Designing a new modern Lever gun ?

[tomtex]

You're the designer! Set your goals for this new lever rifle ,from end to end? Your experience and ideals should help manufactures with future lever guns. Show pictures if you can, talk of your problems with lever guns what needs to be-don, what should change,types of new ammo you want to use , use in bad weather, and so on.

[O.S.O.K.]

Browning BLR, Ruger levergun... both eliminate the tubular mag and use a stronger action.

[gamekeeper]

I would not wish to change the look of Leverguns as we know and love them, so I can't envisage a really radical design.

So I would just get Ruger, being as they have all the components, to make the 96 in .22 Hornet, it would be a piece of cake to produce.

[Pisgah]

Let's see...

-- the rotary mag of the Savage 99
-- the front-end bolt lock-up of the BLR
-- the ease of disassembly of the Marlin 336
-- in a one-piece stock, a la the Win. 88, with a free-float barrel

It's a start.

[AJMD429]

Make the Ruger of even stronger steel, in .454 Casull at the top end ( or .500 S&W) and down to .22 Hornet, .32-20, etc.
But - get rid of the barrel band and free-float the barrel.

[J Miller]

I would not wish to change the look of Leverguns as we know and love them, so I can't envisage a really radical design.

<snip>

I'm afraid I agree with game keeper. I really don't want a "modern" styled lever gun. The Savage 99 was The Winchester 1894 and Marlins 1893 contemporary yet it looks as modern as the Browning BLR and Winchester Mdl 88. But as modern as it looks, it has a aura of it's own.

To me a lever action rifle design was chiseled in concrete with the original two piece stocks and tubular magazine. And as good or great as they are, I have no interest in the BLRs or 88s or the Saecos, they do nothing for me.

To design a modern lever gun, I'd have to go back to past and recreate an original with modern strong steels and heat treating.
But retaining the craftsmanship of the past.
Perhaps if I must, an updated Savage 99. Or ... maybe not.

I guess I'm a stick in the mud.

Joe

[Don McDowell]

As far as I can tell the solid hammer steel receivered BLR 81's are the epitomy of a "modern" levergun. The things still retain enough of JMB's design lines, yet use the rotating bolt head and geared bolt drive.
The Savage 99 is just an updated 95, trace its roots back to introduction the same time as the Winchester 94.
The Winchester 88 was a levergun trying to mascarade as a bolt gun and consequently doesn't have the "levergun" feel, but has the lever under neath in place of the bolt handle on the side and you still can't take the bolt out to clean from the chamber.
Rugers 96's , just a loose knock off of the Savage, only not as finely built and tuned.

[tomtex]

OP,Try for an Evolution in-design,,look at box magazines,short-lever cycle time,type of action design, type of sights,type of ammo, type of gun metal , type of stock & if any stock compartment for item's, type of finish, Wt & LT. and what you would expect to pay for it .

[KWK]

The 99 takes care of any pointy bullet cartridge I'd need.

Among the short range cartridges, the .44-40 can do what I need; the .44 Russian in smokeless would be simpler to reload and about the same power, though. The 1892 is overkill here, so perhaps it could simply be lightened further. Alternately, a Colt Burgess variant with the trimmed down Light Carbine receiver would be nice for the .44-40, but the originals are said to be 1) prone to breaking firing pins and 2) jamming, so fix up those items. Also, replace that sliding loading gate with the simpler Winchester style. I have to wonder if the design would have been better with an open top, more like on the earlier Burgess and Kennedy. Disassembly might be simpler with a striker instead of the hammer.

[bdhold]

looks of a '73
strength of an '86
weight of a '92

[Marlin32]

Cripes, Get rid of that gawl durn push button safety!!!!

[tomtex]

Make the Ruger of even stronger steel, in .454 Casull at the top end ( or .500 S&W) and down to .22 Hornet, .32-20, etc.
But - get rid of the barrel band and free-float the barrel.

How hard would that be ? do you thank they should have a new design ?

[tomtex]

I thank its time for box magazine,, using modern ammo with a pointed tip, we have this in our hand guns now ,this is an big advancement, and will give us a choise in lever rifles and ammo. Old type or modern your choice?

[AJMD429]

If I just had to stick with a tubular magazine, I'd want it to detach quickly without unloading it, the ability to store it loaded, and to load it when not in the gun.

Still, I like the 'pointy bullet advantage' of the box magazines, as well, even though most of my shooting is flat-nose bullets in straight-wall cases. It IS nice to be able to remove and reinstall a magazine quickly though, for those of us not in situations where we can leave a gun loaded when in vehicles, or on public roads, etc.

[tman]

pre 1925 winchester 94 src chambered for the .356 wcf. perfection

[TedH]

Modern and leverguns don't really go together for me. Guess that's why I've never been real fond of the BLR. There are plenty of old designs to keep me happy.

[slimster]

Heck, I'd forego any new ones if they'd just bring back all the old ones like they use'ta be!

[Griff]

Modern and leverguns don't really go together for me. Guess that's why I've never been real fond of the BLR. There are plenty of old designs to keep me happy.

+1
Or the '99, the 88 & whatever Ruger called theirs (96?). Even the '95 holds no allure for me.

It's sorta like cross-dressin'; I gather that some fellars think it's the cat's meow... but, I just don't understand. Must be wired different to appreciate it, I guess.

[Lobo]

Hi All,

How about a Marlin 336 with a titanium action chambered in "35 Marlin" shooting a 220 grain FN at 2300 fps ??

[AJMD429]

Make the Ruger of even stronger steel, in .454 Casull at the top end ( or .500 S&W) and down to .22 Hornet, .32-20, etc.
But - get rid of the barrel band and free-float the barrel.

How hard that be ? do you thank they should have a new design ?

Dunno. The Ruger 96 handles the fairly-big-diameter, fairly-high-pressure .44 Magnum quite nicely, so I figure without metallurgy/design changes (but with removal of the barrel-band and free-floated-barrel stock mounting) it could handle as is many of my favorite cartridges:

• .480 Ruger - hey - Ruger surely should be ok with that, right...?
  .45 Colt (barely any design changes, I think; maybe just re-barreling and slightly opening the magazine lips)
  .44-40 (even less needs done)
  .38-40 Win
  .357-44 Bain & Davis
  .357 Magnum
  .32-20 (or .32 H&R, .327 Fed)
  .218 Bee
  .22 Hornet (if not, see below)

Add just a little or some more length to the same basic design (lever-throw is already VERY short), and maybe:

• .500 Linebaugh
  .475 Linebaugh
  .357 Maximum
  .22 Hornet

Now, if the design is as similar to the Savage as it looks, and the Savage handles bottleneck, high-pressure rounds, add both length and metallurgy (or design change if needed) for strength to the same basic design, and maybe:

• .500 S&W
  .454 Casull
  7.62x39 Russian
  .222 Remington (or .223, depending on practical length attainable)
  .12 Remington

OF course it was already made in the rimfires:

• .22 WMR
  .22 LR
  .17 HMR

so maybe a 5mm Rimfire, even, since they're bringing that round back into production.

As for "why not the Savage" - I dislike the two-piece stock of the Savage - one-piece stocks allow quicker wood and metal separation for fell-in-the-swamp or after-the-downpour cleaning, and free-floating of the barrel.

[adirondakjack]

Well funny that you ask. I've been lucky enough to be involved in what has been called the most important improvements to the Marlin 1894 recently. Specifically, some major slicking up and tuning, and some minor surgery to the ears on the bolt face and to the carrier's "top deck", creating a controlled, angle feed marlin that is absolutely slick, and will not, repeat, will not hitch, bobble, choke or jam, period. A .38 spl. Marlin I did for a young CAS shooter is likely the slickest Marlin ever, and will feed even when turned on it's right side and levered very slowly. You can't feel rounds cycle through the gun, period. Now Marlin will never adopt this because it means hand fitting parts, not simply tossing em in a box, shaking it, and expecting a rifle to assemble iteself.

[.45colt]

All I can see is a slightly updated Savage 99,with the rotary mag and in takedown with several extra barrels available. the 99 was a space age rifle when it was introduced. I love the look on peoples faces when You show them how to use the takedown feature.less than 5 seconds later it is apart slick as a whistle. then I tell them this one was made in 1915. ....

[willygene]

66 ,73, 92, 94 or savage 99 you can't fix perfection and more modern don't mean more better if you want multi rounds and pointed bullets removable mag's and such get an auto rifle don't mess with good gun's nuff said.

[Old Ironsights]

Modern and leverguns don't really go together for me. Guess that's why I've never been real fond of the BLR. There are plenty of old designs to keep me happy.

+1
Or the '99, the 88 & whatever Ruger called theirs (96?). Even the '95 holds no allure for me.

It's sorta like cross-dressin'; I gather that some fellars think it's the cat's meow... but, I just don't understand. Must be wired different to appreciate it, I guess.

Honestly, I'm with a bunch of folks here... the '99 - especially in the post '65 variant C (magazine) version, holds the most potential both asthetically and mechanically for me.

I recently held a Win 88 and instantly hated it... it pointed/carried like a log - unlike the Rugers that were patterned after it. Total Bleah.

This ties into my "what would you" thread.

Let me build a '99C with modern steels (incuding stainless) and variable size magazines (4, 10, 20, etc...) and I can almost replace most Gas Gun EBRs (like the FN/G3/Galil/AR10/Saiga/etc...), as well as fill 90+% of global Hunting needs (any .308 based case...) ... especially if you work in a rotating BLR type bolt for "accuracy sake".

I never cottoned to the BLR's gear-driven system, nor its' "let's turn a bolt into a lever" ideology.

The (18)'99 is Pure Lever. Different from a Tube Fed Win or Marlin of the same vintage, but Pure Lever none the less. Just update it a bit and it fits more with the "modern" magazine-fed reality than a 92/94/95 ever will...

[hammerman]

Can you really improve on John Browning's designs?? I didn't know they even made anything but Winchesters.


Hey tman, I've got kind of what you're looking for. I had a top eject 375 and put a saddle ring on, along with a 356 barrel. Now that's my kind of gun.

[tomtex]

Well funny that you ask. I've been lucky enough to be involved in what has been called the most important improvements to the Marlin 1894 recently. Specifically, some major slicking up and tuning, and some minor surgery to the ears on the bolt face and to the carrier's "top deck", creating a controlled, angle feed marlin that is absolutely slick, and will not, repeat, will not hitch, bobble, choke or jam, period. A .38 spl. Marlin I did for a young CAS shooter is likely the slickest Marlin ever, and will feed even when turned on it's right side and levered very slowly. You can't feel rounds cycle through the gun, period. Now Marlin will never adopt this because it means hand fitting parts, not simply tossing em in a box, shaking it, and expecting a rifle to assemble iteself.

Will you tell us more about this wonder marlin ?

[Old Ironsights]

Can you really improve on John Browning's designs??

Nope. Can't "improve" on them, just go in a different, more "forward looking" direction... just like Arthur Savage did...

[tman]

Can you really improve on John Browning's designs?? I didn't know they even made anything but Winchesters.


Hey tman, I've got kind of what you're looking for. I had a top eject 375 and put a saddle ring on, along with a 356 barrel. Now that's my kind of gun.

sounds sweet. like your set up . my angle eject pre safety bigbore .356wcf. has saddle ring butt and forestock. haven't added a saddle ring as of yet.

[Streetstar]

I would not wish to change the look of Leverguns as we know and love them, so I can't envisage a really radical design.

<snip>

I'm afraid I agree with game keeper. I really don't want a "modern" styled lever gun.
I guess I'm a stick in the mud.

Joe

I'm with Game Keeper and Joe Miller on this one (see Joe, we can agree on something occasionally - ) -- I think it would be hard to produce a "modern" levergun that would have more appeal than what is already out there.

I like the various things Marlin has been doing with the Guide Gun variants, but those are still based on the same 115 year old design. As for the rest, there is enough variety and capability in the old guns and calibers to keep me busy for the rest of my life. I dont want a super long range lever rifle or a dedicated "varmint" lever rifle , because the bolt gun selection out there has that spectrum covered adequately, and a lot of that type of shooting is done either prone or at the bench -- both areas that are weaknesses for lever guns.

However, a Winchester 1895 in .243 would be pretty cool, but .25-06 would make more sense due to cartridge length considerations

[adirondakjack]

Well funny that you ask. I've been lucky enough to be involved in what has been called the most important improvements to the Marlin 1894 recently. Specifically, some major slicking up and tuning, and some minor surgery to the ears on the bolt face and to the carrier's "top deck", creating a controlled, angle feed marlin that is absolutely slick, and will not, repeat, will not hitch, bobble, choke or jam, period. A .38 spl. Marlin I did for a young CAS shooter is likely the slickest Marlin ever, and will feed even when turned on it's right side and levered very slowly. You can't feel rounds cycle through the gun, period. Now Marlin will never adopt this because it means hand fitting parts, not simply tossing em in a box, shaking it, and expecting a rifle to assemble iteself.

Will you tell us more about this wonder marlin ?

It's a set of modifications pioneered by a fellow by the name of Mike Hill. His SASS alias is "Widowmaker Hill" aka "Widder". In truth, though Widder came up with the original "widdermatic" concept, it has taken on a "design by committee" life all its own, about five amateur gunsmiths, including yours truely have been involved, conferencing by phone and email, sending pics back and forth, etc. Most of us have never met.

Hre's the list of mods (I'll probably forget something):

Chamber rear edge chamfered
Mag tube bore rear edge chamfered.
Mag tube follower upgraded to stainless steel, mag tube spring replaced with stainless, cut to 3" longer than the mag tube when relaxed.
one piece firing pin and severely lightened mainspring are installed.
Potential "marlin jam" eliminated by radiusing the snail cam on the lever.
Entire rifle "slicked up" for light, smooth operation.
Ejector and extractor tuned for rearward ejection of empties.
The hammer and the cocking nub on the bolt are reprofiled to limit hammer "bump" to a few thousanths.
(now we get to the good stuff).
The top deck of the carrier is re-cut to allow an angle feed, The rounds present to to the bolt axis butt end down, nose high, so that a modified bolt can engage the exractor groove, trapping the rim as the case slides up and forward ahead of the bolt, in a manner very like the Mauser controlled feed. In on varient I thought up, two cartridge stops are cut into the carrier top deck, allowing vastly dissimilar OAL rounds (.44 russian and magnum, or Cowboy .45 Special and Long Colt) to feed, mix or match, in the same rifle.
The carrier is cut for optimal timing, no drag, no hitches, either top or bottom of the carrier (or both) are modified. All "working" surfaces of the carrier are stoned to a mirror finish (or real close).

The bolt face "ears" are modified so that the lower "ears" form the controlled feed "lips", and the extractor is given a "sharp claw" treatment, while the extractor spring tension is reduced about 50%. The case rim slips up along the bolt face as the bolt advances, trapped by the extractor, for extremely positive and smooth feeding. At no time in the cycle is a round presented in line with the bore, un-secured, so that it might get sideways and catch on the way into the chamber, or simply fall out the ejection port, as sometimes happens to stock marlins in fast CAS use. By the time the round is fully visible in the port, the rim is totally captive, and the bullet has begun to enter the chamber. These rifles will cycle when the port is facing down, even when done very slowy. the rounds simply cannto get loose during transit from the carrier to the chamber.
Bolt face "ears" stoned to near mirror finish.

When run at normal or fast speed, you literally cannot feel a round move through the gun. With good earplugs in, so you can't hear the mag tube follower click, you might think the gun was empty, when in fact a round HAS chambered.

I took a brand new .357 CB-L Marlin that was so stiff it reminded me of a bumper jack, slicked it up, did all the above mods, including cutting the carrier for a dedicated use with .38s using 125 grain bullets, controlled, angle feed, etc, and folks repeatedly told me it was the slickest marlin ever seen in CAS use, and NOBODY who has tried it, fast or slow, has been able to produce a hiccup.

Slick as a whistle, controlled, angle feed, extractor and ejector tuned to toss brass behind the shooter (not ahead of a common firing line where it cannot be retrieved, and is thus lost)

What's not to like?

Now MARLIN will never do the above, because the hand work to custom fit parts would be cost prohibitive. You can't simply make such a carrier that will drop in, as the tolerances between rifles prohibit that when such a high state of timing is involved. Each bit has to be "finnessed" to get optimum performance, much like blueprinting an engine.

Look at:
http://marauder.homestead.com/rifles.html
click on the "widdermatic" amd WiddermAJik" links.

[tomtex]

Well funny that you ask. I've been lucky enough to be involved in what has been called the most important improvements to the Marlin 1894 recently. Specifically, some major slicking up and tuning, and some minor surgery to the ears on the bolt face and to the carrier's "top deck", creating a controlled, angle feed marlin that is absolutely slick, and will not, repeat, will not hitch, bobble, choke or jam, period. A .38 spl. Marlin I did for a young CAS shooter is likely the slickest Marlin ever, and will feed even when turned on it's right side and levered very slowly. You can't feel rounds cycle through the gun, period. Now Marlin will never adopt this because it means hand fitting parts, not simply tossing em in a box, shaking it, and expecting a rifle to assemble iteself.

Will you tell us more about this wonder marlin ?

It's a set of modifications pioneered by a fellow by the name of Mike Hill. His SASS alias is "Widowmaker Hill" aka "Widder". In truth, though Widder came up with the original "widdermatic" concept, it has taken on a "design by committee" life all its own, about five amateur gunsmiths, including yours truely have been involved, conferencing by phone and email, sending pics back and forth, etc. Most of us have never met.

Hre's the list of mods (I'll probably forget something):

Chamber rear edge chamfered
Mag tube bore rear edge chamfered.
Mag tube follower upgraded to stainless steel, mag tube spring replaced with stainless, cut to 3" longer than the mag tube when relaxed.
one piece firing pin and severely lightened mainspring are installed.
Potential "marlin jam" eliminated by radiusing the snail cam on the lever.
Entire rifle "slicked up" for light, smooth operation.
Ejector and extractor tuned for rearward ejection of empties.
The hammer and the cocking nub on the bolt are reprofiled to limit hammer "bump" to a few thousanths.
(now we get to the good stuff).
The top deck of the carrier is re-cut to allow an angle feed, The rounds present to to the bolt axis butt end down, nose high, so that a modified bolt can engage the exractor groove, trapping the rim as the case slides up and forward ahead of the bolt, in a manner very like the Mauser controlled feed. In on varient I thought up, two cartridge stops are cut into the carrier top deck, allowing vastly dissimilar OAL rounds (.44 russian and magnum, or Cowboy .45 Special and Long Colt) to feed, mix or match, in the same rifle.
The carrier is cut for optimal timing, no drag, no hitches, either top or bottom of the carrier (or both) are modified. All "working" surfaces of the carrier are stoned to a mirror finish (or real close).

The bolt face "ears" are modified so that the lower "ears" form the controlled feed "lips", and the extractor is given a "sharp claw" treatment, while the extractor spring tension is reduced about 50%. The case rim slips up along the bolt face as the bolt advances, trapped by the extractor, for extremely positive and smooth feeding. At no time in the cycle is a round presented in line with the bore, un-secured, so that it might get sideways and catch on the way into the chamber, or simply fall out the ejection port, as sometimes happens to stock marlins in fast CAS use. By the time the round is fully visible in the port, the rim is totally captive, and the bullet has begun to enter the chamber. These rifles will cycle when the port is facing down, even when done very slowy. the rounds simply cannto get loose during transit from the carrier to the chamber.
Bolt face "ears" stoned to near mirror finish.

When run at normal or fast speed, you literally cannot feel a round move through the gun. With good earplugs in, so you can't hear the mag tube follower click, you might think the gun was empty, when in fact a round HAS chambered.

I took a brand new .357 CB-L Marlin that was so stiff it reminded me of a bumper jack, slicked it up, did all the above mods, including cutting the carrier for a dedicated use with .38s using 125 grain bullets, controlled, angle feed, etc, and folks repeatedly told me it was the slickest marlin ever seen in CAS use, and NOBODY who has tried it, fast or slow, has been able to produce a hiccup.

Slick as a whistle, controlled, angle feed, extractor and ejector tuned to toss brass behind the shooter (not ahead of a common firing line where it cannot be retrieved, and is thus lost)

What's not to like?

Now MARLIN will never do the above, because the hand work to custom fit parts would be cost prohibitive. You can't simply make such a carrier that will drop in, as the tolerances between rifles prohibit that when such a high state of timing is involved. Each bit has to be "finnessed" to get optimum performance, much like blueprinting an engine.

Look at:
http://marauder.homestead.com/rifles.html
click on the "widdermatic" amd WiddermAJik" links.

Now that is an advancement in design for Marlin, wonder what it costs ?

[Jaguarundi]

Just as said earlier JMB got it right.Just improve the machining and metallurgy.Please have a half cock hammer and no freak'n lawyer safeties.But these are just musings.Quality of recent(<30 years) mass produced firearms of former household brand names has went to H$$$.I just want seamless metal/wood fit and naked eye flawless polish(no millmarks,no pitts,no ripples and no rolled edges etc)and blue job.No freaking aluminium or plastic please.Miruko clone's come close but are clowned by the hammer and safety deal.

[Fiddler]

Like it or not, most levergun owners are not iron-sight "purists". My Marlin 39A has worn a scope since 1978.
Which brings me to the point of this post. It seems to me that the scope base setup on 39A's is basically an afterthought. Not stable or rigid enough to suit me.
I'd like to see the receiver top on the Marlin 39A changed somehow to provide a more secure scope mount.
I'd also like to see the tube magazine moved from under the barrel and into the buttstock.
True, the result of these changes might not be considered a 39A anymore, but I feel it would be an improved rifle.

[adirondakjack]

Well funny that you ask. I've been lucky enough to be involved in what has been called the most important improvements to the Marlin 1894 recently. Specifically, some major slicking up and tuning, and some minor surgery to the ears on the bolt face and to the carrier's "top deck", creating a controlled, angle feed marlin that is absolutely slick, and will not, repeat, will not hitch, bobble, choke or jam, period. A .38 spl. Marlin I did for a young CAS shooter is likely the slickest Marlin ever, and will feed even when turned on it's right side and levered very slowly. You can't feel rounds cycle through the gun, period. Now Marlin will never adopt this because it means hand fitting parts, not simply tossing em in a box, shaking it, and expecting a rifle to assemble iteself.

Will you tell us more about this wonder marlin ?

It's a set of modifications pioneered by a fellow by the name of Mike Hill. His SASS alias is "Widowmaker Hill" aka "Widder". In truth, though Widder came up with the original "widdermatic" concept, it has taken on a "design by committee" life all its own, about five amateur gunsmiths, including yours truely have been involved, conferencing by phone and email, sending pics back and forth, etc. Most of us have never met.

Hre's the list of mods (I'll probably forget something):

Chamber rear edge chamfered
Mag tube bore rear edge chamfered.
Mag tube follower upgraded to stainless steel, mag tube spring replaced with stainless, cut to 3" longer than the mag tube when relaxed.
one piece firing pin and severely lightened mainspring are installed.
Potential "marlin jam" eliminated by radiusing the snail cam on the lever.
Entire rifle "slicked up" for light, smooth operation.
Ejector and extractor tuned for rearward ejection of empties.
The hammer and the cocking nub on the bolt are reprofiled to limit hammer "bump" to a few thousanths.
(now we get to the good stuff).
The top deck of the carrier is re-cut to allow an angle feed, The rounds present to to the bolt axis butt end down, nose high, so that a modified bolt can engage the exractor groove, trapping the rim as the case slides up and forward ahead of the bolt, in a manner very like the Mauser controlled feed. In on varient I thought up, two cartridge stops are cut into the carrier top deck, allowing vastly dissimilar OAL rounds (.44 russian and magnum, or Cowboy .45 Special and Long Colt) to feed, mix or match, in the same rifle.
The carrier is cut for optimal timing, no drag, no hitches, either top or bottom of the carrier (or both) are modified. All "working" surfaces of the carrier are stoned to a mirror finish (or real close).

The bolt face "ears" are modified so that the lower "ears" form the controlled feed "lips", and the extractor is given a "sharp claw" treatment, while the extractor spring tension is reduced about 50%. The case rim slips up along the bolt face as the bolt advances, trapped by the extractor, for extremely positive and smooth feeding. At no time in the cycle is a round presented in line with the bore, un-secured, so that it might get sideways and catch on the way into the chamber, or simply fall out the ejection port, as sometimes happens to stock marlins in fast CAS use. By the time the round is fully visible in the port, the rim is totally captive, and the bullet has begun to enter the chamber. These rifles will cycle when the port is facing down, even when done very slowy. the rounds simply cannto get loose during transit from the carrier to the chamber.
Bolt face "ears" stoned to near mirror finish.

When run at normal or fast speed, you literally cannot feel a round move through the gun. With good earplugs in, so you can't hear the mag tube follower click, you might think the gun was empty, when in fact a round HAS chambered.

I took a brand new .357 CB-L Marlin that was so stiff it reminded me of a bumper jack, slicked it up, did all the above mods, including cutting the carrier for a dedicated use with .38s using 125 grain bullets, controlled, angle feed, etc, and folks repeatedly told me it was the slickest marlin ever seen in CAS use, and NOBODY who has tried it, fast or slow, has been able to produce a hiccup.

Slick as a whistle, controlled, angle feed, extractor and ejector tuned to toss brass behind the shooter (not ahead of a common firing line where it cannot be retrieved, and is thus lost)

What's not to like?

Now MARLIN will never do the above, because the hand work to custom fit parts would be cost prohibitive. You can't simply make such a carrier that will drop in, as the tolerances between rifles prohibit that when such a high state of timing is involved. Each bit has to be "finnessed" to get optimum performance, much like blueprinting an engine.

Look at:
http://marauder.homestead.com/rifles.html
click on the "widdermatic" amd WiddermAJik" links.

Now that is an advancement in design for Marlin, wonder what it costs ?

Widder and myself share an odd notion that this knowledge ought not be reserved to the gunsmith cult, but instead ought to be spread among advanced kitchen table gun butchers. So we're busy teaching folks HOW to do this, instead of doing it for em. That first .38 rifle I did started out new, unfired, and took about 5 or 6 hours, front to back. I am doing another .45, starting with a well-slicked rifle and doing the feed mods to make it run a very long .45 Webley bullet in Cowboy .45 Special cases, and it ought to take 3 hours.

I gave a little "class" at a state CAS shoot this past weekend, showed 8 people how it was done, disassembled a rifle to show the parts, put it back together and handed it around so folks could cycle rounds through it..... This info was meant to suppliment the online info. We also support folks by taking phone calls to help em work through bugs.... it truely is NOT about the money. It's about making the guns run really well, and teaching folks how to give em good care and feeding as "race guns"....

IF a pro gunsmith was gonna do it, and of course add a few new parts, (mag spring, follower, firing pin and mainspring)around $300 to re-work a stock rifle would be about right, including return shipping.

The method is so new, I don't know of any pro gunsmiths who have learned it and are advertizing it YET, but am told a few are playing with the tricks and getting their comfidence up with an eye toward just that. Maybe 10 or 15 amateurs have done em since last winter based on reports on the SASS WIRE forum.

[Pete44ru]

A slightly-enlarged, heat-treated, stainless steel, Marlin Model 39a ( the 39 b ?) in .17HMR and .22WMR with a silver/black lamo checkered stock set.

.

[Joel]

I dunno

I am not a wealth of Levergun history and knowledge like the rest of you

WHat about just reducing the length of lever throw?

Every lever I own, it's a mile long movement to cycle the thing.

[buckeyeshooter]

How about lengthening the Marlin 336 action 1/2 inch and thickening the action 1/4 inch. Now, you have increased the action strength to the point that you can chamber 50alaskan, 50-110, 475 turnbull, 458wm, 338wm, 300wm, 30-06, 270, 25-06 and all the other common use rifle rounds. You will still have to use gummies or round nose bullet designs but the balance and feel of the rifle will remain.

[buckeyeshooter]

I dunno

I am not a wealth of Levergun history and knowledge like the rest of you

WHat about just reducing the length of lever throw?

Every lever I own, it's a mile long movement to cycle the thing.

send it to a cowboy action gunsmith for a short stroke kit-- depending on what model you hace it could be a very easy fix.

[tomtex]

What do the posters think of lever guns chambered for 410 to 12 gage shot guns shells? Or a paradox barrel on some lever guns, (the rifling at the end of the barrel ) so it also could fire some types of shot shells , by using adrondakack"s Marlin mods , could we have Marlins that can use 45cal, 445 ,460 S&W or 444 cal 44 mag and 44 special ,or an Marlin in 45-70 , 410 that made to use both type of ammo , and not forgetting the 38, 357 , 357 long type ?

I would want a 45-70/ 410 combo ,with paradox barrel . what about APC type ammo in in lever guns

[Buck Elliott]

looks of a '73
strength of an '86
weight of a '92

Now there's a comprehensive list, that could be almost do-able...

What do the posters think of lever guns chambered for 410 to 12 gage shot guns shells? Or a paradox barrel on some lever guns, (the rifling at the end of the barrel ) so it also could fire some types of shot shells , by using adrondakack"s Marlin mods , could we have Marlins that can use 45cal, 445 ,460 S&W or 444 cal 44 mag and 44 special ,or an Marlin in 45-70 , 410 that made to use both type of ammo , and not forgetting the 38, 357 , 357 long type ?

Whoa, son... you're talking about a whole range of leverguns here. There are .410s available, and the Winchester '86 was even chambered for 28-ga., once upon a time. The grand old '87 Winchester was found in 12- & 10-ga., and the 1901 model came in 10-ga. only... The .460 S&W cartridge can give you fits, just like the .454 Casull, because of the 65,000 psi allowable chamber pressure. The .38/.357 family don't require the same size action as the bigger cartridges, so you might as well save on materials (and weight) and make something a little smaller for those.

All-in-all, the answers given so far run from serious consideration to (majority) the wildest of pipedreams, which is, I suspect, why most responders are not in the firearms design business.

[AJMD429]

How about lengthening the Marlin 336 action 1/2 inch and thickening the action 1/4 inch. Now, you have increased the action strength to the point that you can chamber 50alaskan, 50-110, 475 turnbull, 458wm, 338wm, 300wm, 30-06, 270, 25-06 and all the other common use rifle rounds. You will still have to use gummies or round nose bullet designs but the balance and feel of the rifle will remain.

Problem is the bolt-locking parts can't stand the shear force and are not at an ideal angle (which angle is needed due to the inherent mechanics of that levergun design).

Like it or not, most levergun owners are not iron-sight "purists". My Marlin 39A has worn a scope since 1978.
Which brings me to the point of this post. It seems to me that the scope base setup on 39A's is basically an afterthought. Not stable or rigid enough to suit me.
I'd like to see the receiver top on the Marlin 39A changed somehow to provide a more secure scope mount.
I'd also like to see the tube magazine moved from under the barrel and into the buttstock.
True, the result of these changes might not be considered a 39A anymore, but I feel it would be an improved rifle.

I wish ALL guns had an unobtrusive system like the 'Ruger Rings' bases (which could be improved on a bit in the process, but the concept is wonderful).

[AJMD429]

How about lengthening the Marlin 336 action 1/2 inch and thickening the action 1/4 inch. Now, you have increased the action strength to the point that you can chamber 50alaskan, 50-110, 475 turnbull, 458wm, 338wm, 300wm, 30-06, 270, 25-06 and all the other common use rifle rounds. You will still have to use gummies or round nose bullet designs but the balance and feel of the rifle will remain.

The shear force is too great on the locking bolts and the angle they need for the action to work is not condusive to that high pressure, or so I am told by those who understand gun design far more than I do.

Like it or not, most levergun owners are not iron-sight "purists". My Marlin 39A has worn a scope since 1978. Which brings me to the point of this post. It seems to me that the scope base setup on 39A's is basically an afterthought. Not stable or rigid enough to suit me. I'd like to see the receiver top on the Marlin 39A changed somehow to provide a more secure scope mount.

Yep - the Ruger Ring concept, although I'd make some minor improvements, is one I'd like to see on ALL guns.

[Jason_W]

I'll be another vote for a reintroduction of the ruger 96 with a few improvements.

1. that buttstock is unpleasant under recoil from a heavy load

2. 10 round or greater magazines for HD work

3. A few more chamberings

[Jason_W]

A rifled lever action slug gun would also be cool for levergun fans in shotgun only zones.

[BwanaDave]

Jeeze guys, I am a bit stunned. I mean really how many of you would alter the Mona Lisa's smile. Some things reach their highest state as an art form and shouldn't be tampered with in a willy nilly fashion. Would you make a coach gun out of a Purdy? Before you know it you will be adding "improvements" like day glow sights and cross bolt safeties.

A lever gun is a match of perfection of form and function crated at a golden moment in time. The design has stood the test of time and will continue to if it is respected in its pure form. Don't do to the levergun what the smartest guys in the room did to the Cadiliac.

My favorite is my original 1895 Winny in .30 US. It can do anything an open sighted gun needs to do in North America.

I also have a 1895 Marlin 45-70 that I doctored up a bit. It has aa extra fancy Treebone stock with a tung oil finish, wild west trigger and ejector, ashley sights, Ludwig safety plug, Trader Keiths sling with Pacmeyer flush mount bases. The action has been slicked up too. It is my truck gun. It is a modern lever that has had the hand work that was standard once upon a time.

Then there is the 94. What can be said, nothing carries like a 94. The thing about 94s is they come up like a fine 28 gauge. Care has to be taken not to shoot it like a shot gun, it is hard to resist.

So tell me why would you want to change them? Like they say, if it aint broke don't fix it.

[AJMD429]

What about just reducing the length of lever throw?
Every lever I own, it's a mile long movement to cycle the thing.

Sometime try a Ruger 96/22 or 96/44 - both more a 'flick' of your fingers down then up, vs. a 'throw' - a short enough throw that my thumb and that part of my wrist stay on the top tang of the gun during cycling!

Of course the longer the cartridge the longer the 'throw' is pretty much a rule, but when I open the lever fully on mine/my son's Ruger 96, Rossi 92, and Marlin 1894 (all in .44 Mag), the Ruger wins hands-down. (...er, maybe 'hands-less-down' would be better to say... )

[adirondakjack]

What about just reducing the length of lever throw?
Every lever I own, it's a mile long movement to cycle the thing.

Sometime try a Ruger 96/22 or 96/44 - both more a 'flick' of your fingers down then up, vs. a 'throw' - a short enough throw that my thumb and that part of my wrist stay on the top tang of the gun during cycling!

Of course the longer the cartridge the longer the 'throw' is pretty much a rule, but when I open the lever fully on mine/my son's Ruger 96, Rossi 92, and Marlin 1894 (all in .44 Mag), the Ruger wins hands-down. (...er, maybe 'hands-less-down' would be better to say... )

Sometimes, when running short cases, a Marlin can be made to run with a short stroke. It does have to open enough to feed, but if you run a short case like .38 Short Colt or Cowboy .45 Special, 4 5/8" is doable, and butter smooth. Even a non-short stroked Marlin can be "flick the fingers" light, as are the ones modified by the method I outlined above. I park my thumb next to the hammer and flick my fingers. The lever will open with TWO POUNDS of effort, even cocking the hammer.

'66 or '73s with 5" throw are the norm in CAS "race gun" circles, and some are very slick.

[winchester1886]

I've just finished designing it I've called it a WINCHESTER 1886...........................Hell !!!!!!!! someone beat me to it.

[tomtex]

I'm ready for box magazine feed on lever guns ,for spree/ pointed type ammo.

[Old Ironsights]

I'm ready for magazine feed on lever guns ,for spree/ pointed type ammo.

After 20 years I finally got one... a 1981 Savage 99C...