30-30 170gr NP vs. 170 Speer FP PICS added

[86er]

Yesterday I got just 7 Nosler Partitions from a guy at work. I had the Speer Hot Core 170 gr bullets already. I decided to compare them side by side. My thoughts were that if the NP was noticably better I'd go buy them for hunting purposes.

The load was exactly the same, 30.5 gr H4895 (some book show this as max) with a CCI 250M in FC cases (once fired). The only difference was the bullets, however they are both 170 grain. The listed velocity is 2138 fps (where do they get these seemingly precise #'s?). I did not chrono the loads because it didn't matter how fast they were going, only that theoretically they should be the same velocity or very close.

The range was 50 yards. The back-stop was 2 phone books around 3 inches thick, wet (from the hose) but not soaked. Behind the phone books was a cardboard box with assorted magazines, soft covered books, newspapes and other paper material. These were dry. Last was a 3/4" sheet of plywood.

I shot 7 NP's on the left half of the target area . I tried to recover bullets after 3 shots. The first 2 NP's went too low. The last one went off to the side and exited to parts unknown. So in the end I had 4 NP's to examine. Based on that, I only shot 4 Speers on the right half of the target area.

My initial thought was that the NP's would penetrate further. I also expected a mushroom shape but later realized I was thinking about the Swift A-Frame design where the front is bonded. So that was not a realistic expectation (that I quickly realized) just mixed my thoughts.

The conclusion in this very limited comparison was:
1) both bullets penetrated the same amount (no more than 30 pages variance between any of the recovered bullets), 2) the NP's all lost the entire front (the "partition" can be seen on the front with a little dimple in it, no lead), 3) the NP's were short (front is gone) and narrow (expanded part, if it did, came off), 4) the NP's weighed less than the Speers (less lead intact), 5) the Speers expanded quite a bit (looked like lead balls with the jacket inside), 6) You can pick the Speers jacket and lead apart with fingernails and separate them with some effort.

This was NOT what I expected. So while I had heard and was led to believe the Nosler Partition is the way to go for larger game if you were inclined to use the 30-30 on bear, moose, etc it seems the Nosler Partition may actually be the better bullet for deer sized game! A deer is softer than my test material so either bullet at 50 yds would likely have exited a deer. The NP may make a bigger mess inside due to the front breaking up and shearing off. On the other hand, maybe the speer would expand to a much larger size while staying together and actually be more effective. The whole thing is so "6 of one, half dozen of the other" that I'm just going to shoot the Speer's since they're half the price, and see how it goes when the deer or hogs show up. Any comments? (Like you guys are shy with your opinions )

Speer on the Left, Nosler Partition on the Right

[Hobie]

IME the Speers and Sierras will penetrate a 150 lb deer stem to stern quartering through all possible bone and gut. I can't imagine that the Noslers would be "better". I know that lots of people use any given thing because it makes them "feel" better and I don't see anything wrong with that.

[FWiedner]

I know that lots of people use any given thing because it makes them "feel" better...

I'm not sure that my bullet selection method is quite so objective...

[Griff]

Joe,

Those are the same things I've heard about the Noslers. I've just never lost an animal w/Federal 150 factory loads, so never had the inclination to test. Great info.

[Nath]

Joe, I ain't surprised with your findings, a freind of mine stopped using partions in his 270 because the nose made to much mess when used on deer.

I only ever used the speer bullets in mt 30/30 on deer. They all but one exited and made just enough damage, they also are as you know the most sleek of the flat points. Work well in 308W too.

Good work Joe.

Nath.

[Bigahh]

Very interesting stuff Joe! I am with Hobie somewhat on this as far as a 30-30. With the velocities being what they are in this caliber I do not believe in my mind that any bullet would penetrate a great deal more than any other. Now if the caliber changes to a much higher velocity cartridge like maybe a 300 Win Mag my mind changes a bit on the subject. That is my feelings on this right or wrong.

[horsesoldier03]

Yep those fancy bullets are all overrated IMO! 170 grn Corelokts will do it every time for me.

[Sarge]

Thanks for the report, 86'er.

Come to think of it, I don't believe I've ever recovered a 150 grain Winchester or Sierra SP from a deer either, and I've seen about a heaping pickup load of the them fall to one or the other. That's the beauty of the old 30 WCF, enough velocity for decent trajectory and good effect; but not so much that it won't work with any decent bullet.

IMO what's needed, for max penetration in this caliber, is a good 175 grain MFJ with a heavy jacket and a big, flat snout on it. Shame nobody makes one or at least nobody I've been able to locate.

[m.wun]

I recently shot into soaked magazines with 170gr PP win. and then shot with 308win
150gr bonded core.The diffrance in penetration was only about a inch.The bonded bullet
was more violent because of velocity but the 30-30 still penetrated.

[RANisbet]

I and my sons used to use 189 grain Noslers in our 30-06s at max velocity, until we had 3 elk and a moose take killing shots at under 50 yards and then run as if they were just scared, and 2 were never to be seen again. The 3rd elk took the first shot from the side through both lungs. A 30 cal hole going in and a 30 cal hole out the other side. The elk then turned and ran straight toward my son. Second shot was throught the brisquit into the heart. That bullet was recovered in the heart and was nothing but a 30 cal billet, the back half of the Nosler. It's penetration was not that great in my opinion!!!
Bob Nisbet

[TedH]

Those 170 Speers always seemed like a good tough bullet to me. No need to spend the big bucks on those Partitions.

[2X22]

I've always been a huge fan of Speers bullets. Just plain killed too many critters with them not to be. Loaded and used both the 150's and 170's in the 30-30 with fantastic success over the years amongst many other calibers.

My FIL was a giant NP fan for years. Then he moved to Alaska and saw them fail miserably on moose, and the really big black bears of Prince Wales. After a trip back down to visit we discussed it and I talked him into trying some Speers. A few years later he reported 100% success on everything he hunted.

2x22

[Rimfire McNutjob]

Looks like a good reason to stick with Swift if you're going to load a partition style bullet.

[jlchucker]

Yep those fancy bullets are all overrated IMO! 170 grn Corelokts will do it every time for me.

170 grain Corelocts and Winchester Powerpoints.The Ranchdog 170 grain and Lyman 311041 work just as well-- Really all anybody needs in this caliber. Non-exotic ammo has worked quite well in the 30-30 for over a century.

[fordwannabe]

I was about to mention some old heated up highway debris has worked pretty well for a few guys for a few years. I like the RCBS design more than the lyman though. Tom

[brno602]

I am a big fan of the Nozler Part I have used them on lot's of Game from Deer to Moose and one Big Bear.
Yes they do open fast and they do lose almost half their wieght. But they always work and on a Close range Elk it is nice to have the back half of the bullet pass through.
In a 30/30 though I don't know afterall 30/30 bullets are all ment for the same Velocity I like the Hornady 170gr.Not like loading the same bullet for the Ultra mag and .300 savage
But too be honest I have never had a regular bullet fail on me except for the first Hornady SST's I shot two Deer with my .280 and both times the bullet did strange things! One Blew up and took out only one lung the other Change direction and went strait up 90°
The one with one lung, freaked me out as I have never had a deer go more than 40 yrds on me after a hit!Had to shoot it twice!
I like the Remington Core loct in a 150gr for all my 7mms it just works well. I have also shot the Rem CL 165gr .308 and pushed it to over 3400fps I took a huge WT buck and found the bullet lost about 50% of it's weight and was flat as a pancake under the hide on the off side at 175yds. Now the best bullet I have tested in Wet paper was the Old CIL Kling Core Soft Piont You can see the Crimp on the bullet and Dam they work good! and best thing is they made a 30/30 bullet too.By Crimp I mean they have notches in the back half just under the crimping grove a really well thought out bullet!
I still have that CL will have to find it and take a pic.
Bullets like Trucks and Women We all like some and hate the others lol!
Now here is a tip you need a best friend and hunting buddy like I have that will try and test every new bullet on game I have such a friend, it took 20 years but now he is starting to think Dam I should just stick to one! plus he is a one gun hunter 06 for everything, he has now stuck to a 165gr Sierria for Deer and a 200gr Speer for Elk and Moose with the 180gr Nozler as a second choice. Gee it only took him 22 years of playing around!!!

[brno602]

I will get a pic of a KKSP in 160gr 7mm and my REM CL when I get home later today.

[3leggedturtle]

Aren't the NP's s'posed to let the front half expand quickly and violently. While the rear half continues on, and penetrates to the off side or completely thru?

[86er]

Yes 3LT they the NP are supposed to do that. These acted accordingly in my test, but I was caught off guard because I expected them to penetrate more than traditional cup and core bullets.

[shdwlkr]

86er
Interesting to find that the nosler is really not as good as anything else out there. I have moved from jacketed to lead bullets because I can have better access to the weight bullet I want by just casting either heavier or lighter weight bullet.
I have some noslers for my 270 but they are old maybe 20 years plus now and I may never shoot them now.
I do like my 30-30 and would take anything that came at me with my 173 grain lead bullets and not feel under powered up to the grizzley and then I am not sure you can have to much gun. If I were going where they lived I would take my 45-70 and 425 grain bullets if that didn't stop the bear then it was my time to leave this earth.

[brno602]

I will get some pic's up as soon as the wife comes home and tells me why the computer is not talking to the Camera. I really want to get the pics of a Kling Core soft point up, maybe the best soft point ever made!
P.S
I am a hard core Nosler Part guy they always work for me.

[O.S.O.K.]

Interesting, I too regarded the 30-30 partition as a controlled expansion for deep penetration type bullet.

I think really though, if there ever was a cartridge that fully utilizes the cup and core technology, its the 30 W.C.F.

I have always used Speers but I guess they're dropping their standard bullets in favor of the new bonded ones. I guess as long as they expand the same, that'll be OK - though they cost a lot more.

[brno602]

That's what I am thinking the 30/30 and .303 only have bullets made for the 30/30,303 I mean the real .303 British round the 2200 to 2500 fps The cup and core bullets always get the job done heck I have pushed the .30 cal 165gr Rem at 3400fps and it got the job done, but I would not want it for a Elk Moose bullet in my gun.
Still waiting for the better half to help me with my comp problem.It's girls night out today lol
I keep looking at that 160gr Kling Core soft point and thinking dam they had a good bullet I have used them in .270 to .308.

[Malamute]

I think the Nosler Partitions have their place, but for the 30-30 it may be a bit overengineered for the task at hand. as has been mentioned, the 30-30 doesnt go fast enough to tear up standard type bullets. The higher velocity round can and sometimes do tear up standard type bullets, so the Partition comes into it's niche in that instance. They allow a wide range of velocities (and therefore a wide range of distances with good bullet peformance) without having the bullet come apart completely close in, and will still open up at longer range. That's just not what we usually do with a 30-30, so within it's most used velocity range, the standard bullets do fine.

Years ago, I shot some Speer and Hornady 170's into wet lap. The Hornady's expanded a little more on the several I shot, and the Speers slightly less. Looked like the Speers were slightly tougher bullets, but that isnt a very representative sample. The Hornady's expanded back to about 1/2 the length of the bullet, the Speers expanded about 1/3 of the way back. The few I've shot into deer or other critters went right through, so I can't say much about how they do in animals, except they both seem to work.

[BigSky56]

the original 30-30 noslers weren't partition but cup and core I guess the lure of premium bullets and prices took hold of shooters and nosler. 30-40 krag 30-30 and 300 savage have been killing deer, elk and moose since they came out 80 to 100+ years ago, just hit them in the lungs from the side or quartering dont try it between the hams and you'll put meat on the table. danny

[pharmseller]

I think the Nosler Partitions have their place, but for the 30-30 it may be a bit overengineered for the task at hand. as has been mentioned, the 30-30 doesnt go fast enough to tear up standard type bullets. The higher velocity round can and sometimes do tear up standard type bullets, so the Partition comes into it's niche in that instance. They allow a wide range of velocities (and therefore a wide range of distances with good bullet peformance) without having the bullet come apart completely close in, and will still open up at longer range. That's just not what we usually do with a 30-30, so within it's most used velocity range, the standard bullets do fine.

Years ago, I shot some Speer and Hornady 170's into wet lap. The Hornady's expanded a little more on the several I shot, and the Speers slightly less. Looked like the Speers were slightly tougher bullets, but that isnt a very representative sample. The Hornady's expanded back to about 1/2 the length of the bullet, the Speers expanded about 1/3 of the way back. The few I've shot into deer or other critters went right through, so I can't say much about how they do in animals, except they both seem to work.

Well stated.
I shot a 5 point Rocky Mountain bull a while ago with 180 grain green box .30-06 bullets. Around 60 yards. None of the bullets exited, but the bull only went a few yards. Successful.
A few years later I shot another 5 point with a 180 grain NP from a 300 WBY. That bullet might still be going for all I know. The bull took about six steps and fell over.
A couple of years after that I shot another 5 point (Roosy this time) with the same load. I recovered that bullet after it transversed nearly the entire length of the bull.
About three years after that I shot through another 5 point with a hot 30-06 NP 180 grain load. He was moving out or he might have been DRT. Still, I won't argue over 20 yards.
I use NP exclusively, but at hot 30-06 and 300 WBY velocities.

P

[KWK]

This is purely speculation on my part, but perhaps Nosler makes the front section of their .30-30 Partition extra soft (by Partition standards) to ensure expansion at longer ranges. Nosler seems to know their business, so perhaps they put a little extra effort into this design.

[Drawdown]

I was browsing Midway, and they had the 170gr Nosler Partition for 30-30 @ little under $40 a box. These are usually $55-60, so I ordered 2 boxs=100. Did a search, found this old thread, a good one, and confirmed what I already knew from experience, the Win PP & Rem CL, Speer HC has about been perfection on deer and such in the 30-30! But these are a bullet with a great rep, I'll save em for later, done got everything covered in my loads.
There was a very good article in latest issue of FF&G, about Bringing enough gun, Moose-Bear and so forth, but written by a northern guide with what appears plenty experience.? But he mentions that Jack O'Connor wrote of a guy in ?state, that took 17 elk with one 20rd box of factory 30-30 ammo. Great article and had to bring this thread back up!

[AJMD429]

I was about to mention some old heated up highway debris has worked pretty well for a few guys for a few years. I like the RCBS design more than the lyman though. Tom

I have not had enough hunting experience other than whitetail deer and feral dogs and other barnyard predators to say much other than I've never had a hard cast lead bullet fail me on those kind of animals, and the Winchester semi-jacketed soft point 240 grain 44 Mag bullet has also been very dependable making an entrance and exit wound in whitetails without much debris.

From what I have read it seems like hard cast lead works for most bigger animals using the over-40 calibers, unless you have to get super penetration in which case it seems to make sense to go with bronze solids. But all that is from reading what others who've been there and done that write.

Still nice to see an honest side-by-side of a couple of well-known hunting bullets available to us, and I appreciate the post quite a bit.

[Scott Tschirhart]

I think the Remington Corlocked 170 gr bullet should do the job on most hunting needs and that is pretty much what I rely on.

However, for police work I preferred the old (and unfortunately discontinued) 170 gr Winchester Silvertip. It did well on penetration of body panels and windshields and I think it had a reputation as a tougher bullet (though I had no complaints about how it did on hogs).

I don't see a need for solid bullets in a .30-30 as soft points seem to do the job as intended.

[gcs]

FWIW, there was a picture on one of these lever sites of 2, 170 corelokts recovered from a moose, almost complete penetration, yes, the moose was dead...lol
The 2 slugs were the most perfect mushroom shape you'd ever see, any one of them would have killed the moose,.

Another guy an Aussie, showed 2 "brush bulls" feral cattle bulls, that he had taken with 150gr. factory ammo out of his 30-30.

Not sure how much more power or penetration is required.

[stretch]

Yep those fancy bullets are all overrated IMO! 170 grn Corelokts will do it every time for me.

I gotta agree with others on this thread - the CoreLokt is THE standard in a big game bullet.
It's been around for 90 years or so, but it was done right. Some bullets have a better ballistic
coefficient, and other have been tweaked to expand differently, but the CoreLokt ALWAYS seems
to work.

-Stretch

[Griff]

Still a good read these many years later... I still find the 150 grain Federal PowerShok sufficient for my deer or havelina hunting, or for coyote control.

[Drawdown]

I shot this buck at aprox 50yds with a 150g Rem CL from a Marlin when the shot finally came in heavy brush. It went in center of right front shoulder, busted the left shoulder and I found the bullet in 2 pieces right against the hide. When I pulled the trigger the bucks nose hit ground, both front legs useless, his hind legs just plowing like a riverboat. He was slightly uphill of me, and when he finally gave it up he was almost at my feet. He was a big deer I'm sure close to 200 pound.

20220430_072347.jpg

[Drawdown]

The Rem CL is on top, and the bottom is a 150g Win PP, that actually probably performed even better? The deer was within 10 yds of me, and I shot right at back edge of the left shoulder, missing it, but the bullet went almost full length, and broke the hind right leg completely, the deer hit the ground crippled. I put another in the boiler room to finish the job.
I consider both bullet performance on these two deer about perfect. But I haven't been able to find either bullet since 2019! I think I prefer the 170's, but not so sure, because the 150's have been excellent. I shot the 150's in my Marlin because they shot best, and already had the 150g Win ammo, for a deer I killed with about the same performance in 2019 out of my Mod 64, but it exited, never found it.

20220430_072227.jpg

The Rem CL on the left and PP on right.