Doping the wind?

[L_Kilkenny]

A thread over at predator masters got me to thinkin a little about the title subject. My "doping ability" is merely educated (sometimes un-educated) guesses and kentucky windage. Years ago I had looked into the hand held wind measuring devices but they were, and still are, beyond my budget. Or more accurately, what I'm willing to spend.

But the other thread got me to thinkin. They talked briefly about using grass, dirt, etc to judge the wind by measuring/approximating how far away it landed when dropped from waist or shoulder height. Well I started thinkin about what kinda device/object I could use in the same function. Something that is more consistent than grass and dirt.

It needs to be light enough to be blown sideways in a 5-25 mph wind and reusable. My first thought was a ping pong ball. But lord knows I'd spend half and hour chasing it down after I dropped it. Another thought was a waded up ball of masking tape. It would still roll but not bounce like a ping pong ball.

What kinda ideas do you fella's (and ladies) have?

LK

[J Miller]

On the rare occasion I've tried to gauge the wind I just used dirt or sand depending on where I was at.
My biggest problem with doing that is; was the wind the same speed and angle at 100 yds or where ever the target was at or different?
I came up with this question by observing the wind socks that some ranges had out. At the firing line the sock would be more or less calm, at the target range it was really being blown about.
It never seemed to be the same.

My shooting results when trying to gauge the wind were pathetic to say the least. Never did get the hang of it.


Joe

[AJMD429]

My son has some kind of powder-poofer thing that he got I think for using when bow hunting. Amazingly sensitive. No odor I could detect. About the size of a Visene bottle (eye drops).

[Rusty]

If you go over to rimfire central.com down towards the bottom of the topics page in the benchrest section I think... is a download for a little computer game called "Benchrest Mania" that you can down load for free. In the game you can set the wind many different ways and there are three wind flags there for you to read as you shoot. I'm not saying that playing a game on the computer is as good as trigger time but as least you'll get an idea of how the different wind conditions can affect the bullet's flight.

[336A]

JMiller hit the nail on the head in his post. It really is not what the wind is doing at your location but at your targets location. It is not uncommon to find the wind blowing in direction at your loacation and another direction at your tagets location. Here is a good rule of thumb for you.
0-3MPH winds can barely be felt but will drift smoke.
5-8MPH winds will be slightly felt on your face or exposed skin, it will also blow litter such as empty paper/plastic bags.
8-12MPH winds will keep leaves on tress and tall grass in constant motion.
12-15MPH winds will cause smaller trees to sway back and forth.
Anything greater than 15MPH is not worth shooting in. At that point just wwait for a lull then break your shot.

If you have a spotting scope you can also use that to read mirage. I found that to be more difficult however but the above examples have worked very well for me.

[Chuck 100 yd]

What the wind is doing near the shooter is MOST IMPORTANT.
It starts to deflect the bullet early and once the bullet is on another path it will remain on that path until another force acts upon it.
A bullet that encounters a wind near the target has much less time to drift off to wherever.

Go to a BR shoot and you will see a field of wind flags. Anywhere from 3 to 5 for each shooter there.

[Don McDowell]

The best way to get your wind doping skills tuned up is take your rifle and go shooting and not just on the calm days.
They sell those little anomometers that can be especially helpful in reading wind speeds.Then just learning your ballistics tables and put that to use.
Lots of trigger time will get it done.

[336A]

What the wind is doing near the shooter is MOST IMPORTANT.
It starts to deflect the bullet early and once the bullet is on another path it will remain on that path until another force acts upon it.
A bullet that encounters a wind near the target has much less time to drift off to wherever.

Go to a BR shoot and you will see a field of wind flags. Anywhere from 3 to 5 for each shooter there.

I guess we are going to have to agree to disagree on this one. Simply put that way of thinking flies in the face of physics. As the longer a projectile is exposed to the elements (gravity and air resistance) the slower the projectile will become, the end result is it gets slower and will be unable to counter the effects of not only gravity and air resistance but wind as well. If you have a full value wind 5MPH near you and a full value 15MPH wind out at 700yd it will be the full value 15MPH wind that has the greater effect as the bullet has slowed considerably by this point. This is reinforced in all of the the current ballistics tables and Sierra's exterior ballistics as well.

[JReed]

I use the same techniques as 336A for wind doping.
This is the same things we are taught in Marine Corps Marksmanship and it has worked well for me in the past.

[L_Kilkenny]

Here is a good rule of thumb for you.
0-3MPH winds can barely be felt but will drift smoke.
5-8MPH winds will be slightly felt on your face or exposed skin, it will also blow litter such as empty paper/plastic bags.
8-12MPH winds will keep leaves on tress and tall grass in constant motion.
12-15MPH winds will cause smaller trees to sway back and forth.
Anything greater than 15MPH is not worth shooting in. At that point just wwait for a lull then break your shot.

Guess I'm hosed then, we scoff at 15 mph winds! LOL

Good info and guidelines, thanks. To be honest though, if I wait for a day with winds less than 15mph I'd cut my shootin days by 80%. Winds are that bad here. During spring, fall and winter 10 mph is a considered a calm day and 20-25 can be the norm. When spotting and stalking fox and coyote I try to keep my shots into the wind as much as possible. Even if that means giving up cover or taking longer shots. I'd rather take a 300 yard shot dead into a 20mph wind than a 200 yard crossing shot in that wind.

As for what is happening downrange vs. at the barrel there's not much I can do about it. I can only know what it's doing where I'm at unless at a formal range with flags. Thinking that maybe a 2" x 2" block of styrofoam or blue builders foam board might give me a decent reading in the wind.

LK

[Don McDowell]

You can watch the grass,weeds or tree limbs at distance and get a pretty good idea about what the wind is doing .

[Wind]

Hey there L_Kilkenny -- Here is a test target shot at 400 yards. The point of aim for the 30-30 is the left hand edge on the same elevation as the X ring. This is a 300 meter target with an 18 inch diameter bull. This was strictly a test on wind drift with a 25 knot cross wind, sweeping uphill slightly. Got the first shot off (the hit nearest the point of aim) in a lull, and the next two strung out horizontally to the right. At 25 knots of crosswind, the 30-30 was stringing about 36 inches horizontally. The first of three 45-70 hits is between the right hand 30-30 hits. These were aimed on the center line of the bull (at the X). The other two missed right. They strung out about 18 inches and were 350 grain bullets, just about twice the weight of the 170 grain 30-30. With a myriad of different loads and calibers, I find it easier to just see what happens in various conditions and record that information for future reference. Hope this helps. Best regards. Wind

[Griff]

Aye, 336A has it. The spotting scope to judge & obseve mirage can be very useful, as wind speed at the height of the bullet's flight can be vastly different than what indicated by grass at ground level. This is especially true when shooting across broken or uneven ground.

Dopin' wind is probably as much art as science. From what I've obsrved in the world of BPCR, a good spotter not only tells you where your last shot went, but what the wind is doin' & how to get that next shot on target. Just as in the world of sniping, the shooter may be an excellent judge of conditions, have intimate knowledge of trajectories, his rifle and scope, possess superb control over breath, heart and trigger; once he's hunkered down, concentrated on the target it's the spotter that has to keep him aware of conditions outside the shooter's scope. IMO, long distance shooting is a team event.

As Don said, lots of trigger time helps, but so does just time outside observing.

[Charles]

In the "Days of Yore", we used range flags. There were long triangular pendants placed at known distances between the shooter and the target. There was a little formula for telling the wind speed by the angle the flag hung to the staff. With all of the stuff on the Internet, you can probably come up with some details on the flags and how to use them.

I am somewhat skeptical about the hand held wind meters as they only read the wind where you are, and not where the bullet will be. With the flags at mid-range and the target you could know what the wind was at the distances that were important. You could also tell, the changes in the velocity and direction of the wind between shots. Generations of shooters used them.

As I get older I am suprised how much basic stuff has never been taught to the current generation. Not just in shooting, but in many other areas as well. Todays folks look to technilogy to solve their problems, but that was not so in "those days" as the Bible says.

[336A]

Here is a good rule of thumb for you.
0-3MPH winds can barely be felt but will drift smoke.
5-8MPH winds will be slightly felt on your face or exposed skin, it will also blow litter such as empty paper/plastic bags.
8-12MPH winds will keep leaves on tress and tall grass in constant motion.
12-15MPH winds will cause smaller trees to sway back and forth.
Anything greater than 15MPH is not worth shooting in. At that point just wwait for a lull then break your shot.

Guess I'm hosed then, we scoff at 15 mph winds! LOL

Good info and guidelines, thanks. To be honest though, if I wait for a day with winds less than 15mph I'd cut my shootin days by 80%. Winds are that bad here. During spring, fall and winter 10 mph is a considered a calm day and 20-25 can be the norm. When spotting and stalking fox and coyote I try to keep my shots into the wind as much as possible. Even if that means giving up cover or taking longer shots. I'd rather take a 300 yard shot dead into a 20mph wind than a 200 yard crossing shot in that wind.

As for what is happening downrange vs. at the barrel there's not much I can do about it. I can only know what it's doing where I'm at unless at a formal range with flags. Thinking that maybe a 2" x 2" block of styrofoam or blue builders foam board might give me a decent reading in the wind.

LK

I understand that sometimes you have to do what you have to do. But as Griff said long range shooting is really a team effort. It becomes even more so IMHO when you begin launching lead at game. That is why I like to get as close as I can to whatever quarry I'm after even if it is a coyote. There are other variables that come into play with long range shooting other than wind. If you are looking to be consistently accurate at long range things such as temp, and humidity also become a factor.

For example if the temp is 10 degrees warmer than it was when you zeroed your rifle the bullet will hit 1" higher than it did when you last zeroed. The strike of the round will impact 1" higher for every 10 degrees difference in temp. This will go the other way if you are shooting in cold weather. If you zero in 70 degree weather and shoot in 30 degree temps the bullet will drop 4" lower.

Humidity is another factor. Humidity makes the air more dense as it adds moisture. A 20% increase in humidity from the day you zeroed will cause a bullet to drop 1". The effect will be opposite for every 20% decrease in humidty from the day you zeroed. Another useful tool that you should consider if your serious about long range shooting is a DOPE/Data book. In case anyone asks you what DOPE is it Data Of Previous Engagements. Here is a Dope/Data book you should be able to find one on the internet somewhere.

[Paladin]

Charles had it right, check around and find a score book for someone who shoots High Power Rifle, the ones I had had charts in the front of them with the wind speeds for the flags at different positions. Most of us also put a length of cravat on our spotting scope rods for wind at the line. The older shooters spent a lot of time teaching us younger guys how to dope wind. That was what usually separated the winner from the rest of us.

[JReed]

Here is a good rule of thumb for you.
0-3MPH winds can barely be felt but will drift smoke.
5-8MPH winds will be slightly felt on your face or exposed skin, it will also blow litter such as empty paper/plastic bags.
8-12MPH winds will keep leaves on tress and tall grass in constant motion.
12-15MPH winds will cause smaller trees to sway back and forth.
Anything greater than 15MPH is not worth shooting in. At that point just wwait for a lull then break your shot.

Guess I'm hosed then, we scoff at 15 mph winds! LOL

Good info and guidelines, thanks. To be honest though, if I wait for a day with winds less than 15mph I'd cut my shootin days by 80%. Winds are that bad here. During spring, fall and winter 10 mph is a considered a calm day and 20-25 can be the norm. When spotting and stalking fox and coyote I try to keep my shots into the wind as much as possible. Even if that means giving up cover or taking longer shots. I'd rather take a 300 yard shot dead into a 20mph wind than a 200 yard crossing shot in that wind.

As for what is happening downrange vs. at the barrel there's not much I can do about it. I can only know what it's doing where I'm at unless at a formal range with flags. Thinking that maybe a 2" x 2" block of styrofoam or blue builders foam board might give me a decent reading in the wind.

LK

I understand that sometimes you have to do what you have to do. But as Griff said long range shooting is really a team effort. It becomes even more so IMHO when you begin launching lead at game. That is why I like to get as close as I can to whatever quarry I'm after even if it is a coyote. There are other variables that come into play with long range shooting other than wind. If you are looking to be consistently accurate at long range things such as temp, and humidity also become a factor.

For example if the temp is 10 degrees warmer than it was when you zeroed your rifle the bullet will hit 1" higher than it did when you last zeroed. The strike of the round will impact 1" higher for every 10 degrees difference in temp. This will go the other way if you are shooting in cold weather. If you zero in 70 degree weather and shoot in 30 degree temps the bullet will drop 4" lower.

Humidity is another factor. Humidity makes the air more dense as it adds moisture. A 20% increase in humidity from the day you zeroed will cause a bullet to drop 1". The effect will be opposite for every 20% decrease in humidty from the day you zeroed. Another useful tool that you should consider if your serious about long range shooting is a DOPE/Data book. In case anyone asks you what DOPE is it Data Of Previous Engagements. Here is a Dope/Data book you should be able to find one on the internet somewhere.

That is very similar to the range books we (USMC) use for qualification. I will have to see if I can dig one out and get a pic for ya.

[Sarge]

I shoot a 30-30 regularly at 200 yards; generally dope the wind by the Miller Method except I toss a handfull of grass in the air, about halfway to the target. I have noted considerable differences in wind along a 200 yard stretch.