winchester stamped on the barrel = strike three.
Joe
The 86 and 92 Winchesters with the rebounding hammers and tang safeties were all made in Japan by Miroku. None were made in the US. All US made 86 and 92 Winchesters stopped many decades ago.
Don,
I really don't have any problem with the AE feature. But I can't abide the rebounding hammer or the safeties. Those last two are deal breakers for me and I don't care where they are made.
Browning had Miroku make the 92s and 86s back in the 80s to John Browning's original design. Those were and are superbly made guns.
If I had the cash I'd grab one.
Even Steve Young has commented on the problems with the extra parts in the rebounding hammer guns. Not all are problematic, but enough are that it's just not worth my trouble to mess with them. Even if I did have the extra cash.
It's not totally the "MADE IN JAPAN" label, it's that, the actions and the word Winchester stamped on them.
Rebounding hammers = strike one
Add on safety gadgets = strike two
Winchester stamped on the barrel = strike three.
Joe
***Be sneaky, get closer, bust the cap on him when you can put the ball where it counts .***
Re: What's up with Winchester?
Due to union intrusion any Winchester product made in the USA would probably cost 3-4 time what the "Japchesters" sell for. If the words "Made In Japan" are an issue, just remove them, that's what I did. The Japanese "Winchesters" are far and away much better made than anything Olin produced in the last 45 years. Sad, but true. Disruptive and power hungry unions have caused many manufacturers to "escape" overseas. I was a IBEW sucker, er, I mean member for 30+ yrs and it galled me to know that a large part of my $100/month dues were being used to support all things Democrat. I did not join the retirees union when I bailed 6 yrs ago.
"Congressmen who willfully take actions during wartime that damage morale, and undermine the military are saboteurs and should be arrested, exiled or hanged"....President Abraham Lincoln
Re: What's up with Winchester?
I can certainly understand the anti Japanese feelings. The man that first shared the gospel with me was just a small boy and watched the attack on Pearl Harbor from his front porch. The solution for Winchester would be to build their rifles in a right to work state where unions wouldn't be an issue. Maybe that's why Glock is in Georgia.
Oly, thanks for your input.
Oly, thanks for your input.
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Re: What's up with Winchester?
I could be wrong, but I think the price of labor in Japan is not much different than here. I suspect there are a lot of robotics in that Miroku plant. If that is the case, then I don't see why those leverguns couldn't be made in America ... unless Winchester 'sold their birthright' by signing a contract with Miroku giving them sole right to produce 86's, 92's and 95's. Just utter speculation on my part.
Kirk: An old geezer who loves the smell of freshly turned earth, old cedar rail fences, wood smoke, a crackling fireplace on a snowy evening, pristine wilderness lakes, the scent of
cedars and a magnificent Whitetail buck framed in the semi-buckhorn sights of a 120-year old Winchester.
Blog: https://www.kirkdurston.com/
cedars and a magnificent Whitetail buck framed in the semi-buckhorn sights of a 120-year old Winchester.
Blog: https://www.kirkdurston.com/
Re: What's up with Winchester?
Japanese and german union workers make a higher wage, have more vacation and better health care than us greedy US union workers. That dog don't hunt anymoreMike D. wrote:Due to union intrusion any Winchester product made in the USA would probably cost 3-4 time what the "Japchesters" sell for. If the words "Made In Japan" are an issue, just remove them, that's what I did. The Japanese "Winchesters" are far and away much better made than anything Olin produced in the last 45 years. Sad, but true. Disruptive and power hungry unions have caused many manufacturers to "escape" overseas. I was a IBEW sucker, er, I mean member for 30+ yrs and it galled me to know that a large part of my $100/month dues were being used to support all things Democrat. I did not join the retirees union when I bailed 6 yrs ago.
Re: What's up with Winchester?
One of the project people involved in "moving" the 94 told me last year that FN had determined the 94 could not be made competitively in the US, including the SC plant where the 70s are now made.
Turkey & China were apparently considered before settling on the Miroku plant where high quality leverguns are already made & understood, and there's already a business relationship in place.
"Winchester" will be offering a short rifle 94 in .30-30 and a sporting model 94 next year.
I think they've gotten past the commemorative phase.
They'll still be priced high, and they'll still have the AE & safety.
Denis
Turkey & China were apparently considered before settling on the Miroku plant where high quality leverguns are already made & understood, and there's already a business relationship in place.
"Winchester" will be offering a short rifle 94 in .30-30 and a sporting model 94 next year.
I think they've gotten past the commemorative phase.
They'll still be priced high, and they'll still have the AE & safety.
Denis
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Re: What's up with Winchester?
Totally agree. As far why they are so expensive, look at the difference in average income. The standard of living is much higher in Japan, after peeling back the top 10% of the income earners, the average Japanese makes almost 25% more than the average American under the same criteria.J Miller wrote:That one comment pretty much says it for me.Winchester is an American icon. Stamping "Made In Japan" on it literally makes me sick to my stomach
Rossi, Uberti, and the others all make COPIES of guns Winchester used to make, BUT they do not call them Winchesters. That is a big thing to me.
When Browning imported the Browning B-92s, they did not call them Winchesters. They were just nice copies.
Joe
Re: What's up with Winchester?
I'm sorry sir, but I just don't buy that. Marlin, Henry and Mossberg all manage to get it done for around $500 and all of 'em out east in union-land. Respectfully, I aint buyin' it for one second.Mike D. wrote:Due to union intrusion any Winchester product made in the USA would probably cost 3-4 time what the "Japchesters" sell for.
Oly
Cheers,
Oly
I hope and pray someday the world will learn
That fires we don't put out will bigger burn
Johnny Wright
Oly
I hope and pray someday the world will learn
That fires we don't put out will bigger burn
Johnny Wright
Re: What's up with Winchester?
Marlin's being split up & moved in two different directions, I don't think the Ilion plant's unionized, is it?
Don't think Henry is either.
Dunno about Mossberg.
Denis
Don't think Henry is either.
Dunno about Mossberg.
Denis
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Re: What's up with Winchester?
At the risk of this topic becoming too political I’ll add my opinion anyway. It is very expensive to bring a new design to market. What i mean by that is these may be old gun designs but the tooling doesn't exist anymore. Computerized machines do cut cost but the initial acquisition and setup is a large factor. The problem with unionized shops are a factor as well. But, I feel the two primary factors that have caused most of our manufacturing to leave this country is government regulations relating to the EPA and OSHA and probably the biggest reason is the lack of tort reform. It is just too easy to get sued in this country. Of all the develop nations we are the only one that does not have loser pay tort reform. One of the reasons government controlled healthcare somewhat works in Europe is the fact that if you sue and you lose you have to pay the plaintiffs legal expenses, too. If you have a problem with a Uberti Product try going to Italy and suing them.
Then you throw in the fact that some on the far left sue knowing they aren’t going to win but they just want to drive those folks out of business. Look what they did to Bushmaster because of the DC snipers mis-use of their product.
I’ve said this many times, until we have tort reform and term limits not much is ever going to change here. If for nothing else Dan Quayle will always be remembered for his statement that there something wrong when a country only has 25% of the world’s population but 75% of the worlds lawyers.
BTW, does anyone really know how many lawyer jokes there are?
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I do, there’s only two. All the rest are true!!!!
My opoligies to any conservative lawyers that may see this. You guys seem to be terribly out-numbered.
Then you throw in the fact that some on the far left sue knowing they aren’t going to win but they just want to drive those folks out of business. Look what they did to Bushmaster because of the DC snipers mis-use of their product.
I’ve said this many times, until we have tort reform and term limits not much is ever going to change here. If for nothing else Dan Quayle will always be remembered for his statement that there something wrong when a country only has 25% of the world’s population but 75% of the worlds lawyers.
BTW, does anyone really know how many lawyer jokes there are?
?
?
?
?
?
?
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I do, there’s only two. All the rest are true!!!!
My opoligies to any conservative lawyers that may see this. You guys seem to be terribly out-numbered.
Steve Young aka Nate Kiowa Jones Sass# 6765
Steve's Guns aka "Rossi 92 Specialists"
205 Antler lane
Lampasas, Texas 76550
http://www.stevesgunz.com
Email; steve@stevesgunz.com
Tel: 512-564-1015
Steve's Guns aka "Rossi 92 Specialists"
205 Antler lane
Lampasas, Texas 76550
http://www.stevesgunz.com
Email; steve@stevesgunz.com
Tel: 512-564-1015
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Re: What's up with Winchester?
Sad part of all this is that Winchester is still owned by Olin a good ole American company, they want us to buy their ammo but don't want to make us the guns to use it in, I had a Browning 86 rifle that I bought in 86 when they came out, nice rifle but not as well made as an original Winchester, at present I have Browning 71 and if someone walked through the front door with a Winchester 71 and wanted to swap even if the Winchester wasn't in as good a condition the Browning would be gone.
Iam with Kirk just stick with the originals and if you just want a shooter they are not that expensive.
These modern day Winchester's aren't really Winchester's at all they just pay Olin to use the name because it is famous.
Iam with Kirk just stick with the originals and if you just want a shooter they are not that expensive.
These modern day Winchester's aren't really Winchester's at all they just pay Olin to use the name because it is famous.
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Re: What's up with Winchester?
I dont know how I feel about "made in Japan" stamped on a gun, having never owned one.
What I do know is I recently handled one of the new 1885 single shots and it was a beauty. It was priced a little more than $800. I thought it was a steal at that price. I was told it there were other calibers available. So while I dont know how I feel about 'made in Japan" I may have to find out.
What I do know is I recently handled one of the new 1885 single shots and it was a beauty. It was priced a little more than $800. I thought it was a steal at that price. I was told it there were other calibers available. So while I dont know how I feel about 'made in Japan" I may have to find out.
Re: What's up with Winchester?
I have two "Made in Japan" rifles: A Weatherby Mark V and my newly acquired, NOS Browning 1895. The workmanship, fit, and finish on both of these guns is spectacular. Whatever criticisms one may level at firearms made in Japan, lack of quality can't be one of them if Browning, Winchester, or Weatherby is stamped on it.dr walker wrote:I dont know how I feel about "made in Japan" stamped on a gun, having never owned one.
What I do know is I recently handled one of the new 1885 single shots and it was a beauty. It was priced a little more than $800. I thought it was a steal at that price. I was told it there were other calibers available. So while I dont know how I feel about 'made in Japan" I may have to find out.
Re: What's up with Winchester?
Rusty wrote:I can certainly understand the anti Japanese feelings. The man that first shared the gospel with me was just a small boy and watched the attack on Pearl Harbor from his front porch. The solution for Winchester would be to build their rifles in a right to work state where unions wouldn't be an issue. Maybe that's why Glock is in Georgia.
Oly, thanks for your input.
Funny thing is CT IS a right to work state. All you need to do to get rid of a union here is dont sign a contract & hire non union help.
JMHO but they simply couldn't afford to make them profitably here anymore. Making them here & trying to get $1000 for them would never work, they sold as well as they did because they were affordable. They were affordable because at one time labor was cheap. Its not so cheap anymore and blaming the unions is foolhardy at best. Heck Remington just moved Marlins lever gun manufactureing, a non union company, into its Ilion NY facility, a union shop. In most cases non union & union cost very close to the same money, in this case from what I gather the union shop will cost less money. Has more to do with the cost of living in one place compared to another than it does union vs non union.
Its best for the corporation that owns the Win name to make some in Japan when they think the market will bear it, just like the 92, 86 & 95 rather than trying to keep making them full time here at a loss.
Theres a reason why Win discontinued the 86 & 92 and tried to do everything with the 94. And its the same reason IMO that they will never make an affordable 94 in America again. Theyre just too complex a design to turn out quality guns at a competitive price. Theres no question that the quality of Miroku guns is head & shoulders above what was coming out of the CT factory the last few years.
Theres certainly an unfriendly business climate in CT for manufacturing, but it has nothing to do with unions.
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Re: What's up with Winchester?
If I recall FN bought Winchester and Browning, then FN was taken over by a French conglomerate.
I believe closing the Winchester plant and dropping the '94 was an act of French spite.
I believe closing the Winchester plant and dropping the '94 was an act of French spite.