Original '86 45-70 cycles and chambers 500 grain bullet

[KirkD]

I thought I read somewhere that original '86 45-70's could do this, but had never tried it. I took an original 45-70 500 grain black powder round, with the same O.A.L. as an original 45-90 bullet, and stuck it in the chamber of my original '86 made in 1890. To my surprise, it slid right in. Then I loaded it into the magazine through the loading gate and, again to my surprise, it cycled flawlessly. Just out of curiosity, I then tried to chamber an original 45-90 round. No dice; the rim of the case hit the throat and would not go in further, as I expected. To be clear here, I'm not talking about loading a 500 grain bullet deeper into the case to retain the standard 45-70 O.A.L. I'm talking about seating a 500 grain bullet into the case, giving the same O.A.L. as a 45-90, yet the round cycles and chambers perfectly. Call me uninformed, but I didn't know this before.

I then loaded up five rounds, using a 500 grain plain base cast bullet to see how they shoot. I had to make the O.A.L. slightly longer then the 45-90 O.A.L., in order to crimp the case on the front driving band. If I was using BP, I could seat the bullet just a tad deeper to it crimped over the front driving band. As it is, these longer reloads will not cycle, as the nose of the bullet catches. However, if the bullets shoot half decent, I just may load up a bunch of BP rounds to the proper O.A.L. and have some fun.

Has anyone shot 500 grain cast bullets out their original '86 to see how accurate they are? With a long throat like this, it makes me think I should look into a longer 405 bullet (forward of the crimp), if there are such animals.

[Malamute]

I've shot the old Lyman 500 gr govt style bullet in my 86's. Seated to just crimp over the front driving band, they give the same OAL as a 45-90 round. I've seen old original Govt rounds, and they look identical to the Lyman bullet when loaded.

The action length of the 86's is noticably longer than the late Marlin 95's. Looking in the open action as it feeds, you can see all that extra room. The Brownings are the same, tho they arent all clearenced the same to get the longer round "around the corner" in the loading gate. It wouldnt take much to clearance them, some will go easier than others I believe. I think I worked a 50-110 round in my Browning rifle, tho it got snug halfway in the loading gate. Same for a 45-90, it went, with just a little tightness, and fed fine, tho it wouldn't chamber all the way because of the 45-70 chamber being shorter.


The OLD Mt Baldy bullets from Keystone SD had a 400 or so gr bullet with the crimp groove much farther rearward, I don't recall the length, but it was closer to 45-90 OAL when seated to the crimp groove in a 45-70 case. I have a few around somewhere. I should dig them out and see what length they give. I don't think Frank got that mold tho, I believe I asked him once.

[Old Savage]

Interesting - pics Kirk??

[KirkD]

OS, I'll see if I can take some pics this afternoon and post them.

Malamute, that is interesting. I wonder why the throats on those '86s were so long? It seems to me that the sooner the bullet engages the rifling, the better, so a longer nosed 400 grain bullet might be more accurate than a short nosed one.

[Stan in SC]

500 grain??Makes my shoulder hurt just thinking about it.I'll be interested in your range report.

Stan in SC

[OldWin]

Kirk,

Interesting, I never knew this. The 86 I have now is a 45-90 but for years I had a 45-70 and only ever shot 405's. I would be curious about accuracy and sight regulation. I don't shoot the 86's much as I prefer the pistol cartridges. Just want to thank you for all the great info you have provided us all regarding these rifles/cartridges.

OldWin

[Malamute]

Kirk, the Browning throats are short, but the old Govt 500's and 500 gr Lyman 457125 (?)bullets are skinny up front, like Remington jacketed ones and old Govt 400's are, with the driving bands being full diameter.


At standard velocity, they generally shoot well from what I understand. I tried some in the Browning rifle at 1750 fps and some keyholed at 25 yards. I didnt look into it further, as the crescent butt was absolute murder with those loads (and what influenced me to cut the crescent off).

[KirkD]

500 grains at 1,750 fps ..... that sounds like a recipe for pain! Here is a photo, as promised to OS. The two left cartridges are original, ancient BP rounds. You can see that the 500 grain 45-70 cartridge is the same length as the 45-90 cartridge. The original 500 grain cartridge cycles and chambers smoothly without a hitch. You can see that my reload is a bit longer, simply because I wanted to crimp it on the front driving band. Those are just a tad too long to cycle, but they still chamber fine.

[Old Savage]

Thanks Kirk, great pics - easy to see what you are talking about. 45-70 is one of my favorites.

[w30wcf]

Kirk,
I don't think your rifle has a long throat. If you put the bullet nose into the muzzle, I think you will find that it will go right in to the 1st driving band.

w30wcf

[KirkD]

John, you are right. I just tried it.

[Rimfire McNutjob]

So basically the 500 has a long bore riding nose on it?

[KirkD]

So basically the 500 has a long bore riding nose on it?

Well ..... almost. I checked the specs for a 45-70 bore and it is .450/.452. The diameter of the cylindrical nose on my 500 grain bullets is around .444. When I stuck the bullet in the muzzle, it was not a tight fit; there was a tiny bit of wiggle.

[Ysabel Kid]

Really looking forward to hearing how these perform!