Political - Maybe the ACLU is wrong...

Post by **Ysabel Kid** » Tue Jan 15, 2008 11:47 pm

Either that, or the US Constitution, and the Constitutions of all 50 states, are really off the mark.

What is the common thread here?

Alabama, 1901, Preamble: We the people of the State of Alabama, invoking the favor and guidance of Almighty God, do ordain and establish the following Constitution.

Alaska, 1956, Preamble: We, the people of Alaska, grateful to God and to those who founded our nation and pioneered this great land...

Arizona, 1911, Preamble: We, the people of the State of Arizona, grateful to Almighty God for our liberties, do ordain this Constitution...

Arkansas, 1874, Preamble: We, the people of the State of Arkansas, grateful to Almighty God for the privilege of choosing our own form of government...

California, 1879, Preamble: We, the People of the State of California, grateful to Almighty God for our freedom...

Colorado, 1876, Preamble: We, the people of Colorado, with profound reverence for the Supreme Ruler of Universeâ€¦

Connecticut, 1818, Preamble: The People of Connecticut, acknowledging with gratitude the good Providence of God in permitting them to enjoy...

Delaware, 1897, Preamble: Through Divine Goodness all men have, by nature, the rights of worshipping and serving their Creator according to the dictates of their consciences.

Florida, 1885, Preamble: We, the people of the State of Florida, grateful to Almighty God for our constitutional liberty, establish this Constitution....

Georgia, 1777, Preamble: We, the people of Georgia, relying upon protection and guidance of Almighty God, do ordain and establish this Constitution...

Hawaii, 1959, Preamble: We, the people of Hawaii, Grateful for your Divine Guidance, establish this Constitution...

Idaho, 1889, Preamble: We, the people of the State of Idaho, grateful to Almighty God for our freedom, to secure its blessings...

Illinois, 1870, Preamble: We, the people of the state of Illinois, grateful to Almighty God for the civil law, political and religious liberty which He hath so long permitted us to enjoy and looking to Him for a blessing on our endeavorsâ€¦

Indiana, 1851, Preamble: We, the People of the State of Indiana, grateful to Almighty God for the free exercise of the right to choose our form of government...

Iowa, 1857, Preamble: We, the People of the State of Iowa, grateful to the Supreme Being for the blessings hitherto enjoyed, and feeling our dependence on Him for a continuation of these blessings, establish this Constitutionâ€¦

Kansas, 1859, Preamble: We, the people of Kansas, grateful to Almighty God for our civil and religious privileges establish this Constitution...

Kentucky, 1891, Preamble: We, the people of the Commonwealth are grateful to Almighty God for the civil, political and religious liberties...

Louisiana, 1921, Preamble: We, the people of the State of Louisiana, grateful to Almighty God for the civil, political and religious liberties we enjoy...

Maine, 1820, Preamble: We the People of Maine acknowledging with grateful hearts the goodness of the Sovereign Ruler of the Universe in affording us an opportunity ... And imploring His aid and direction...

Maryland, 1776, Preamble: We, the people of the state of Maryland, grateful to Almighty God for our civil and religious liberty...

Massachusetts, 1780, Preamble: We...the people of Massachusetts, acknowledging with grateful hearts, the goodness of the Great Legislator of the Universe... In the course of His Providence, an opportunity and devoutly imploring His direction...

Michigan, 1908, Preamble: We, the people of the State of Michigan, grateful to Almighty God for the blessings of freedom establish this Constitutionâ€¦

Minnesota, 1857, Preamble: We, the people of the State of Minnesota, grateful to God for our civil and religious liberty, and desiring to perpetuate its blessingsâ€¦

Mississippi, 1890, Preamble: We, the people of Mississippi in convention assembled, grateful to Al mighty God, and invoking His blessing on our work.

Missouri, 1845, Preamble: We, the people of Missouri, with profound reverence for the Supreme Ruler of the Universe, and grateful for His goodness... Establish this Constitution...

Montana, 1889, Preamble: We, the people of Montana, grateful to Almighty God for the blessings of liberty establish this Constitution...
Nebraska, 1875, Preamble: We, the people, grateful to Almighty God for our freedom... Establish this Constitution...

Nevada, 1864, Preamble: We the people of the State of Nevada, grateful l to Almighty God for our freedom establish this Constitutionâ€¦

New Hampshire, 1792, Part I, Article I, Section V: Every individual has a natural and unalienable right to worship God according to the dictates of his own conscience.

New Jersey, 1844, Preamble: We, the people of the State of New Jersey, grateful to Almighty God for civil and religious liberty which He hath so long permitted us to enjoy, and looking to Him for a blessing on our endeavors.

New Mexico, 1911, Preamble: We, the People of New Mexico, grateful to Almighty God for the blessings of libertyâ€¦

New York, 1846, Preamble: We, the people of the State of New York, grateful to Almighty God for our freedom, in order to secure its blessings.

North Carolina, 1868, Preamble: We the people of the State of North Carolina, grateful to Almighty God, the Sovereign Ruler of Nations, for our civil, political, and religious liberties, and acknowledging our dependence upon Him for the continuance of thoseâ€¦

North Dakota, 1889, Preamble: We, the people of North Dakota, grateful to Almighty God for the blessings of civil and religious liberty, do ordain...
Ohio, 1852, Preamble: We the people of the state of Ohio, grateful to Almighty God for our freedom, to secure its blessings and to promote our commonâ€¦

Oklahoma, 1907, Preamble: Invoking the guidance of Almighty God, in order to secure and perpetuate the blessings of liberty .... establish this...

Oregon, 1857, Bill of Rights, Article I, Section 2: All men shall be secure in the Natural right, to worship Almighty God according to the dictates of their consciences...

Pennsylvania, 1776, Preamble: We, the people of Pennsylvania, grateful to Almighty God for the blessings of civil and religious liberty, and humbly invoking His guidanceâ€¦

Rhode Island, 1842, Preamble: We the People of the State of Rhode Island, grateful to Almighty God for the civil and religious liberty which He hath so long permitted us to enjoy, and looking to Him for a blessingâ€¦

South Carolina, 1778, Preamble: We, the people of he State of South Carolina grateful to God for our liberties, do ordain and establish this Constitution.

South Dakota, 1889, Preamble: We, the people of South Dakota, grateful to Almighty God for our civil and religious libertiesâ€¦

Tennessee, 1796, Article XI, Section III: That all men have a natural and indefeasible right to worship Almighty God according to the dictates of their conscience...

Texas, 1845, Preamble: We the People of the Republic of Texas, acknowledging, with gratitude, the grace and beneficence of Godâ€¦

Utah, 1896, Preamble: Grateful to Almighty God for life and liberty, we establish this Constitutionâ€¦

Vermont, 1777, Preamble: Whereas all government ought to enable the individuals who compose it to enjoy their natural rights, and other blessings which the Author of Existence has bestowed on manâ€¦

Virginia, 1776, Bill of Rights, XVI: Religion, or the Duty which we owe our Creator can be directed only by Reason and that it is the mutual duty of all to practice Christian Forbearance, Love and Charity towards each other.

Washington, 1889, Preamble: We the People of the State of Washington, grateful to the Supreme Ruler of the Universe for our liberties, do ordain this Constitutionâ€¦

West Virginia, 1872, Preamble: Since through Divine Providence we enjoy the blessings of civil, political and religious liberty, we, the people of West Virginia, reaffirm our faith in and constant reliance upon God.

Wisconsin, 1848, Preamble: We, the people of Wisconsin, grateful to Almighty God for our freedom, domestic tranquilityâ€¦

Wyoming, 1890, Preamble: We, the people of the State of Wyoming, grateful to God for our civil, political, and religious liberties.... establish this Constitutionâ€¦

Hmmm, the words "separation of church and state" don't appear in the U.S. Constitution anywhere. Nor do they appear in any of the 50 states' constitutions. A reference to God - and often more than one - appear in the U.S. Constitution and all 50 states' constitutuons.

Yep, maybe the ol' ACLU is indeed wrong!!!

Nate Kiowa Jones · Post by **Nate Kiowa Jones** » Wed Jan 16, 2008 12:01 am

Yeah, but if you tell a lie long enough and load enough the intelligent impaired stupidly enhanced will believe it.

Post by **Ysabel Kid** » Wed Jan 16, 2008 12:03 am

Very true, brother Steve. Very true...

Post by **Old Savage** » Wed Jan 16, 2008 1:05 am

Y Guy, thank you for that reference. Look also at their references in their state constitutions to the right to keep and bear arms. God is not happy about some of the goings on and his arm is not short nor is his patience forever but I am confident that you are in his Grace - I look forward to making your acquaitance again.

claybob86 · Post by **claybob86** » Wed Jan 16, 2008 1:43 am

The aclu has a long tradition of being wrong. Their very name is wrong. It should be the "American Civil Liberties Elimination Union".

guido4198 · Post by **guido4198** » Wed Jan 16, 2008 5:56 am

MAYBE they're wrong...???????????
Thanks for pointing out just how WRONG they are with those references.

Leverdude · Post by **Leverdude** » Wed Jan 16, 2008 6:40 am

ACLU is wrong about alot of things. But I'm not sure about your point.
They certainly reffered to God & used Christian moral principals in forming their new Gov't, but seeing as many came here fleeing religious persecution I kinda doubt they intended to create a Christian state.
Separating religion & state doesn't mean ignore God.

Post by **Hobie** » Wed Jan 16, 2008 7:46 am

The current ACLU leadership has even gotten rid of long term operatives and some have left because the leadership is now so partisan. Another example of a good idea coopted and gone bad...

Post by **Ysabel Kid** » Wed Jan 16, 2008 8:06 am

Leverdude wrote:ACLU is wrong about alot of things. But I'm not sure about your point.
They certainly reffered to God & used Christian moral principals in forming their new Gov't, but seeing as many came here fleeing religious persecution I kinda doubt they intended to create a Christian state.
Separating religion & state doesn't mean ignore God.

Leverdude -

My point is that the nation was founded on religious principles, and the First Amendment was there to protect religion from the state as much as state from religion. The ACLU seems to think that they need to make war on religion - specifically Christians - and drive all references from the public square. This is flat wrong.

I have no problems with a person praticing their chosen religion - or no religion - it is their choice. I think the vast majority of Americans feel the exact same way. But the ACLU now represents those who would force their "religion" - no religion - on everyone else. Again, flat wrong.

Post by **Ysabel Kid** » Wed Jan 16, 2008 8:07 am

Old Savage wrote:Y Guy, thank you for that reference. Look also at their references in their state constitutions to the right to keep and bear arms. God is not happy about some of the goings on and his arm is not short nor is his patience forever but I am confident that you are in his Grace - I look forward to making your acquaitance again.

Hopefully sometime here too before we meet again in Heaven!

J Miller · Post by **J Miller** » Wed Jan 16, 2008 8:55 am

Old Savage mentioned the states constitutions, reference RKBA:

Constitution of the State of Illinois
ARTICLE I
BILL OF RIGHTS

SECTION 22. RIGHT TO ARMS
Subject only to the police power, the right of the
individual citizen to keep and bear arms shall not be
infringed.
(Source: Illinois Constitution.)http://www.ilga.gov/commission/lrb/conmain.htm

Make of it what you want, but when a right is "Subject only to the police power" it is no longer a right, but has become a privilege.

Joe

Leverdude · Post by **Leverdude** » Wed Jan 16, 2008 9:28 am

YK said;

Leverdude -

My point is that the nation was founded on religious principles, and the First Amendment was there to protect religion from the state as much as state from religion. The ACLU seems to think that they need to make war on religion - specifically Christians - and drive all references from the public square. This is flat wrong.

I have no problems with a person praticing their chosen religion - or no religion - it is their choice. I think the vast majority of Americans feel the exact same way. But the ACLU now represents those who would force their "religion" - no religion - on everyone else. Again, flat wrong.

Ok I gotcha & agree.
Sometimes it seems people think Christianity should be to the US what Iran is to Islam. That I disagree with big time. I'm a practicing Christian but have little doubt that men would abuse religion in politics if they were allowed to mix. IMHO Bush already brings his faith into politics too much & in a way that contributes to our current troubles. But thats another subject altogether.

Dastook · Post by **Dastook** » Wed Jan 16, 2008 9:37 am

Nate Kiowa Jones wrote:intelligent impaired stupidly enhanced

Love that discription.

Good research YK. Thanks for posting

C. Cash · Post by **C. Cash** » Wed Jan 16, 2008 9:58 am

Thanks Ysabel. In addition, it is suprising how so many Founders mentioned The Almighty in public speeches/writings, political leaders included. They used the chambers of Congress for Church on Sunday. Mention of God is everywhere on the buildings in Washington D.C. and early documents. Universities taught the Gospel and the Bible. I think George Bush is carrying on a fine tradition that was begun by the Founders, by being open about his faith. He's not forcing anything on anyone, just being honest about what he believes. What those early fellas didn't want was an official State Church that you had to adhere to, ie the Church of England. They wanted individual free will. But they never envisioned a society devoid of any mention of God in the public forum and the opposite is true when examined. Look at their words...they tell a different story than that handed to us by modern media and education.

Blackhawk · Post by **Blackhawk** » Wed Jan 16, 2008 10:41 am

Arkansas Constituation.

5. Right to bear arms.
The citizens of this State shall have the right to keep and bear arms, for their common defense.

Jason_W · Post by **Jason_W** » Wed Jan 16, 2008 11:28 am

Leverdude wrote:YK said;

Leverdude -

My point is that the nation was founded on religious principles, and the First Amendment was there to protect religion from the state as much as state from religion. The ACLU seems to think that they need to make war on religion - specifically Christians - and drive all references from the public square. This is flat wrong.

I have no problems with a person praticing their chosen religion - or no religion - it is their choice. I think the vast majority of Americans feel the exact same way. But the ACLU now represents those who would force their "religion" - no religion - on everyone else. Again, flat wrong.
Ok I gotcha & agree.
Sometimes it seems people think Christianity should be to the US what Iran is to Islam. That I disagree with big time. I'm a practicing Christian but have little doubt that men would abuse religion in politics if they were allowed to mix. IMHO Bush already brings his faith into politics too much & in a way that contributes to our current troubles. But thats another subject altogether.

This is pretty much how I feel as well.

donw · Post by **donw** » Wed Jan 16, 2008 1:05 pm

the aclu was founded by a known avowed communist...

the aclu IS communist/marxist...

the aclu is delibertly misinretpeting the constitution to say "separation of church and state". no where does the constitution say that.

the aclu has done much more damage than good. we have a supreme court justice who is evidence of that.

jnyork · Post by **jnyork** » Wed Jan 16, 2008 2:04 pm

Ysabel Kid, that is a very good posting, I am going to bookmark it for future reference and send it along to some other folks.

I wonder how we can research a similar list of the various state constitutions regarding RBKA? Might be interesting.

Bogie35 · Post by **Bogie35** » Wed Jan 16, 2008 3:50 pm

Separation of Church and State is a myth. It was written in a letter from one of our forefathers (I believe Thomas Jefferson) to a church that was concerned that some Christian denominations were favored more than others by our leaders. The letter was written to assure them that the United States government would not allow another Church of England type influence.

The words "Separation of Church and State" were rarely, if ever, uttered again until 1961 (I think) when the Supreme Court appointed by JFK went looking for an excuse to set the precedent that allowing prayer in schools was a violation of individual rights and against our forefathers wishes. In other words, it was an obscure phrase in an obscure letter that was taken completely out of context in order to fulfill an atheistic agenda.

By the way, George Washington was a Christian and every president since him has been a Christian. AND each and every signer of the Declaration of Independence was a Christian. In fact, I have read several letters passed between signers of the Declaration of Independence which warn that our government MUST be influenced by God's word if we want to be successful.

Our forefathers didn't come to the new world to escape Christ-influenced government, rather they came to escape persecution of various Christian denominations.

Argue if you want, but what I have written is based on an overwhelming collection of historical facts.

Sincerely,
bogie

Leverdude · Post by **Leverdude** » Wed Jan 16, 2008 7:24 pm

The historical fact is they intentionally made it a point to say "ALL men were created equal" & that they saw fit to add an amendment clarifying that congress would not pass laws regarding religion.
They were mostly Christian, but they saw fit to protect the Jews, Muslims, Buddhists & other religions in the constitution.
Theres no need to say theres a seperation of church & state in the constitution because its so obvious.
They sure coulda said no nonChristians in the Gov't if they wanted. They could have chosen to simply go by Biblical law instead of haveing a Constitution at all. Thats how Church run states usually work. You dont need laws & rights because its already done & you get what you get, usually not much.
Its obvious that, tho they were devout Christians they had respect & tolerance for other religions.

Heck, if separation of Church & state is a myth, then which Church runs our country?

We are predominantly Christian but theres scores of Christian churches independant of each other with different Bibles & rules.`

I have no problem with the 10 commandments in a courthouse. But it does seem silly in that several commandments, once punishable by death, aren't even crimes anymore. I just dont sweat the small stuff.

Mixing politics & religion always leads to bigotry & prejudice. It creates an elevated status for the lucky guys & keeps the rest looking over their shoulder.

Honestly I dont think Jesus would even want us to saddle people faith with politics. I dont recall him trying to create a Christian state. Seemed he was more inclined to live faithful to God with whatever society threw at him.
"Give to Caesar what is Caesars & Give God what is Gods" or some such as I recall.

RIHMFIRE · Post by **RIHMFIRE** » Wed Jan 16, 2008 7:59 pm

I'd say they are wrong most of the time!
Each and evey kid should be forced to read the
Declaration of Independence, the constitution, bill of rights
the state constitutions and the federalist papers.....
but we all know that it will never happen.....
because its politically incorrect....

Bogie35 · Post by **Bogie35** » Wed Jan 16, 2008 10:45 pm

Leverdude wrote:
"Heck, if separation of Church & state is a myth, then which Church runs our country?"

You missed my point. My point was that the phrase "Separation of Church and State" was taken out of context. It's original meaning was that, although our government must be influenced by God, no Christian denomination will take priority (i.e. Baptist, Methodist, Catholic, etc.). When taken IN CONTEXT, he obviously DID NOT mean that the guidance of Jesus Christ had no place in governing this country. Quite the contrary.

Every American has the right of free speech, so you don't have to agree with even our forefathers. However, like it or not, believe it or not, accept it or not, it was the obvious and well documented intention of our forefathers that The United States government would adhere to Christian principles even while allowing the freedom of its citizens to practice other religions. Any reasonable study of historical documents will confirm this.

Humbly,
bogie