H110/W296 & Primer questions

[J Miller]

OK, here's a couple questions for youse guys.

>>Why do most of you state H110 rather than Win 296? It's the same stuff just packaged in different bottles. Price is the same at my local gun shop.

>>I've read that the Win WLP primers for magnum and standard loads are fine for H110/296, and then again I've read you really really really must use a true magnum primer.
So, I got some Win WLPs and I got some Federal 155 LP mag primers, which is best to use in the .45 Colt with heavy (300gr and up) jacketed and lead bullets?

I'm asking cos I've scraped together all my change and tomorrow I'm pretty sure I'm gonna go pick me up a pound of H110 or Win 296.
Don't really have enough coin to buy both powder and primers.

H110 or W296 = $24.99 per pound
Primers LP = $33.99 per thousand

Oh, just for your information the local gun shop guy told me primers are going to take a 15% price jump at the first of the year. I asked him: What's new about that?


Joe

[Hobie]

OK, here's a couple questions for youse guys.

>>Why do most of you state H110 rather than Win 296? It's the same stuff just packaged in different bottles. Price is the same at my local gun shop.

Because I use H110 because I can't get W296 in the Winchester bottle.

>>I've read that the Win WLP primers for magnum and standard loads are fine for H110/296, and then again I've read you really really really must use a true magnum primer.
So, I got some Win WLPs and I got some Federal 155 LP mag primers, which is best to use in the .45 Colt with heavy (300gr and up) jacketed and lead bullets?

I know folks who use the WLP primer with perfect satisfaction. I use the CCI LP magnum primers with perfect satisfaction.

I'm asking cos I've scraped together all my change and tomorrow I'm pretty sure I'm gonna go pick me up a pound of H110 or Win 296.
Don't really have enough coin to buy both powder and primers.

H110 or W296 = $24.99 per pound
Primers LP = $33.99 per thousand

Oh, just for your information the local gun shop guy told me primers are going to take a 15% price jump at the first of the year. I asked him: What's new about that?


Joe

I wouldn't be surprised at any price increases as the greenies, Chinese, and devaluation of the dollar cause the prices to continue to climb on everything.

[Rimfire McNutjob]

Primer prices were generally $41 to $45 per thousand at the local gun show last weekend. There were some outliers of course ... Rem 7-1/2 for $55/k.

[1886]

CCI mag. primers with beacoupe neck tension will PROBABLY provide the best results. A healthy crimp would not hurt. H-110/296 like about 10% compression. As always, accuracy testing with a chrony will tell the story. Hope you and your wrist have fun. 1886.

[J Miller]

Well these questions go with my other thread of recoil in the .45 Colt. Lots of suggestions for H110. But since I've never used any 296 / H110 so I have to ask questions. I've read a few stories where the stuff didn't go off, just blew the bullet out of the case and left a big wad of unburned powder. I'd really like to avoid that.

1886,
I'm planning on shooting this out of my rifles. I generally do not use ball powders out of revolvers. I've burned out too many forcing cones with it.
So you don't think the Federal 155 maggies will work?


I suspect I should grab a few thousand primers then since this store has them at a more reasonable price.

Joe

[1886]

Joe, I and many I know, have had the best results with the CCI mag. primers with 296/110 but your Feds may very well be fine. The primers are only one factor in the equation. Plenty of neck tension facilitated by the properly sized expander and about 10% powder compression are very important. H-110/296 likes to be hot rodded. Great powder when used as designed. Please let us know, 1886.

[J Miller]

Joe, I and many I know, have had the best results with the CCI mag. primers with 296/110 but your Feds may very well be fine. The primers are only one factor in the equation. Plenty of neck tension facilitated by the properly sized expander and about 10% powder compression are very important. H-110/296 likes to be hot rodded. Great powder when used as designed. Please let us know, 1886.

1886,
I'm one of those here that has chanted the neck tension mantra till I'm blue in the face. So I understand exactly what you are saying there.

The 10% compression kind of causes me some questions though. Here is exactly the loads suggested on the other thread.
300gr Jacketed bullet over 23 grs of H110. OK, how do I determine weather or not that has the compression you are suggesting?

I bought a thousand Fed LP Mag primers a couple years ago by accident.
No way to get rid of them except to shoot 'em up eventually. Since funds are way tight they are going to have to do.
Unless I have a stray box of CCI maggies stashed. I'll have to look.

Joe

[Lefty Dude]

I use WLP's, because they are hot and can be used as Mag's also. They ignite my 296 just fine. I use both 110 and 296. 296 because at a garage sale I bought a three pounder of 296 for $8.00.
I just bought a sleeve of 5000 WLP's. I reload for CAS/SASS and use lots of LP's as I shoot 44-40 in my Rifle & 44 special in my Colts.
When I reload for my Rossi/44 or B92/44 & Ruger SBH, it's 296/110 or Unique & WLP's.
I stock one LP primer.
For SPP's I use Winchester LP mags. for all my casual small caliber loadings.

When loading for the top, I would use the suggested receipe. This includes the specific primer listed. Other wise back off the powder 15% and work up from there.
I have a Winchester 1985 reloading data manual. For 296 powder a note states; "for such loads using 296 powder we strongly recommend the use of a Winchester magnum primer and a heavy crimp". Failure to follow this procedure could result in poor ignition.

[1886]

Joe, just seat the bullets deeply enough to provide the compression. As you know, seating the bullets deeper than your data suggests will likely raise pressure. Use your chrony to arrive at the recommended velocity. 1886.

[1886]

Joe, Another thought if we are going to really develop this topic, try "hard" brass. Starline may be the best. 1886.

[J Miller]

Joe, just seat the bullets deeply enough to provide the compression. As you know, seating the bullets deeper than your data suggests will likely raise pressure. Use your chrony to arrive at the recommended velocity. 1886.

No gottum chrongraphy thing. All my Starline brass is sorta kinda used.
Will dig out some least used stuff.

Lefty Dude,
I have almost every one of the Winchester data booklets from 1973 to when Hodgdon took 'em over. They never listed any .45 Colt data with 296. And Winchester don't make a plain mag LP primer any more. Like you said the WLP is supposed to work with both. I have lots of 'em.

Joe

[1886]

I use WLP's, because they are hot and can be used as Mag's also. They ignite my 296 just fine. I use both 110 and 296. 296 because at a garage sale I bought a three pounder of 296 for $8.00.
I just bought a sleeve of 5000 WLP's. I reload for CAS/SASS and use lots of LP's as I shoot 44-40 in my Rifle & 44 special in my Colts.
When I reload for my Rossi/44 or B92/44 & Ruger SBH, it's 296/110 or Unique & WLP's.
I stock one LP primer.
For SPP's I use Winchester LP mags. for all my casual small caliber loadings.

When loading for the top, I would use the suggested receipe. This includes the specific primer listed. Other wise back off the powder 15% and work up from there.
I have a Winchester 1985 reloading data manual. For 296 powder a note states; "for such loads using 296 powder we strongly recommend the use of a Winchester magnum primer and a heavy crimp". Failure to follow this procedure could result in poor ignition.

Just about every manufacturer recommends their products but this does not necessarily suggest their product is "best" for the task at hand. How often have we heard that the Fed 215 primer is the primer for large, "overbore" rounds. Is it? I used to play with a .416 Rigby and several Weatherby overbore rounds. I always used the Fed 215 primer with each of these rounds because "everybody" knew it was the primer for these large rounds until someone more learned than I suggested the Win. large rifle mag. primer. My results improved immediately with the Win. primers. 1886.

[Lefty Dude]

Joe;
The statement was at the bottom of the page, as a general note for all loadings of 296 in all calibers. I made no mention of specific caliber.

You ask the question, use what you want.

I use remington brass, for tight bullet crimps. Remington is the hardest of most.

[Hobie]

I have read that ball powders are not appropriate for compressed charges. I do not load compressed charges of ball powders. I have not found any recommended manual maximums of ball powders I use in cartridges I shoot that are compressed charges.

[SteveR]

Hi Joe,

I use H110/W296 in my 44mag and 454, I have loaded some for my Ruger 45, but they are all max loads. I use LPM primers, brand doesn't matter, I picked up some Wolf LPM and they work fine also.

Why waste your money on W296/H110? I found 2400 to be the best all around powder and I can load up or down with it. W296/H110 needs to be loaded to max all the time with a good crimp, neck tension isn't enough to get it to burn properly.

You will only get about 75-100 fps with the W296/H110 over 2400, but be stuck loading all of your 45 loads with LPM and max loads with W296/H110.

Just my .02,

Steve

[Modoc ED]

Doesn't anybody use Unique?

[dr walker]

Joe- I never tried the Federal primers, but I have had no problem igniting with Winchester primers. I load and shoot 44 magnum with 300 gr bullets and H110 powder. I started using H110 and never needed to try 296. I have used the Lee factory crimp die with satisfaction, but have reloaded without it and as long as neck tension is good and tight evrything works well.

Modoc ED- most of the 44 loads I shoot are Unique or Universal Clays (about the same), much softer kicking range time.

[J Miller]

OK, before we diverge from the topic totally I have 2400, and Unique but they are not the topic.

I've never used H110/296 and was considering giving it a try. I wanted some notes and comments from those who have used it.

The topic "is" full house romper stomper loads for my .45 Colt rifles.

Also I don't have 2400 data for 300+ gr really heavy bullets. I'm looking, but so far not finding.

The idea is to work up a load using a 300gr jacketed bullet that will really scream out of a rifle.

OK, now back to our regular scheduled discussion.

................................................................

SteveR,

Here is some of the sample lead bullets other forum members have sent me.
Dry Creek Keith 350gr SWC
Lee 350gr bullet with tumble lube groves.

Don't have many but I don't have 2400 data for them either.
And it seems to me that using too fast a powder for these bullets is kinda wasting them.

Joe

[Buck Elliott]

As has been hinted here: H-110/W296 is a specialty powder. I use it for dedicated "serious" loads, in high-pressure cartridges. For other purposes, there are numerous powders that will fill the bill.

The 110/296 twins require high loading density, tight neck tension and heavy crimp, and heavy-for-caliber bullets to perform at their best. FWIW, I use CCI mag primers in pistol cartridges; LR primers when called for

Most of the incidents of unburned 110/296 I have heard of result from using it in the wrong application -- particularly when using too light a bullet for the caliber/case.

[Idiot]

I've read that the Win WLP primers for magnum and standard loads are fine for H110/296, and then again I've read you really really really must use a true magnum primer.

I load full power 44 Magnum cartridges using H110 and Winchester LP Standard/Magnum primers and they have always performed well. The Winchester LP Standard/Magnum primer is my primer of choice for all of my large pistol cartridges no matter what the powder (I use W296, H110, Power Pistol, A#9, Blue Dot, Unique, and others). I only use Unique in 45 Colt and only load to 45 Colt specs, not 45 Colt +P, so I can't speak to 45 Colt, but I cannot imagine how full power 44 Magnum loads would be any different than 45 Colt +P loads when it comes to primer usage.

[Buck Elliott]

I've read that the Win WLP primers for magnum and standard loads are fine for H110/296, and then again I've read you really really really must use a true magnum primer.

I load full power 44 Magnum cartridges using H110 and Winchester LP Standard/Magnum primers and they have always performed well. The Winchester LP Standard/Magnum primer is my primer of choice for all of my large pistol cartridges no matter what the powder (I use W296, H110, Power Pistol, A#9, Blue Dot, Unique, and others). I only use Unique in 45 Colt and only load to 45 Colt specs, not 45 Colt +P, so I can't speak to 45 Colt, but I cannot imagine how full power 44 Magnum loads would be any different than 45 Colt +P loads when it comes to primer usage.

Wonderfully obfuscatory.......

[J Miller]

As has been hinted here: H-110/W296 is a specialty powder. I use it for dedicated "serious" loads, in high-pressure cartridges. For other purposes, there are numerous powders that will fill the bill.

The 110/296 twins require high loading density, tight neck tension and heavy crimp, and heavy-for-caliber bullets to perform at their best. FWIW, I use CCI mag primers in pistol cartridges; LR primers when called for

Most of the incidents of unburned 110/296 I have heard of result from using it in the wrong application -- particularly when using too light a bullet for the caliber/case.

Buck,
Thanks, that pretty much simplifies things.

Joe

[Modoc ED]

Joe - Have you given any thought to going to Hodgdon's Web Site or investing in Hogdon's Reloading Manual?

[J Miller]

Ed,

I have the latest annual manual, are they actually making real loading manuals still?

Joe

[w30wcf]

Joe,
Hodgdon used the WLP primer in the .45 Colt in compiling the data on their website.
There is heavy bullet data on 2400 and other powders in the Hodgdon 26 manual that you have.

w30wcf

[J Miller]

Joe,
Hodgdon used the WLP primer in the .45 Colt in compiling the data on their website.
There is heavy bullet data on 2400 and other powders in the Hodgdon 26 manual that you have.

w30wcf

Gonna have to dig it out and look. If they used WLP primers then I shouldn't have any troubles at all.

Joe

[1886]

I have read that ball powders are not appropriate for compressed charges. I do not load compressed charges of ball powders. I have not found any recommended manual maximums of ball powders I use in cartridges I shoot that are compressed charges.

Some ball powder are slow burning, others are fast burning. Deterrents are added.
H-110/296 a slow powder, needs compression for uniformity and safety. Look at it this way, when the hammer is dropped, the primer blast COMPRESSES the powder charge. If the primer when ignited, is doing anything but igniting the powder charge, it is wasting it's energy. Hence poorer uniformity/ more erratic with reduced charges. H-110/296 is so slow burning that I will not consider any load that is not at least 90% dense. Bad things will eventually happen when slow powders are not densely loaded. It is called detonation. So in this instance, compression is good, it equals load density. As always, refer to your loading manuals and follow their advice closely. 1886.

[SteveR]

Hi Joe,

I understand what you want now, stomper loads, 350 gr hard cast out of a 45 colt rifle load. I don't have any experience loading 350gr in 45colt, but have loaded quite a few in 454, 360 gr actually.

Looking at all the reloading books I have, none have anything for 350gr in 45 colt, Rugar or otherwise. There is a bunch for 454 though. The books I have are Speer, Hornady, Lyman cast, Hodgdon's pamphlet, and AA pamphlet.

Hornady's says for 300 gr max W296 21.7gr for 1300fps. For 2400 max 18gr for 1150fps.

All loads use WLP primers. But do have a heavy crimp to keep bullets from backing out during recoil.

Next possibility is use 454 data and try to down load, but that would be tricky and I wouldn't advise it.

If you did then 2400 would be the safest bet, start at 10% under starting load for 300gr and work up from there.

Sorry i dont have more for ya.

Steve

[SteveR]

Joe,

Length may be a problem too, not sure though.

Steve

[Idiot]

I've read that the Win WLP primers for magnum and standard loads are fine for H110/296, and then again I've read you really really really must use a true magnum primer.

I load full power 44 Magnum cartridges using H110 and Winchester LP Standard/Magnum primers and they have always performed well. The Winchester LP Standard/Magnum primer is my primer of choice for all of my large pistol cartridges no matter what the powder (I use W296, H110, Power Pistol, A#9, Blue Dot, Unique, and others). I only use Unique in 45 Colt and only load to 45 Colt specs, not 45 Colt +P, so I can't speak to 45 Colt, but I cannot imagine how full power 44 Magnum loads would be any different than 45 Colt +P loads when it comes to primer usage.

Wonderfully obfuscatory.......

Clear as mud?

[1886]

I am anxiously awaiting for leverluver to opine! 1886

[J Miller]

Joe,

Length may be a problem too, not sure though.

Steve

Both my OM Ruger BH and my Win 94AE Trapper will chamber and function with rounds at 1.75". At that point though there is zero room for error.

If I do run into the length problem I'll just drop back to some 300gr jacketed bullets and load 'em .................... , but not to exceed ........

I've shot 300gr cast before with the max 2400 load out of Hodgdons #26. Them are some snappy loads. But seem to work well.

Joe

[SteveR]

Hi Joe,

Found some more information for you, its from Paco's article on the site, this is for a Win94 action type:

"16.5/2400 under a 350 grain cast bullet was fine in my Winchester giving just at 1450 fps, and what a penetrator....out of the Ruger it went 1020 fps. When reloading 340 and higher weights in the 45 long Colt case one must be careful...the length of the bullet decreases the powder room...and pressures can skyrocket. Remington years ago tested 38 special wadcutter loads with 3.4 grains of Bullseye...pushing the bullet deeper into the case an 1/8th inch at a time till it bottomed out. The 147 grain wadcutter bullet is long and takes up a lot of internal space. At the bottom of the case the pressure was so high it could scatter a Python. Same kind of thing can happen with very heavy 45 bullets. So take care, reach any load with those bullets carefully, and with good reloading practices.... "

The rest of the article:
http://www.leverguns.com/articles/paco/ ... vergun.htm

I found some more for you from Paco's article, (Thanks Paco!!):

"ALL LOADS TESTED IN MY 1892S.....WINCHESTER AND MARLIN 94S.
(Pressure levels also effected by which rifles are used)
* 260 Keith 12/Unique 30,000 CUP for 1600 fps
* 260 Keith 18.5/2400 26,000 CUP for 1666 fps
* 260 Keith 20/2400 30,000 CUP for 1770 fps
* 260 Keith 22/2400 32,600 CUP for 1870 fps
* 260 Keith 23.5/296 22,000 CUP for 1599 fps
* 260 Keith 25/296 25,000 CUP for 1710 fps
* 260 Keith 26/296 30,000 CUP for 1850 fps
* 260 Keith 27/296 32,000 CUP for 1940 fps
* 260 Keith 26 H110 29,900 CUP for 1855 fps
* 260 Keith 27/H110 32,500 CUP for 1965 fps
* 300 grain WFN/LBT 24/H110 32,500 CUP 1705 fps
* 300 grain Lyman 191 (sized down to .451) 20/2400 31,900 CUP 1650 fps
* 300 grain Lyman 191 “ 25/H110 32500 CUP 1710 fps
* 300 WFN 27/H110 46,000 CUP/for 92s 2180 fps
* 340 SSK/WFN 24/H110 33,000 CUP 1680 fps
* 335 CAST PERF/WFN 26/H110 50,000 CUP (for strong 92s) 1910 fps (like a 45-70)
325 JHPs and JSPs
* 23/H110 1715 fps 31,500 CUP
* 20/2400 1675 fps 33,000 CUP
* NEI/Keith 325 27/H110 50,000 CUP (for 92s) 2121 fps (again like a 45-70)
350 grain WFN/LBT (CAST PERFORMANCE BULLETS)
* 16.5/2400 1450 fps/ 30,000 CUP
* 21/H110 1590 fps/ 32,500 CUP
* 24/H110 1660 fps/ 48,000 CUP

AS I SAID DEAR READER I WOULD BE CAREFUL WORKING UP TO THESE LOADS EVEN THOUGH THEY SEEM WELL BELOW THE LEVEL OF THE 94S IN PRESSURE.

EVEN WITH THE STRONG 1892S...WORK UP TO THEM SLOWLY. BUT THE 45 LONG COLT IN STRONG RIFLES IS A EXCEPTIONAL POWERFUL SMALL CARRY/WOODS RIFLE..................GOOD SHOOTING....."



I have pretty much stopped using 296/110 and have been using 2400, but in the 454, 296/110 for top loads its works well.

Steve

[J Miller]

Steve,

Thanks for the data. I found some new unprimed .45 Colt cases last night and was able to slip the big 350s I have right down in them. So much for using factory new brass without sizing it.
Using the crimp grove on the 350gr Keiths I got just a hair under 1.75" oal. With the 350gr Lees only the nose is exposed, the entire body is inside the case at 1.75. I'm going to see how much powder space I have in them today.
It's really doubtful if I can get 16.5grs of 2400 in there, and if I can it will be with no space to spare.
We shall see.

I'd forgotten Paco's articles. There's just so much out there I can't remember it all.

Joe

[CaptainFinn]

I've used H110 and Winchester WLP primers in both .44mag and .45 Colt 'Ruger' level loads for about the past ten years.

The WLP Primer is said to be at 'magnum' levels--they don't make a Large Pistol Primer in magnum. I've had great success with the H110, no ignition problems. A bonus is that the H110 charges can be doubles in a .44 or .45 case, there isn't enough room.

According t0 my Hogden manual from a few years back (when they published data from all companies, not just their own ) H110 and 296 have similar velocities but H110 at an equal charge had slightly less pressure. Don't know or not, I've never used the 296.

I shoot a 300 GR LNGC in .45 colt over 24 grains of H110 in Starline cases--this is thru a Rossi 92, and Starline rims seem to be a tad bigger, never had a failure to extract with Starline brass, while Winchester brass seems to be hit-or-miss in this regard in my rifle.

Never had any ignition problems witht he H110 and the WLP's. A few years ago I used some standard CCI LP's and loaded up about 50 rounds using the same powder/bullet/case combo. They shot fine in the fall, but just after x-mas in some 20 F weather, I noticed quite a bit of unburned powder in the barrel after shooting. I've heard some ball powder can be affected by cold temps.

[SteveR]

I'd forgotten Paco's articles. There's just so much out there I can't remember it all.

Joe

I know what you mean!! I forgot till this morning.

Those big bullets dont leave much room for powder, I think you can get the 2400 in there, but not sure on the 296/110.

Be sure to crimp them good, I always crimp my 454 loads, havent had any pull out. But a couple did move just a hair, but that was max loads.

Take care,
Steve