Load manuals, jacketed versus cast: why...

[Otto]

... do most load manuals have such disparate load data for .357, for instance? The data for cast bullets in all my books, and Hodgdon's website for example, look more like CAS loads. I know there are people here driving lead at proper magnum velocities.

[Idiot]

Well I suppose most of the major bullet makers, who write the manuals, don't make the proper lead bullets that can be driven at "proper magnum velocities." Speer and Hornady only make swagged (soft) lead bullets which will leave pieces of themselve in the barrel if driven faster than their data suggests.

If you look at some of the websites of bullet makers who make such proper lead bullets for "magnum velocities," you will find load data for their bullets (beartooth bullets to name one). Also, if you go to handloads.com you may find load data there. While visiting those sites you might want to read some of the info there to acertain just what makes up a proper bullet that can be driven at "proper magnum velocities."

[J Miller]

I don't know why but most reloading manual publishers seem to think we use our handgun caliber lever guns as toys. Other than the handgun load section found in the manuals I've yet to find any good published rifle loads.

I think the folks here have more tested and proven lever gun data than all the reloading companies put together.

Joe

[Otto]

Well I suppose most of the major bullet makers, who write the manuals, don't make the proper lead bullets that can be driven at "proper magnum velocities." Speer and Hornady only make swagged (soft) lead bullets which will leave pieces of themselve in the barrel if driven faster than their data suggests.

If you look at some of the websites of bullet makers who make such proper lead bullets for "magnum velocities," you will find load data for their bullets (beartooth bullets to name one). Also, if you go to handloads.com you may find load data there. While visiting those sites you might want to read some of the info there to acertain just what makes up a proper bullet that can be driven at "proper magnum velocities."

Well, I thought it primarily to be a matter of hardness. Is that not the case?

[O.S.O.K.]

You are right, this is an industry bias kind of thing. The Hornady manual for example is showing loads for thier swaged bullets - which are soft and meant for target or plinking loads - lower velocity. At least, this is all I can think of as to why they would present the data like that.

The Lee manual does list more lead-bullet friendly data - you may want to check that out. I think the Lyman manual is the same. These companies make and sell bullet molds, so they are more in-tune with cast bullet (boolit for Hobie ) loads.

As a rule, plain based lead bullets are going to move faster with less pressure than the jacketed bullets of the same weight for the same load. I have had good luck just using the "same weight" jacketed bullet loads for my cast bullet loading - backing off to starting loads just the same as with the jacketed bullets.

Gas checked lead bullets are going to act more like jacketed bullets, but again, the same weight jacketed info is fine to use as long as you follow the same precautions.

This is from my own experience in loading cast bullets. YMMV

[O.S.O.K.]

Well I suppose most of the major bullet makers, who write the manuals, don't make the proper lead bullets that can be driven at "proper magnum velocities." Speer and Hornady only make swagged (soft) lead bullets which will leave pieces of themselve in the barrel if driven faster than their data suggests.

If you look at some of the websites of bullet makers who make such proper lead bullets for "magnum velocities," you will find load data for their bullets (beartooth bullets to name one). Also, if you go to handloads.com you may find load data there. While visiting those sites you might want to read some of the info there to acertain just what makes up a proper bullet that can be driven at "proper magnum velocities."

Well, I thought it primarily to be a matter of hardness. Is that not the case?

As a general rule, you don't want to push plain-based cast bullets beyond about 1500 fps. Gas checked cast bullets are usually good to up around 2000 fps but some have pushed them up to 2300+, and paper patched can go even faster...

Also as a general rule, the lower the pressure/velocity, the softer the alloy you want to use to allow the boolits to slug-up or obturate in the bore. If they don't, they may lead the bore at the chamber end due to gas cutting. Further, even harder alloy cast bullets can lead at higher velocities if the lube isn't up to the task - which usually shows up at the muzzle end of the bore...

[J Miller]

I do not have the latest Lyman Cast Bullet handbook. Do they have any decent cast bullet rifle loads?

Joe

[piller]

Maybe Mike Rintoul will chime in here as he has more knowledge of this subject than anyone I know of. Mike?

[Idiot]

Otto, swagged bullets are almost, if not completely, pure lead and way to soft to be driven very fast. Most cannot be driven to velocities approaching "magnum" status (I assume you are talking about 1,200 fps +). Also, there other factors such as plain base vs bevel base vs gas checked, along with bullet lube, bullet sizing, barrel rifling, and others. Here's a few articles with a bit more info
http://www.leverguns.com/articles/fryxell/lube.htm
http://www.lasc.us/MagnumPerformance.htm.
http://www.gunblast.com/Cast_Performance.htm
There are more article from these websites that could help in your quest for lead magnum performance.

There's a lot information that simply cannot be handled in a quick and dirty post, but requires a bit of research and reading. Have fun.

[missionary5155]

Good evening
Remember ECONOMICS is the key word.
Those loading amnuals are designed to get you hooked on the Jacket bullet road. IF company X wrote REAL cast bullets loads they would be cutting their own sales throat. I would not be surprised to find out most the "Cast Bullets are no good" stories are writtn by X company employed individuals.
BUT a Properly fitted quality cast bullet of the proper hardness will do anything a jacket bullet can.
A good websight to gain some great info is the Castboolits web sight. I have been around casting since I was 4 (my dad) and I am happy to keep on learning from some fine fellers there.

[Idiot]

Remember ECONOMICS is the key word.

Marketing may play a factor, but to think it is the key factor is, IMHO, missing the mark. There are real reasons to not push soft swagged bullets beyond a certain velocity. I think the bullet manufactures are actually doing the right thing by giving us loading data that keeps their bullets within their respective performance velocity ranges.

Oh, and BTW, I shoot cast bullets as much, if not more, than jacketed bullets, and do not hold any shares in any bullet companies.

[Dave]

Oregon Trail cast lead bullets are very good. They have loading data for their bullets. They mailed me the info for 44 Mag. I think they offer a manual though.

http://www.laser-cast.com/

[Hobie]

I don't know why but most reloading manual publishers seem to think we use our handgun caliber lever guns as toys. Other than the handgun load section found in the manuals I've yet to find any good published rifle loads.

I think the folks here have more tested and proven lever gun data than all the reloading companies put together.

Joe

Yep. BTW IME the good fast pistol loads are good fast rifle loads. The only thing required is the use of a bullet suited to those much higher velocities. Big difference in starting a 158 gr. bullet at 1300 fps and starting it at 2000 fps. It is fortunate that such bullets are made or can be cast.

[missionary5155]

I wonder how much more pressure it would take for a HUGE industrial machine to turn out a swaged bullet using lets say wheel Weight ?
I would think companies that can swage primer pockets in brass can surely swage a harder lead bullet than what is available.
There just is no desire in the jacket bullet industry to put anything up against their main bread and butter.

[KentuckyLevrgunr]

I searched high and low for data on .44 Mag 240 grain LSWCGC with H110. I found data on a 245 grain no GC and just used that. a I've got a dandy load using 22.0 grains and lubing/sizing bullets to .429. Accurate and hits like a ton of bricks from my 94 Legacy.

[jlchucker]

I do not have the latest Lyman Cast Bullet handbook. Do they have any decent cast bullet rifle loads?

Joe

I've got the Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook (a couple of versions but not the very latest, which I understand is about to be released) and the RCBS Cast Bullet manual as well. The Lyman Reloading Manual lists many loads for cast as well as jacketed bullets in rifle calibers. Lyman sells molds, not bullets (jacketed or cast). Also, the Lee manual, which lists several cast bullet options. My loading with cast bullets is mostly for rilfes in 30-30, 30-06, 35 Remington, 45-70 (for Marlin rifle) and two 44 magnum rifles. I've cast bullets and loaded them for these rifles since the 1970's. I haven't bought a mold yet for bullets for my 7mm-08 but I intend to. I guess it comes down to what you consider to be a "decent cast bullet rifle load". Mine all group well at 100 yards and won't bounce off the game animals found in areas where I hunt. For me that's decent enough. If you load cast bullets for rifles, you'll need to work up a load for each of your rifles, note it down and stick with it.

[Leverdude]

Lymans regular manual has a bunch of cast data. I like the little load books too because they have data from RCBS for cast among other things. In a rifle its not really hard to get even swagged bullets up to 1300 or so FPS, course thats not magnum velocity in a rifle either. I cant buy the idea that its being left undeveloped because of makers wanting to sell jacketed bullets, only a couple even seem to make both & not all manuals come from bullet manufacturers. Personally I think its because for the most part people shooting lead arent looking for high velocity.

[Marc]

Well I suppose most of the major bullet makers, who write the manuals, don't make the proper lead bullets that can be driven at "proper magnum velocities." Speer and Hornady only make swagged (soft) lead bullets which will leave pieces of themselve in the barrel if driven faster than their data suggests.

If you look at some of the websites of bullet makers who make such proper lead bullets for "magnum velocities," you will find load data for their bullets (beartooth bullets to name one). Also, if you go to handloads.com you may find load data there. While visiting those sites you might want to read some of the info there to acertain just what makes up a proper bullet that can be driven at "proper magnum velocities."

Well, I thought it primarily to be a matter of hardness. Is that not the case?

Hardness is secondary, especially in a rifle since most handgun cartridges won't drive a normal weight cast bullet to velocities where it makes a lot of difference. Bullet fit is primary. If it doesn't fit you can get leading and poor accuracy.

My cast bullet load development starts with finding a bullet that fits the chambered case, the throat and the bore. I use jacketed data if no suitable cast data is available to find a moderate velocity accurate load. Then I start loading for velocity if that is what I want and that is where bullet hardness can become a factor. Harder is not always better. Sometimes a softer bullet works better.

[gimdandy]

Harder is not always better. Sometimes a softer bullet works better.

[O.S.O.K.]

This thread is quickly turning into a cast boolit accuracy thread. There are several factors involved and then you have the individual gun's preferrences.

I will add that a gas check often cures leading and marginalizes the issue of hardness, but I agree that the fit (generally .01"-.02" over bore dimension) is very important.

I am still learning about my own molds, equipment and guns and what works for me.

Casting and loading boolits is as much an art as a science.

[2X22]

that is where bullet hardness can become a factor. Harder is not always better. Sometimes a softer bullet works better.

Most new to casting don't understand that. Hardness can be a detriment and most definately ruins performance on game.

2x22

[Marc]

The words "hard cast" are internet speak for "I don't know what the hey I am talking about but it sure sounds cool!"

[mikld]

A couple fellers touched on bullet fit. A cast bullet that is undersized will lead the barrels regardless of how "hard" it is when driven at magnum velocities. Proper fit (.002" over bore size, or so), and a decient lube are necessary for magnum loads. Can't do that with Hornady or Speer lead bullets and I believe their load data reflects that. I have been able to shoot wheel weight alloy bullets 250 gr. flat base with full (near max.) loads of WC820 with no leading when sized .002" over bore size in my 44 Ruger SBH.

[jlchucker]

This thread has evolved into quite a discussion about cast bullets. It seems like quite a few posters (myself included) make them and use them a lot. Yet, we still haven't defined what the parameters are for what are, as was mentioned early on, as being "good rifle loads", or "decent cast rifle bullet loads". What are we talking about here? does "decent" means "high velocity", at the expense of accuracy and/or killing power? Where does penetration come into the definition? Several years ago, someone in one of the gun magazines compared a 240 grain 44 magnum handgun with the black powder Walker Colt (repro was used for the test). I don't save old magazines, and don't even read new ones these days, but I remember the remark a clerk in a gunshop made when he read the article. It was one of surprise. The Walker ball actually penetrated, into ballistic gel, quite a bit further than the mag did, but the wound channel for the mag was wider. Again--what are we talking about here as being a "decent cast bullet load" or a "good rifle load"? Whatever you guys come up with I'd be interested in reading--but I'll keep taking my cast bullets out deer and bear hunting, just as I always do. And I'll keep going to the range and plinking clay pigeon fragments at 100 yds with my 44 mag trapper, using lead bullets, just as I've been doing since I got that particular gun in the 1980's. What, indeed, defines a "good rifle load"?

[Marc]

A good rifle load fits the purpose.

[JohndeFresno]

This is from my own experience in loading cast bullets. YMMV

OSOK,

I'm of the more "mature" generation and rarely do the texting thing - What does yumvee mean?

[O.S.O.K.]

No prob.

Your Milage May Vary

[txpete]

alloy is a factor as stated above.I use 9lbs ww to 1 lb linotype.BHN runs at 15 BHN which isn't a hard cast bullet as defined by the "experts". with proper sizing and a quality lube and gas ck 2000 fps and no leading in my 444.with the lee 340 gr bullet in my 45/70 1400+ fps and no leading and thats with a plain base bullet.there is nothing in texas that those loads won't kill .
I don't remember the last time I even shot a jacketed bullet out of my handguns.I know for a fact my ruger 44 mag has never had a jacketed bullet down the tube.

pete