OT- mutilated Blackhawk

Otto · Post by **Otto** » Fri Jul 16, 2010 8:23 pm

Why would anyone do this, especially with a three-screw?

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewIt ... =179117268

J Miller · Post by **J Miller** » Fri Jul 16, 2010 8:29 pm

Most likely when that was done there was no collectors value or mystique about it. The Ruger lock work is stronger than a Colts and with modifications will last a lot longer.

Kind of like drilling a pre-64 Win 94 for side mount scope mounts back in the 50s and 60s. Was no big deal then.

It's junque now, that's for sure.

Joe

Pisgah · Post by **Pisgah** » Fri Jul 16, 2010 8:32 pm

Back when that was a common-as-dirt new gun, Fast Draw competition was hot stuff. I'll bet many a fast-fannin' "cowboy" would've coveted such a gun.

O.S.O.K. · Post by **O.S.O.K.** » Fri Jul 16, 2010 9:16 pm

The epitomy of a gamer gun. Not my cup of tea.

Fast draw is not my cup of tea though, period. To each his own...

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Fri Jul 16, 2010 9:34 pm

Some of you guys who aren't happy with the factory barrel-length offerings, and always talking about chopping a 7-1/2" down to make a "Sheriff's" model or some such, could pick this one up cheap, put a new hammer on it, and re-barrel it.

Dunno what about the rear sight, though...

jkbrea · Post by **jkbrea** » Fri Jul 16, 2010 10:43 pm

Why would you buy a gun that doesn't shoot bullets ????

20cows · Post by **20cows** » Fri Jul 16, 2010 10:46 pm

Aren't you glad he did it to a Ruger instead of an old Colt's?

Otto · Post by **Otto** » Fri Jul 16, 2010 10:50 pm

jkbrea wrote:Why would you buy a gun that doesn't shoot bullets ????

And why would rifling be necessary in a blank-firing "weapon"?

The barrel was replaced with a rifled Aluminum tube to save weight.

Nate Kiowa Jones · Post by **Nate Kiowa Jones** » Sat Jul 17, 2010 12:47 am

Otto wrote:
jkbrea wrote:Why would you buy a gun that doesn't shoot bullets ????
Back when this gun was first made the Fast Draw game was big. Sort of reminds me of the folks that spend several thou on air rifles.

And why would rifling be necessary in a blank-firing "weapon"?
The barrel was replaced with a rifled Aluminum tube to save weight.

Even with an aluminum barrel the ATF would consider it a short barrel shotgun if it had a smooth bore. To save weight some even had aluminum cylinders

J Miller · Post by **J Miller** » Sat Jul 17, 2010 10:04 am

AJMD429 wrote:Some of you guys who aren't happy with the factory barrel-length offerings, and always talking about chopping a 7-1/2" down to make a "Sheriff's" model or some such, could pick this one up cheap, put a new hammer on it, and re-barrel it.

Dunno what about the rear sight, though...

AJ,

The lower front of the frame forward the grip frame has been drastically thinned down and so has the top strap.
I wouldn't trust the strength of that frame to stand up to full power ammo.
Best use it for firing blanks, or part it out, use what you can and scrap the frame and the rest.

Joe

Griff · Post by **Griff** » Sat Jul 17, 2010 10:31 am

...modified to use in fast draw competition or exhibition shooting...

And if that gun had a pedigree that tied it to someone famous that played who game you could probably add a couple of "0's" to that price! Lot's of '50s & '60s stars played "queecks draw"!

Nate Kiowa Jones · Post by **Nate Kiowa Jones** » Sat Jul 17, 2010 11:38 am

Griff wrote:
...modified to use in fast draw competition or exhibition shooting...
And if that gun had a pedigree that tied it to someone famous that played who game you could probably add a couple of "0's" to that price! Lot's of '50s & '60s stars played "queecks draw"!

One of the most famous but little know as an SAA trick gun handler and fast draw guy was Sammy Davis Jr.

J Miller wrote:
AJMD429 wrote:Some of you guys who aren't happy with the factory barrel-length offerings, and always talking about chopping a 7-1/2" down to make a "Sheriff's" model or some such, could pick this one up cheap, put a new hammer on it, and re-barrel it.

Dunno what about the rear sight, though...
AJ,

The lower front of the frame forward the grip frame has been drastically thinned down and so has the top strap.
I wouldn't trust the strength of that frame to stand up to full power ammo.
Best use it for firing blanks, or part it out, use what you can and scrap the frame and the rest.

Joe

And that top strap has been welded, too.

Hagler · Post by **Hagler** » Sat Jul 17, 2010 1:18 pm

Gents,

That gun has all of the earmarks typical of the time.

In case you are not familliar with "quick draw" competiton, it is basically popping balloons with overloads of black powder & NO bullets. The excess black powder acts like the shot charge in a shotgun shell, and pops the target balloons. This is also how trick-shooter perform in front of a crowd, "safely".

Shawn

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Sat Jul 17, 2010 1:46 pm

Yeah, I wondered about how much strength would remain in that skinny top-strap.

Maybe convert it to a 1850's style open-top blackpowder pistol...?

I know. . . just use a laser sight on an under-barrel rail. . .

caryc · Post by **caryc** » Sat Jul 17, 2010 2:00 pm

I see that a lot of people know nothing about fast draw. It is not a thing of the past. There are many fast draw organizations, the top one being the WFDA. World Fast Draw Association. Let me see if I can clear up a few things.

The old Rugers are used because they have the smaller cylinder frames and the aluminum grip frames on them. No one in his right mind is going to take a beautiful old model Ruger and turn it into a fast draw gun. They are made mostly from parts guns. And as was said, a Colt will just not stand up to the punishment that a Ruger will take.

The barrels are aluminum with a rifled steel insert. Why is it rifled? It’s rifled because fast draw guns do not fire blanks only. It depends on the competition but some of them fire wax bullets. You can see an assortment of wax bullets in the picture. The custom made stainless .45 cal cases are made to hold a .22 cal blank to propel the wax bullet. They are pretty powerful and will break a glass bottle. The .38 cal cases in the pic are drilled out to hold a 209 shotgun primer to propel the wax.

Fast draw competition is not just pulling a gun and making a noise in the quickest time. You actually have to hit a target. If you think you can pull a gun, shoot and hit a target in a quarter of a second, you’d better think again. In the old days, as in Sammy Davis Jr.’s day, one did not have to hit any target. They just had a timer that started when the gun was drawn and a contact in the holster was broken. The timer stopped when the shot was fired. So all that was timed was how long it took to pull the gun and fire a shot.

Today it’s completely different. They use balloon targets mostly. A 45. cal case loaded with black powder will break a balloon when the unburned particles of powder hit the balloon. The shooter is given a “ready” signal. At that point a light at the target will flash. He has not idea when it will flash as it is completely random and will flash at anytime between 1 second and 5 seconds. This tells him that the next time the light flashes the timer will start. This second light is also set to come on randomly so he still has no warning when to draw. So this includes the shooters reaction time in his fast draw speed. In the old days, they just drew and fired when they were ready and didn’t have to hit anything. As I said things have changed a whole lot since then.

In the pic below you can see two of my fast draw guns. These were built by Bob Graham in Texas. One has a fanning hammer on it and the other has a thumb draw hammer. These guns are tuned for fast draw and will withstand the torture that a stock gun won’t. One of the things that protects them is the adjustable hammer stop block. As you can see in one of the pictures, it limits the rear travel of the hammer. If you take a stock single action (unloaded of course) and cock it, then hold your hand over the cylinder and push backward on the hammer you will feel it still trying to turn the cylinder. This is what tears up stock guns. When you are talking about drawing and firing in less that half a second that cylinder is really traveling when it hits the bolt stops. A good fast draw gun is timed so that if you cock the thing slowly, it might not even lock up the cylinder. On a fast draw, the cylinder actually free wheels into the locked position. This saves a lot of wear and tear.

gamekeeper · Post by **gamekeeper** » Sat Jul 17, 2010 2:13 pm

Welcome to the fire caryc, interesting first post.

Rimfire McNutjob · Post by **Rimfire McNutjob** » Sat Jul 17, 2010 2:19 pm

Wow. Thanks for the school'in on fast draw. Very interesting.

caryc · Post by **caryc** » Sat Jul 17, 2010 2:36 pm

game keeper wrote:Welcome to the fire caryc, interesting first post.

Thanks for the welcome. Here is another of my fast draw guns. It's a single six. The barrel is .38 caliber. The front of the cylinder is reamed out to .38 cal, leaving the back at .22 cal.

You load .38 cal wax bullets in the front and load .22 cal blanks in the chambers. It's a real fun gun also.

Rusty · Post by **Rusty** » Sat Jul 17, 2010 3:25 pm

With the one that's up for auction I think it could still be used in a CAS mounted event if one were so inclined as they use the same thing to score. A heavy charge of BP where some of the powder particles break a balloon to give the score.

caryc · Post by **caryc** » Sat Jul 17, 2010 3:34 pm

Rusty wrote:With the one that's up for auction I think it could still be used in a CAS mounted event if one were so inclined as they use the same thing to score. A heavy charge of BP where some of the powder particles break a balloon to give the score.

Hmm....never though about the mounted CAS events. It makes sense that they would use blanks on horseback. Too big of a safety issue to use live ammo when trying to shoot from a running horse. You never know what that horse may do.

Otto · Post by **Otto** » Sat Jul 17, 2010 3:39 pm

caryc wrote:I see that a lot of people know nothing about fast draw....

I had read a little on the subject a couple years ago, but never followed through. The organization I was looking into required .45 caliber guns in essentially factory condition, especially regarding the appearance. I was aware that other organizations used modified guns, but I thought that was a relatively recent development. I assumed this gun had been modified within the past 30 years or so, when New Model Rugers were readily available.

caryc · Post by **caryc** » Sat Jul 17, 2010 4:03 pm

Otto wrote:
caryc wrote:I see that a lot of people know nothing about fast draw....
I had read a little on the subject a couple years ago, but never followed through. The organization I was looking into required .45 caliber guns in essentially factory condition, especially regarding the appearance. I was aware that other organizations used modified guns, but I thought that was a relatively recent development. I assumed this gun had been modified within the past 30 years or so, when New Model Rugers were readily available.

What you are probably talking about is "Cowboy Fastdraw". Their guns have to be pretty much stock. Of course they don't get nearly the fast times that WFDA shooters get.

As far as using old three screws, they use them because as I said they have the smaller cylinder frames on them. What they do even today is take the smaller .38 cal cylinder and ream it out to .45 caliber. This lightens it up quite a bit.

The regular original Vaqueros were just to big and heavy for fast draw use. The New Vaqueros are smaller but they have steel grip frames on them.

The ideal fast draw candidate guns even today are still the Ruger old model .38 caliber Blackhawks. You can't have a transfer bar in a fast draw gun. Just too many moving parts to screw up.

Even the WFDA has limits on how much modification can be done to a gun. You may have heard of Bob Munden. He bills himself as the fastest gun to have ever lived. He holds no official fast draw titles today because he would not play by the WFDA's rules as far as gun modifications. His guns would just not qualify. I'm not saying the guy's not good, I'm just saying his guns are too modified for regular fast draw.

J Miller · Post by **J Miller** » Sat Jul 17, 2010 4:10 pm

Cary,

Welcome to the forum. I'm glad Hobie got the system fixed for you.

Joe

20cows · Post by **20cows** » Sat Jul 17, 2010 7:19 pm

caryc · Post by **caryc** » Sat Jul 17, 2010 8:23 pm

Hagler wrote:Gents,

That gun has all of the earmarks typical of the time.

In case you are not familliar with "quick draw" competiton, it is basically popping balloons with overloads of black powder & NO bullets. The excess black powder acts like the shot charge in a shotgun shell, and pops the target balloons. This is also how trick-shooter perform in front of a crowd, "safely".

Shawn

As for your comment how the excess black powder acts like the shot charge in a shotgun shell, you are wrong there.

Even with balloon targets, the balloons are behind a steel plate. This plate usually has a 6 inch hole in it. So all you see is a six inch diameter view of that balloon. If you think that the single F black powder spreads out like shot in a shotgun shell, you are very much mistaken.

You still have to be on that target to hit that balloon. You don't get that much spread and most of the powder burns up anyway. Shooting with a wax bullet is self explanatory. You have to hit the target with that wax bullet. It doesn't blow apart or spread.

Drawing, aiming and firing in less than half a second is not that easy. The hardest part is learning to hit your target. Most learners shoot low. You are shooting so quick that you think you have your gun level but you don't. You have to kind of slow down when you are learning to learn how to hit the target, then work on your speed. It's just not as easy as some people would think.

One can set up a fast draw shooting range in your basement or garage for a lot of fun. Great fun on a rainy day when you can't get out of the house and you want to shoot.

Everything one needs to get started can be found here http://www.gunfighter.com/index.html

Nate Kiowa Jones · Post by **Nate Kiowa Jones** » Sat Jul 17, 2010 9:56 pm

caryc wrote:
Rusty wrote:With the one that's up for auction I think it could still be used in a CAS mounted event if one were so inclined as they use the same thing to score. A heavy charge of BP where some of the powder particles break a balloon to give the score.
Hmm....never though about the mounted CAS events. It makes sense that they would use blanks on horseback. Too big of a safety issue to use live ammo when trying to shoot from a running horse. You never know what that horse may do.

Blanks or live ammo either one, If your horse ain't acclimated to it I know exactly what he is going to do and it ain't gonna be pretty

Hi Cary,
Welcome to the fire. I've had your website book marked for a time now. Great looking wood grips. Even sent a few folks your link. Would you know where a feller could acquire some American holly?
Also, do you know West Fargo aka Wes Flowers? Wes was big in the Fast draw game at one time. I don't know if he still is, though. His health has not been to good lately.

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Sat Jul 17, 2010 10:12 pm

Fascinating and educational post on the Fast Draw stuff. Thanks, caryc...!

I always enjoy seeing how human beings can push limits, regardless of the realm. Put men on the moon, race cars and boats, shoot from horseback, carve with chainsaws, you name it.

Looks like Fast Draw has come quite a ways.

Hagler · Post by **Hagler** » Sun Jul 18, 2010 4:46 am

caryc wrote:
As for your comment how the excess black powder acts like the shot charge in a shotgun shell, you are wrong there.

Even with balloon targets, the balloons are behind a steel plate. This plate usually has a 6 inch hole in it. So all you see is a six inch diameter view of that balloon. If you think that the single F black powder spreads out like shot in a shotgun shell, you are very much mistaken.

You still have to be on that target to hit that balloon. You don't get that much spread and most of the powder burns up anyway.

Everything one needs to get started can be found here http://www.gunfighter.com/index.html

Cary,

I was drawing on information that I learned from the Web site that you directed us to. I watched the videos several years ago. Here is the link to exactly what I was talking about & where I heard heard it:

http://www.fastdraw.org/video/cal-blank.wmv

http://www.fastdraw.org/video/cal-waxblank.wmv

http://www.fastdraw.org/video/cal-blanktarget.wmv

Cal very clearly states that the black powder gives you a pattern, and the large granules are what break the balloons. I am sorry if I misunderstood what he said. Can you please correct me, and please explain how black powder (without any sort of bullet) breaks balloons.

Thanks,
Shawn

missionary5155 · Post by **missionary5155** » Sun Jul 18, 2010 5:26 am

Good morning
Bottom line is.. it was his. Good or bad.. as owner he could and can do as he pleases as long as he dont tread on the rest of us. That is what freedom is all about.

missionary5155 · Post by **missionary5155** » Sun Jul 18, 2010 5:29 am

Good morning
Balloon Breaking. Black powder does not completely burn off in a revolver load before exiting a barrel. Therefore there are unburt and still burning particles leaving the barrel at 800 or so FPS which when striking a taught ballon will puncture it with reliability.

caryc · Post by **caryc** » Sun Jul 18, 2010 10:00 am

Hagler wrote:
caryc wrote:
As for your comment how the excess black powder acts like the shot charge in a shotgun shell, you are wrong there.

Even with balloon targets, the balloons are behind a steel plate. This plate usually has a 6 inch hole in it. So all you see is a six inch diameter view of that balloon. If you think that the single F black powder spreads out like shot in a shotgun shell, you are very much mistaken.

You still have to be on that target to hit that balloon. You don't get that much spread and most of the powder burns up anyway.
Everything one needs to get started can be found here http://www.gunfighter.com/index.html
Cary,

I was drawing on information that I learned from the Web site that you directed us to. I watched the videos several years ago. Here is the link to exactly what I was talking about & where I heard heard it:

http://www.fastdraw.org/video/cal-blank.wmv

http://www.fastdraw.org/video/cal-waxblank.wmv

http://www.fastdraw.org/video/cal-blanktarget.wmv

Cal very clearly states that the black powder gives you a pattern, and the large granules are what break the balloons. I am sorry if I misunderstood what he said. Can you please correct me, and please explain how black powder (without any sort of bullet) breaks balloons.

Thanks,
Shawn

I don't need to watch those clips since I have Cal Elrich's video tape, this was before DVD's came out. I know what's on that tape since I must have watched it at least a dozen times, getting something out of it each time. I recommend this DVD very highly. It will teach you everything you need to get started in fast draw.

My point in posting here was not to rub people the wrong way or to say anybody is wrong about anything. From what was said when I posted, I figured that you guys just didn't know much about fast draw as it is today.

As far as your question in this post, you seemed to miss my point in the original post as quoted above. This is what I said. You still have to be on that target to hit that balloon. You don't get that much spread and most of the powder burns up anyway.

When I was first learning and shooting at a balloon target, the hardest thing was that since I was firing blanks, I could not see where I was hitting to correct myself. What I did was make a big target board with my balloon target in the middle. I screwed report clips to the board all around the balloon target. I could then place sheets of typing paper in those clips around the target. This let me see where my powder particles were hitting when I wasn't hitting the balloon. I would just change to a new piece of unmarked paper for the next shot.

What I found was that I was shooting low most of the time. As I said before when you are doing fast draw, you have a tendency to fire too soon before your gun is up level and pointed at the target. So, having done this, I'm pretty familiar with what kind of pattern you get from the blanks. I stand by what I reprinted in bold above. You don't get as much spread as you would with a shotgun shell. You have to be on the target for that balloon to break.

I'm sorry if you got offended by what I posted. It was not intended that way. I hope I've explained it to you fully.

Once again about the guns. No one takes a good old model three screw and makes a fast draw gun out of it. They are made up mostly of parts guns. This lets those old parts once again give some enjoyment to shooters even if it's only in a garage or basement.

By the way, one can fire wax bullets out of your good shooters without harming them in any way. Simply load an empty case with a primer and push in a wax bullet and you're good to go. You're barrel will not get waxed up as you would think. They stay very clean. Just put up a tarp hung on a rope as a back stop to stop the wax bullets.

Almost forgot one thing if you are going to shoot wax or blanks, use dedicated shell cases for this and drill out the flash hole in the primer pocket to 1/8".

Good for stuff like if you want to practice hip shooting on a raining day.

Once again the purpose for my original post here was to educate no to incite.

Griff · Post by **Griff** » Sun Jul 18, 2010 10:59 am

Cary,

Welcome to the Forum. There certainly is a wide variety of interests on this forum & a wide depth to those interests. And, while I know of the WFDA & about CFD, my lack of familarity is really that I can only devote so much time to my interests... One more might break the patience of SWMBO (SHE WHO MUST BE OBEYED).

But, seeing your posts & especially, your pics, leads me to a question. Would that heavily a modified gun be built today? I can understand the backstrap recontour an thinning, but the amount taken from the front below the cylinder pin renders it to be forever a fastdraw gun.

And no, such a piece wouldn't be practical for mounted shoooting. That piece would be rather awkward for one-handed shooting.

BTW, REALLY admire yer grips.

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Sun Jul 18, 2010 11:06 am

caryc wrote:Once again the purpose for my original post here was to educate no to incite.

None of it offended me, as I just assumed the 'like a shotshell' comment was meaning that there was some particulate stuff exiting that put holes in things, not so much that it spread out very much, or not. I've heard of 'blanks' of many types causing death due to stuff coming out, be it wadding, powder, or just blast.

One of the problems with forum/written communication is that it is easy to take something's meaning differently than intended; it happens all the time here and on other forums as well.

I just think the whole thing is interesting, and it reminds me of when I had a thing called 'convert-a-pell' to shoot .22 airgun pellets out of shotgun-primed .223 cases out of a Contender pistol. Not for 'fast draw', but just for practice. All kinds of neat stuff you can do with firearms.

Keep up the interesting posts.

caryc · Post by **caryc** » Sun Jul 18, 2010 11:23 am

Griff wrote:Cary,

Welcome to the Forum. There certainly is a wide variety of interests on this forum & a wide depth to those interests. And, while I know of the WFDA & about CFD, my lack of familarity is really that I can only devote so much time to my interests... One more might break the patience of SWMBO (SHE WHO MUST BE OBEYED).

But, seeing your posts & especially, your pics, leads me to a question. Would that heavily a modified gun be built today? I can understand the backstrap recontour an thinning, but the amount taken from the front below the cylinder pin renders it to be forever a fastdraw gun.

And no, such a piece wouldn't be practical for mounted shoooting. That piece would be rather awkward for one-handed shooting.

BTW, REALLY admire yer grips.

I had to go back and look at the original gun the thread was about, the one for sale to see what you are talking about. I see what you mean about the heavily clipped corner below the cylinder pin. None of my guns are cut that drastically. Here is the website of Bob Graham who made my guns. He is still building them today.

http://www.gunfighter.com/graham/

Fast draw guns are built for fast draw. They are never intended to fire live ammo again. As far as your comment that the gun would be no good for mounted shooting, you are correct since it has a fanning hammer on it. When building a gun, the hammer is up to you. A hammer is an easily changed part.

caryc · Post by **caryc** » Sun Jul 18, 2010 11:32 am

AJMD429 wrote:
caryc wrote:Once again the purpose for my original post here was to educate no to incite.
None of it offended me, as I just assumed the 'like a shotshell' comment was meaning that there was some particulate stuff exiting that put holes in things, not so much that it spread out very much, or not. I've heard of 'blanks' of many types causing death due to stuff coming out, be it wadding, powder, or just blast.

You are correct there. A .45 cal case fully loaded with single F powder would take off a finger if you held it in front of the barrel. Of course eye and ear protection are a must. People doing gunfight re enactments will load a small amount of FFF powder only with a thin milk carton like material wad to hold it in. No close up shots made either. You have to use your head, even with blanks.

A wax bullet will break a coke bottle so I wouldn't want to get hit with one. They are not for fooling around with like paint ball guns. You need a soft backstop like a suspended heavy canvas tarp for wax bullets. The tarp will absorb the shock and they wont bounce back at you.

Post by **Ysabel Kid** » Sun Jul 18, 2010 9:26 pm

Someone should be shot! Not by that gun of course, as it can't use real ammo!!!

Actually, I used that gun's clone several years back. I was at a sales meeting and the organizer had brought in a group for our entertainment that night. We were in Houston, so they did a Texas theme. They set a ton of Texas hold-em poker tables, but also set up a fast draw competition. Each person got a gun belt, one of those modified guns, and stood about 6 feet away from one another with a very large piece of thick plexi-glass in between. A light above the glass went from red to green and the first person to get off their shot won.

I went undefeated that night!

Of course, it was all about speed with zero for accuracy. Still, it was a hoot!!!

Doesn't mean I'd want one though!!!

caryc · Post by **caryc** » Sun Jul 18, 2010 10:31 pm

Ysabel Kid wrote:Someone should be shot! Not by that gun of course, as it can't use real ammo!!!

Actually, I used that gun's clone several years back. I was at a sales meeting and the organizer had brought in a group for our entertainment that night. We were in Houston, so they did a Texas theme. They set a ton of Texas hold-em poker tables, but also set up a fast draw competition. Each person got a gun belt, one of those modified guns, and stood about 6 feet away from one another with a very large piece of thick plexi-glass in between. A light above the glass went from red to green and the first person to get off their shot won.

I went undefeated that night!

Of course, it was all about speed with zero for accuracy. Still, it was a hoot!!!

Doesn't mean I'd want one though!!!

Exactly the point I was trying to get across. Even though these guns can't fire real ammo, one can get a lot of enjoyment out of them. I'd say that at 6 feet it's safe to say you did away with your bad guy.

I have my live ammo firing guns too and both seem to get along splendidly.

Hagler · Post by **Hagler** » Sun Jul 18, 2010 10:33 pm

Cary,

I am not offended by your comments. I am trying to understand why one expert, Cal clearly states that the black powder-only rounds are patterning & they break balloons, while you say that it is not so:

caryc wrote:

As for your comment how the excess black powder acts like the shot charge in a shotgun shell, you are wrong there.

Even with balloon targets, the balloons are behind a steel plate. This plate usually has a 6 inch hole in it. So all you see is a six inch diameter view of that balloon. If you think that the single F black powder spreads out like shot in a shotgun shell, you are very much mistaken.

You still have to be on that target to hit that balloon. You don't get that much spread and most of the powder burns up anyway.
Everything one needs to get started can be found here http://www.gunfighter.com/index.html

It appears that I am not the only person, here, that thinks the way that Cal & I think about blank shooting. Some portion of the blank cartidge has to break the balloon, because that is part of the goal of the sport, right? Partially & unburned powder should act like shotgun shot, right? I DO NOT play this sport, so I need help understanding it. Could you, Cary, please, answer the following questions:

*Can you clarify what breaks the balloon?

*Why does expert Cal repeated refer to a "pattern" of black powder, if that is not the truth?

Thank you,
Shawn

caryc · Post by **caryc** » Sun Jul 18, 2010 10:59 pm

Hagler wrote:Cary,

I am not offended by your comments. I am trying to understand why one expert, Cal clearly states that the black powder-only rounds are patterning & they break balloons, while you say that it is not so:

caryc wrote:

As for your comment how the excess black powder acts like the shot charge in a shotgun shell, you are wrong there.

Even with balloon targets, the balloons are behind a steel plate. This plate usually has a 6 inch hole in it. So all you see is a six inch diameter view of that balloon. If you think that the single F black powder spreads out like shot in a shotgun shell, you are very much mistaken.

You still have to be on that target to hit that balloon. You don't get that much spread and most of the powder burns up anyway.
Everything one needs to get started can be found here http://www.gunfighter.com/index.html

It appears that I am not the only person, here, that thinks the way that Cal & I think about blank shooting. Some portion of the blank cartidge has to break the balloon, because that is part of the goal of the sport, right? Partially & unburned powder should act like shotgun shot, right? I DO NOT play this sport, so I need help understanding it. Could you, Cary, please, answer the following questions:

*Can you clarify what breaks the balloon?

*Why does expert Cal repeated refer to a "pattern" of black powder, if that is not the truth?
Thank you,
Shawn

I don't know what's so hard to understand about what I said. Of course it is the unburned and still burning particles of the "F" black powder that breaks the balloon targets.

I explained in detail about the target set up I used to see the pattern of the black powder so I could see where I was hitting. How could you not understand that?

My whole point is that a shotgun shell has a load of powder and a load of shot. It's the shot that makes the pattern in a shotgun shell. Using the typing paper sheets attached to my target area let me see exactly how the black powder was patterning. It does not stay together like a load of steel or lead shot does. There is a lot of resistance just by the air it's going through. This makes it spread out.

It just does not make the same nice pattern as a shotgun shell makes with the lead or steel shot. Why can't you understand that? You want to argue about what someone said in a movie clip. I did the actual testing to see the pattern that a .45 cal blank made on paper.

When the blank is fired, of course the powder spreads out. Is it like the pattern of a shotgun shell, no it is not.

When I shoot inside, I can also see the amount of unburned particles laying around the floor. The powder collects around the base boards at the walls. I've had fires flare up if I don't keep the powder swept up about every ten shots or so. It just flares up and goes out, doesn't stay lit long enough to catch anything else on fire.

I've tried to explain this to the best of my knowledge, if some of you want to keep questioning me or arguing that I'm wrong, then I give up. I can't explain it any more that I already have two or three times now. Either believe me or not, I don't care any more. I'm not going to argue with you fast draw experts.

Hagler · Post by **Hagler** » Sun Jul 18, 2010 11:35 pm

Cary,

Thank you for that explanation. I AM NOT the expert, and I am not trying to ruffle any feathers, or call anyone a liar. I realize that these blanks DO NOT contain any lead or steel shot, so, per my original post, the powder is acting like the shot in a shotgun shell. I was having a problem understanding how you could say:

As for your comment how the excess black powder acts like the shot charge in a shotgun shell, you are wrong there.

...and then say:

When I was first learning and shooting at a balloon target, the hardest thing was that since I was firing blanks, I could not see where I was hitting to correct myself. What I did was make a big target board with my balloon target in the middle. I screwed report clips to the board all around the balloon target. I could then place sheets of typing paper in those clips around the target. This let me see where my powder particles were hitting when I wasn't hitting the balloon. I would just change to a new piece of unmarked paper for the next shot.

What I found was that I was shooting low most of the time. As I said before when you are doing fast draw, you have a tendency to fire too soon before your gun is up level and pointed at the target. So, having done this, I'm pretty familiar with what kind of pattern you get from the blanks. I stand by what I reprinted in bold above. You don't get as much spread as you would with a shotgun shell. You have to be on the target for that balloon to break.

Again, thank you for restating your explaination in more direct terms.

Shawn

Buffboy · Post by **Buffboy** » Sun Jul 18, 2010 11:59 pm

My father's best man, the man that taught me reloading and quite a bit about shooting, had a brace of pre-war Colts similarly modified for fast draw. One was for a conventional draw and one was a fanner. His were done back in the late 50s. Neither had any aluminum parts, both were safe to fire with live ammo though they weren't often because of the enlargements of the bolt and cylinder notch to keep them in time at speed. He told me even with the modifications they required constant attention to keep running. He told me Rugers were much better firearms for such but he never modded any for it as he'd drifted away from that competition (or it drifted away from him, it became too far flung to continue to compete) and into trap. Sadly, two of his guns I didn't get to shoot before his death back in the mid 80s. I don't know what happened to them. Now they would cause great twitching among Colt collectors.

Welcome Cary

Doc Hudson · Post by **Doc Hudson** » Mon Jul 19, 2010 1:25 am

I've seen worse!

At one time Thad' Scott's Fine Guns had a Colt SAA that had been used as a bandmaster's baton in some circus or wild west show.

The poor old hogleg had really garish Tiffany Grips and was fully engraved and gold plated. To add insult to injury, there were a couple of dozen big old fake jewels in various bright colors stuck on the barrel and frame. It was bloody godawful!!!

The very best one could call that abomination is an abortion of decency!

That tarted up quick-draw toy ain't got nothing on that old bandmaster's hogleg.

All that Ruger needs is a new baarrel and it will be ready to rock and roll with live ammo.