OT- Mexican Revolution Firing squad!

rangerider7 · Post by **rangerider7** » Wed Dec 09, 2009 1:20 pm

I haven't seen this one before. Reminds me not to go back to Mex, I barely got out of there last time, some 40 odd years ago.

gamekeeper · Post by **gamekeeper** » Wed Dec 09, 2009 1:25 pm

Looks like they're shooting one of their own!

J Miller · Post by **J Miller** » Wed Dec 09, 2009 1:26 pm

THat would be what, late 1800s early 1900s? I wonder what that fellow did to tick off the system?

Joe

FWiedner · Post by **FWiedner** » Wed Dec 09, 2009 2:53 pm

Prolly had a paying job or refused to dump an anchor baby north of the big river.

deerwhacker444 · Post by **deerwhacker444** » Wed Dec 09, 2009 3:35 pm

rangerider7 wrote:I haven't seen this one before. Reminds me not to go back to Mex, I barely got out of there last time, some 40 odd years ago.

We still haven't heard that prison story..!

tomtex · Post by **tomtex** » Wed Dec 09, 2009 4:29 pm

Looks like tax collectors to me .

rangerider7 · Post by **rangerider7** » Wed Dec 09, 2009 4:39 pm

deerwacker444, you will not here that story because they probably still have a warrant out for me. Sorry! I escaped by using another persons name. Thats all I will say.

JReed · Post by **JReed** » Wed Dec 09, 2009 6:22 pm

rangerider7 wrote:deerwacker444, you will not here that story because they probably still have a warrant out for me. Sorry! I escaped by using another persons name. Thats all I will say.

Well if that is the case we will let sleeping dogs lie.

model55 · Post by **model55** » Wed Dec 09, 2009 6:46 pm

Maybe that's what they did to politicians back in the day before they started just sending them north!

jkbrea · Post by **jkbrea** » Wed Dec 09, 2009 7:37 pm

What, no levers.

Post by **Ysabel Kid** » Wed Dec 09, 2009 7:38 pm

game keeper wrote:Looks like they're shooting one of their own!

Nah - that's how Mexico handles illegal immigrants!

kimwcook · Post by **kimwcook** » Wed Dec 09, 2009 7:46 pm

rangerider7 wrote:deerwacker444, you will not here that story because they probably still have a warrant out for me. Sorry! I escaped by using another persons name. Thats all I will say.

Okay, then. I will say we keep getting a little more information each time this subject comes up.

I believe:

Down there during college years. Escaped custody by using another persons name. (I don't recall if it's actually during college years, but close to that.)

Oh, cool photo. I'm surprised the guy isn't secured. I'm not going down without a fight.

model55 · Post by **model55** » Wed Dec 09, 2009 9:47 pm

I'm thinking 7mm mausers at about 20 short paces.Maybe 175 grain bullets.

J Miller · Post by **J Miller** » Wed Dec 09, 2009 10:34 pm

model55 wrote:I'm thinking 7mm mausers at about 20 short paces.Maybe 175 grain bullets.

Doesn't look like they had any problems with insufficient penetration does it?

Joe

mescalero1 · Post by **mescalero1** » Wed Dec 09, 2009 11:26 pm

Anybody else go to college at Ojinaga?

Pathfinder09 · Post by **Pathfinder09** » Thu Dec 10, 2009 12:08 am

VIVA ZAPATA!

FWiedner · Post by **FWiedner** » Thu Dec 10, 2009 7:18 am

mescalero1 wrote:Anybody else go to college at Ojinaga?

Why? Is this a photo of the Varsity Firing Squad?

bogus bill · Post by **bogus bill** » Thu Dec 10, 2009 12:22 pm

I still remember a couple cartoons I seen many years ago when I was a kid, probley in a mad magazine. One was of a mexican fireing squad laughing and pointing at the sweating blindfolded victim who just had his last cigarett that had just exploded in his face!
In the other a guy comes running up just as the squad was going to shoot and says, wait! We deciced to make you el presidenti!

BigSky56 · Post by **BigSky56** » Thu Dec 10, 2009 1:58 pm

Ya unless they had tied my feet those boys would of had a moving target. Maybe this was during Poncho Villa little uprising. danny

Charles · Post by **Charles** » Thu Dec 10, 2009 2:59 pm

Mescalero... Ojinaga doesn't have a college, as you well know. It is was the weekend hang out of the more, shall we say, adventureous Sul Ross students from Alpine. As the Bible says "In those days" (1960-64) There was a gate accross the River from Presidio to Ojinaga, that closed at midnight and didn't open again until 6 am. I spent many a night in Ojinaga. I didn't lack for a warm bed and good company. Tequila was also $2.00 a bottle for the really good stuf (Herradura).

The only real shooting scrap I was involved with was in the back room of a joint called Frank's place. The back room was where all the gambling took place. No blood was drawn, but a shot were fired. The pendejo told me it wasn't loaded and started my way. He stoped when the first one went into the wall above his head. I was fixing to center punch him with the next round and he knew it. Remington Rand 1911A1 loaded with Lyman 452423 over 4.7/Bullsye.

The Mexican police were there, and fined me a round of drinks for the room. I paid for it with the money I just won from the sore loser, so that was OK with me. They thought the whole thing was good sport. Those were different days and different men than today. Today I would be doing ten years in a Mexican prison for even having the rounds in the clip.

Charles · Post by **Charles** » Thu Dec 10, 2009 3:17 pm

" Ya unless they had tied my feet those boys would of had a moving target. Maybe this was during Poncho Villa little uprising. "danny

Danny... not very macho to have to be tied up like a chicken at market to meet your death. YOu are a dead man no matter, so stand straight, look em in the eye. You will still be dead, but at least you will have the respect of those around. When they told your family, they would have learned that you died well like a man. When you run out of options you still have the choice to die with dignity or not.

If you would have tried to run, those Bravos would have shot you low and let you die slow.

There was no Pancho Villa uprising. Pancho Villa was just one figure of many in the Mexican Revolution that lasted from 1910 to 1920. More than a million people died in that blood letting and many millions more displaced. Villa is better known that the rest because of his raid on Columbus New Mexico that send Pershing chasing him all over Northern Mexico. They never caught him. Villa was not a good or admirable man. He was a bandit turned revolutionary, becuase there was more money in revolution. Now Zapata was a man to admire.

Hillbilly · Post by **Hillbilly** » Thu Dec 10, 2009 4:23 pm

The squad looks uniformed somewhat. The guy in the dark suit looks like he has a saber, and he's stationed about were the officer would direct a firing squad from? The victim has a different set of clothes and hat.

Looks like a band of irregulars doing a little "hearts and minds" manipulation to me.

I never could figure what side I'd take... the bandits are as bad as the Federales... it's still that way down there.

Sixgun · Post by **Sixgun** » Thu Dec 10, 2009 4:42 pm

Sure shows how fascinated we all are about death. One day later and there are 22 posts and 434 views!

Neat pic

I have always wondered why so many Mexican buildings have pock marks on 'em.

Seems like they are trying to spread 'em North.

RR-7, I think you need to win some kind of a Nobel prize for picture posting.

-------------Sixgun

BigSky56 · Post by **BigSky56** » Thu Dec 10, 2009 8:58 pm

Charles, theres no dignity in allowing someone kill you and I woudnt run away from them I be going for the squad commander, let everybody say I died trying to kill the enemy not like the jews in WW2. Thats interesting about Zapata I will have to read upon that guy, Poncho always drew my interest cause as you mentioned he got more press. danny

Charles · Post by **Charles** » Thu Dec 10, 2009 9:18 pm

Danny... for the record a "poncho" is the small blanket with a hole in the middle for your head. "Pancho" is short for 'Francisco. Sorta like Frank for Franklin. His real name was Jose Doroteo Aranga Arambula. He was a thief, murderer and wannabe Mexican patriot. He did well at the first two, but fell short on the second.

If you ever have an extra month on your hands read The Life and Times of Pancho Villa by Friedrich Katz. It is 900 pages of very small print.

Executions by firing squad was common as was hanging. The Huerta goverment executed every prisoner it captured. Villa only shot the officers. Mexico was a river of blood. When I was growing up there were still quite a few of the old Revolutionary solders and Soldaderas/Adelitas around. I wish I had paid more attention to them and their stories.

hkfrost · Post by **hkfrost** » Thu Dec 10, 2009 10:28 pm

Charles is right. They would be lined up by the hundreds waiting to be shot, five at a time against the wall. It would
take hours to complete the executions. That picture looks like a scene right out of a Cormac McCarthy book. Great writer by the way.

BigSky56 · Post by **BigSky56** » Fri Dec 11, 2009 12:35 am

Charles, I appreciate your history lesson and will take up some reading on the border conflicts down there that you suggested, but I dont appreciate the spelling lesson. If I had pronounced the name the spelling would of matched. Lets enjoy the exchage of info without worrying about spellcheck. Merry Christmas. danny

Post by **Hobie** » Fri Dec 11, 2009 8:49 am

The Library of Congress has a number of photos of the period.

Borregos · Post by **Borregos** » Fri Dec 11, 2009 10:33 am

Another good one rangerider7

Charles · Post by **Charles** » Fri Dec 11, 2009 12:16 pm

Danny... I didn't mean to ruffle your feathers. Getting poncho and pancho mixed up is a common mistake by non-Spanish speakers. It wasn't just a spell check issue. The words are not spelled the same, are not pronounced the same and don't mean the same thing.

I wasn't trying to play gotcha, but was trying to inform. I thought that is how folks learned things they didn't already know. I am sorry I offended you. Henceforth I will just keep my mouth shut when it comes to you and your level of knowledge of Southwest and Mexican history, language and culture.

I am a life long resident of the U.S./Mexican border and thought that experience might be useful and appreciated by somefolks interested in that part of the world. Wrong again!

GonnePhishin · Post by **GonnePhishin** » Fri Dec 11, 2009 12:43 pm

Gee, maybe the fella was the Pseudo El-Presidente

bogus bill · Post by **bogus bill** » Fri Dec 11, 2009 6:46 pm

Just to show you how little I know, someone had to tell me Manuel Labor was not the presidente of mexico!

Bogie35 · Post by **Bogie35** » Fri Dec 11, 2009 8:49 pm

BigSky56 wrote:Charles, I appreciate your history lesson and will take up some reading on the border conflicts down there that you suggested, but I dont appreciate the spelling lesson. If I had pronounced the name the spelling would of matched. Lets enjoy the exchage of info without worrying about spellcheck. Merry Christmas. danny

Well done Danny!

bogie

mescalero1 · Post by **mescalero1** » Fri Dec 11, 2009 10:10 pm

Charles is of course correct that Ojinaga does not have a college.
" Going to college at Ojinaga " is a euphemism, for visiting a house of ill repute.
Charles tried to convey that in his description of the adventorus students from Sul Ross.
I am sorry if I offended anyone, when I see the stuff from the border, I guess I go back in time, like Charles, I grew up on the border, and perhaps I do not adaquately express myself sometimes.
Sorrry for the indescetion.

El Chivo · Post by **El Chivo** » Sat Dec 12, 2009 2:26 am

I thought a Mexican firing squad had all the shooters in a circle with the subject in the middle.

Bogie35 · Post by **Bogie35** » Sat Dec 12, 2009 7:36 am

El Chivo wrote:I thought a Mexican firing squad had all the shooters in a circle with the subject in the middle.

bogie

Sixgun · Post by **Sixgun** » Sun Dec 13, 2009 8:27 am

Come on guys, we're pushing 800 views. Lets get to 1,000 before the day's end.

You want to see the real thing? Take a visit back here in the east and drive around any of our major cities. Most bars and street corners hold these rituals regularly.

---------------Sixgun

Nixterdemus · Post by **Nixterdemus** » Sun Dec 13, 2009 9:07 am

Nice pics. Thanks for step back in time along w/first hand knowledge.

Charles · Post by **Charles** » Sun Dec 13, 2009 12:06 pm

Mescalero.... I don't think you offended anybody. You are correct that there were high times on the Border in the days of yore. Now that I am old grey and stiff, I wouldn't do those things nor recommend that others do them. But for a young man who is young, limber and can jump a three rail fence, the border in those days was a place that could give all the adventure a young fool would want. Your chances of survival were reasonable good.

Not to many folks understand liife on the Border, then or now. If is an experience rather than a matter of the mind. It takes that experience to understand that the difference between "poncho" and "pancho" really does make a difference.

Buena Suerte Amigo

DixieBoy · Post by **DixieBoy** » Sun Dec 13, 2009 1:21 pm

Charles - I've always enjoyed your insights about the border. There is so much incredible history there. Count me in as one who is hooked on the history of the region.

I've been swamped with my reading about the Comanches and Kiowa this past year, but soon I'm going to resume reading about those border years of 1910 - 1920. There's a book I've heard about that I'm thinking about picking up. It's called "The Bloodiest Decade: 1910 - 1920 and the Mexican Revolution." Or something close to that title.

Any ideas for learning more about the area and the times ? - DixieBoy

Bill in Oregon · Post by **Bill in Oregon** » Sun Dec 13, 2009 1:28 pm

Very interesting thread. Special tip of the hat to Charles.
Regarding dying well before a firing squad, there is a clip somewhere of Castro's commies executing prisoners in Cuba, and there is a big fellow in white who gives a grand wave to the boyos before crumpling into the pit. Unforgettable.

J35 · Post by **J35** » Sun Dec 13, 2009 1:58 pm

mescalero1 wrote:Anybody else go to college at Ojinaga?

Nope I went to Nogales, what a education!

Have fun

J35 · Post by **J35** » Sun Dec 13, 2009 2:03 pm

Charles wrote:"
There was no Pancho Villa uprising. Pancho Villa was just one figure of many in the Mexican Revolution that lasted from 1910 to 1920. More than a million people died in that blood letting and many millions more displaced. Villa is better known that the rest because of his raid on Columbus New Mexico that send Pershing chasing him all over Northern Mexico. They never caught him. Villa was not a good or admirable man. He was a bandit turned revolutionary, becuase there was more money in revolution. Now Zapata was a man to admire.

Yep and to rub salt in the wound, the fine city of Tucson decided they needed a statue of the good and admirable man.

http://www.city-data.com/picfilesv/picv65.php

Charles · Post by **Charles** » Sun Dec 13, 2009 4:40 pm

Dixieboy... I think the book to which you make reference is "The Texas Rangers and the Mexican Revolution - The Bloodiest Decade 1910-1920" by Harris and Sadler.

It is a good book (even though written by a pair of New Mexicans) with the focus being on the spill over into Texas and the Rangers response. It was not the most glorious period of Ranger history. They killed about 300 people without benefit of judge or jury. Some no doubt had it coming, but many of them were just in the wrong place at the wrong time.

This book will give you a very accurate account of "El Plan de San Diego" and all of the hell it caused.

Early 20th Century Ranger history is pretty sordid in spots. They were used as a goon squad by the governors often for their own political end. They were the "cat's paw" of the wealthy anglo land owners in deep South Texas to keep the "Meskins" in their place. In the mid-30 the Rangers were removed from under the orders of the Texas Adjudent General who took his orders from the Governor and placed in the newly form Texas Department of Public Safety. A move to keep the rangers from being used for political oppression.

I have ancestors who were Rangers and friends who were and are Rangers. Their history is very interesting and like all history has it's ups and downs.

History of the border area goes way back to Spanish colonial days and has always been a rough and violent place. Our history has been formed by both United States and Mexican history. It still is a rough today with the Mexican Army and the Cocaine Cowboys slugging it out with belt fed weapons, grenades and RPGs. It is logical to wonder why any sane person would live here by choice. It is sort of an alternate universe with it's own rules and realities and those who were raised here really don't fit in anyplace else. Off the border, and you are a square peg in a round hole. On the border and it is a love/hate relationship. Go figure!

DixieBoy · Post by **DixieBoy** » Mon Dec 14, 2009 12:02 am

Charles - Thanks ! That's the book.

I still hold the Texas Rangers in very high regard. I understand that there were times when the Rangers were "used" as you noted, for political and even economic ends by the powers that be. It may be that I'll never be able to shake the romance of the early Rangers' times out of my head. I've read all that I can about John Coffee Hays and the crews who came after him too.

As shooters we owe alot to the Rangers and their legacy, given that Sam Colt avoided folding up his tent, thanks to the interest of a young Texas Republic. The stories of Hays and the boys charging into large numbers of Comanches with their new Colts, with Hays yelling "Crowd 'em boys, powder burn 'em...", well, how do you get that image out of your head ? Incredible stuff.

Moving forward to the time of the photo which started this thread, the history might not involve the Comanche to any great degree any longer, but it is still captivating. When I talk with students in my American History classes I try to provide a picture for them of how much the troubles down along the border influenced large scale political decisions during those times. The Zimmerman Telegraph might have had much less importance if the U.S. - Mexican border hadn't been on fire for years by then.

Skeeter Skelton's kid, Bart, wrote one of his columns in Guns and Ammo a few years back, telling the story of an old Luger (or a Mauser maybe?) which he was shown. The piece belonged to a Mexican originally, who had come by the pistol when the Germans were hanging around, trying to stir the pot as much as they could during the 19-teens along the border. Of course, they had their own agenda. And so it goes.

I've long thought that a really good filmmaker, with a devotion to the real story, could make a blockbuster of a film about those days along the border. You wouldn't have to make up a thing; the real story is plenty wild all by itself.

Thanks again for chiming in here. And all the rest of you guys who've added something to what us non-border dwelling folks now know about the border. - DixieBoy

DixieBoy · Post by **DixieBoy** » Mon Dec 14, 2009 12:11 am

Ooops...thought that post didn't go through. - DixieBoy

rangerider7 · Post by **rangerider7** » Mon Dec 14, 2009 9:58 am

Charles I'm getting ready to get the same book. I just got through with "Lone Star Lawmen" The Second Century of the Texas Rangers. It was a good read. Many years ago I was close to a writer named Robert Stevens. He has written many books and articles on the Texas Rangers. It was his entire life, the study of the Texas Rangers. I learned a lot. He was a very straight forward writer and he spoke often of the good and the bad ranger. The worst period of time was certainly during the "Mexican Revolution" and the "Bandit Wars" along with the later period of the Ferguson's. The rangers were expanded by leaps and bounds with very little insight into the backgrounds of the recruits. All history is interesting to me. Some of my relatives were Texas Rangers as well as my wife's. I worked part time as a LEO. Reading, doing, and listening is always the best way to learn in my opinion. You learn so much more by listening than talking.

Charles · Post by **Charles** » Mon Dec 14, 2009 10:45 am

Dixieboy... Like you I don't understand why the life of Jack Hays (Devil Jack) has not been made into a movie. No screen writer could make up the stuff he did. He was a small, thin, very mannerly, unassuming man who wore a leather cap. Nobody who met him for the first time could believe this man was the fighting deamon he truly was.

John S. "Rip" for is another man whose life is remarkable by anybody's standards. His edited autobiography "Rip Ford's Texas" by Oats is a must read for anybody interested in Ranger and Texas history. My Great Grandfather served under Ford in his 1858 campaign against the Comanche and was in the battle where Iron Jacket was killed. I have a copy of Ford's original hand written report of that battle. It is printed in the book, but I like to read about it in Rips hand.

Rangerider.. The reign of "Ma and Pa Ferguson" as governors of Texas is a very interesting part of Texas history. It was laden with corruption and self interest. As a boy in the early 1950's I met Ma Ferguson.

My uncle was First Assistant Attorney General of Texas under Price Daniels and I was visiting him in Austin. We were riding around some of the old grand homes of Austin when we passed a stately old two story brick home and an old woman in a sun bonnet was working in the flower beds. My Uncle told me that woman was Ma Ferguson and used to be Governor of Texas. That name didn't mean anything to me.

He made the block and we got out of the car and walked up to her. My Uncle, who knew her, said "Governor, I would like to introduce you to my namesake and nephew" He said, "Charlie, it is about time for a break come in the house for some cold limonade". In side the house we sat at her kitchen table and a "colored" lady brought up all glasses filled with iced limonade. She and my Uncle made some small take about politics and I just took it all in.

It wan't until years later than I knew who Ma Ferguson was and he place in Texas history. On that same trip, I had lunch in the Capitol with my Uncle, Price Daniel, Jessie James (State Treasurer) and Governor Allen Shivers. Pretty heady stuff for a skinny kid from the border. As you know Price would later go one become Governor. I guess his legacy was the state stales tax.

How I do love this great state of Texas!!! After six generations we call it home. One branch of my family (Boatright) was a part of the original Austin colony. The rest were tardy, coming in 1942.

rangerider7 · Post by **rangerider7** » Mon Dec 14, 2009 11:24 am

Charles, my great grandfather came to Texas in 1867 and my wife's in 1835. I remember as a cub scout marching down Congress street to the Capitol in Austin to honor a new statue for Boy Scouts of America on the walkway to the front door. Governor Allen Shivers came out and made a speech. I felt pretty important that day. We later move off the small acreage we had in Austin to Fort Worth. My two cousins from Austin dated Price Daniel's sons while in high school. It's a small world sometimes. I could never live any where else.

Charles · Post by **Charles** » Mon Dec 14, 2009 12:31 pm

Rangerider.. Thus far, in Texas I have lived in Brownsville, Harlingen, Alpine, Brownfield, Booker, Odessa, Pampa, Haskell and El Paso. My family roots go to Coleman, San Saba and Hays county.

Although Texas is a large place, if I sit down and talk with just about anybody sooner or later, we will run accross some kind of connection to people and places. A couple of weeks ago, I was talking with a fellow and found out my first deer was killed on some property owned by his Grandfather in 1960. The property is in Hunt Texas and still belongs to the family. Tis indeed a small place inspite of it's large size.

It is hard for non-Texans and short term Texans to understand what is means to be a part of this great's states history, expansion and settlement. My wife says it best... "We belong here". It takes generations for roots to go that deep.