BLR Extraction

[Hawkins]

Howdy! Question about my Belgian BLR .308: has anyone ever run into a problem with difficult extraction on one of these? I've had the gun for a while, though never shot it a lot, and it always seemed like the lever was a little harder to work after firing than it should have been (never a problem when working it empty). This would occur with various factory loads and handloads. Then one day I tried it with some Winchester 180s, and I had to take the gun from my shoulder and yank the lever open. Sent the ammo to Winchester for testing, but they said it was within SAAMI specs.

A good 'smith has looked over the rifle but can find nothing wrong: go gauge goes, no-go gauge doesn't, no odd marks on the brass to indicate something wrong with the chamber. The only thing he noted was that the primers appeared to be slightly flatter than normal after firing, but again, the headspace looks OK. Any suggestions?

Thanks,

Hawkins

[Tycer]

Have you slugged the bore?
Is there any way the bolt locking lugs are getting hung up after being forced to the rear?
Could you notch or turn the rim off a 308 to see if the bolt was still hard to open without the extractor attached to the case? It would take a rod to remove the case, but that's easier than trying to remove a BLR extractor.

[Hawkins]

Have you slugged the bore?
Is there any way the bolt locking lugs are getting hung up after being forced to the rear?
Could you notch or turn the rim off a 308 to see if the bolt was still hard to open without the extractor attached to the case? It would take a rod to remove the case, but that's easier than trying to remove a BLR extractor.

Tycer,

Thank you for the suggestions. I see what you're getting at on the last two points, but what would I learn from slugging the bore? Are you thinking a tight spot in the barrel might raise pressures?

Thanks again,

Hawkins

[Bruce]

Hawkins,

Has the rifle ever been taken apart? If so, the timing might be out of order. A close up picture of the closed bolt (head area) would help. If no picture, can you insert a feeler gauge (what size?) between the back of the bolt head and bolt body with the action closed?

A rough or oily chamber could cause the condition, but you state the fired brass shows no obivous signs and the gunsmith should have caught that.

Two other way off possibilities. Fire it and before trying to work the lever, try cocking the hammer to see if it is locked up. Another is to fire it and before working the lever, remove the magazine and then try to work the lever.

I am leaning towards the timing being off. The BLR is a very complicated rifle to take apart and reassemble correctly.

BTW, we are almost neighbors. I am from Mayo and am glad to see you posting.

[Tycer]

A friend got a Browning A-bolt with a 7mm bore barrel chambered and marked 30-06.

[Lawyer Daggit]

Are you firing hot loads?

The extraction on BLR's is nothing like bolt action extraction and cases that have fired hot loads will often stick.

[Hawkins]

Thanks for all the suggestions so far. To answer a couple of questions:

Daggit: No, the loads were not hot. All my handloads were very middle of the road. The loads I had the most trouble with were generic Winchester 180 grains. It took true grit to open the lever when I fired those.

Bruce: The rifle has been taken apart and cleaned by the gunsmith that's working on it now, but he's taken apart a bunch of them before, and it was giving the problem before that. So unless somebody else took it apart and put it back together wrong in the dim, dark past, and my guy made the same mistake when he reassembled it, that shouldn't be the problem. Gunsmith still has the rifle at the moment, so no pics right way, but I'll pass along the suggestion about the feeler gauge, along with everything else. I shoot at Fort White all the time, you ever get over this way?

Thanks again, if anyone else has some thoughts I'd be glad to hear them, open to all possibilities at this point.

Hawkins

[Pete44ru]

FWIW - Browning BAR & BLR's, and Belgian BLR's in particular, have long been documented as having "tight" chambers (SAAMI minimum).

In fact, when reloading for them, special "Small Base Die Sets" are advised.

From the RCBS.com FAQ section:

Q. I see a Small Base Die Set listed for my caliber. Do I need these or should I buy a Full Length Die Set or Neck Die Set? How does each set differ?

A. The Small Base Die set is intended for use for ammunition to be used in auto, semi-auto, and lever action rifles so that the loaded round chambers and extracts easily. The Small Base Sizer Die sizes the case from the shoulder to the head of the case a couple of thousandths smaller than a Full Length Sizer Die. In certain calibers it also sets the shoulder of the case back a thousandth or two more than the Full Length Sizer Die. The Full Length Die Set or Neck Die Set is not normally recommended for ammo to be used in auto, semi-auto, or lever action rifles. The Full Length Die set is recommended for ammunition used in bolt action rifles, particularly for ammunition to be used for hunting. The Neck Die Set can also be used to produce ammunition for use in bolt action rifles. The Neck Sizer Die sizes only the neck of the case so it will hold the bullet firmly. It does not size the body of the case nor does it set the shoulder back. Neck sized cases will usually chamber for three or more firings, depending on the powder charge and chamber dimensions. However, over a period of time, a slight drag will be noticed when the bolt is locked. At this point, cases will need to be full length sized and the shoulder set back so they will chamber and extract easily.

Your rifle is most likely one with a minimum spec chamber, which (when combined with anything other than minimum spec ammo) can give extraction difficulty.

Some users have even gone as far as to have a gunsmith slightly rechamber their barrels.

.

[Bruce]

Pete is dead on about the chambers and the use of small base die set. It could also be a rough chamber that needs to be polished (honed) a little to remove chatter marks. If you have owned the rifle since NIB and it has always had this problem with factory ammo, I would guess a rough or too tight chamber and Pete's idea to have it slightly rechambered (reamed) is a good idea. Usually a rough chamber will show marks on the fired brass and this does not seem to be your issue, but it may be too tight as he suggests.

Have you tried rechambering a fired round to see if it is too tight and still has sticky extraction?

I don't know which gunsmith you are using, but when you get it back - if you can insert a feeler guage behind the bolt head - it is probably out of time. He probably has the Gun Digest Book of "Firearms Assembly/Disassembly - Part IV: Center Fire Rifles "2nd Edition". It covers the early BLR fairly well.

I almost joined the (a) private FT. White shooting club when I was still working and living in Lake City. Once I retired and moved home, we have a small range at our gun store and thousands of acres in the hunt club where we can shoot. I try not to cross the Suwannee River anymore than I have to, but will probably go to the Lake City gun show tomorrow.

[Hawkins]

Thanks again for all the ideas. I'll forward them on to my 'smith and see if we can come up with a solution. If we figure out anything, I'll post here, to add to the collective wisdom.

Bruce: Which store do you work at? Always happy to find a gun store I haven't visited before!

Thanks!

Hawkins

[Bruce]

When I wrote "our gun store", I was referring to the local gun store that I frequent - it is not mine and while I have helped out a little, I don't work there. It is Daddy's Gun Shop in Mayo. One of the best, if not the best in north Florida. Lot's of variety and the owner is a very good gunsmith, friendly and above all - he is honest. He keeps a good inventory of new and used and is somewhat a levergun guy himself. His prices are always fair and he gives a good value on trades. He is open Monday through Saturday, 8-6. The place is out in the woods and you will need directions if you plan to go there.

[blackhawk44]

I am down to three BLR's at the moment and have played with a number of others over the years. Most, if not all, BLR's seem to have their chambers cut toward the minimum, but I have never once had to resort to small base dies for handloading for any of them. Should your gunsmith have access to a borescope, it might be nice to check for a smoothly cut chamber, free of tool marks (the "factory" load issue). A very light polish could help. You can have the headspace checked, but I doubt that's a problem. Since factory ammo chambers freely and the action locks properly, I cannot imagine why you would ever think to take a reamer and change its dimensions to oversized.

In 35 year of handloading for the BLR, I have found that it prefers powders toward the slower end of the spectrum for that cartridge. These offer a longer arc to peak pressure rather than a sharp spike. Even medium loads of faster powders exhibit more strenuous extraction while offering much lower velocities, helping confirm that its an issue of powder characteristics rather than peak pressure. A chronograph is the only commonly available tool that I know of that can help you sort these things out properly.

Back to sizing, your BLR wants its brass sized to fit ITS chamber, not your other .308, and it will not tolerate over length brass. Keep it trimmed. All I can state is what has worked for me and others I know. Best of luck.