Shoulder Arthritis & Reduced Loads

Haycock · Post by **Haycock** » Fri Jan 11, 2008 3:07 pm

A while back I posted about issues I was having with not being able to shoot some of my guns any more since they caused my arthritic shoulder (old clavicle break near the joint done-in by 24 months of acute Lyme disease) too much pain (real dramatic pain too... like pops you can hear from 10 feet away)...

So, I'm shooting calibers now that don't wreck me, like .357 in a couple of 1894Cs, but I can't help but think that there are .30-30 loads out there which can bring recoil down to the .357 level and remain effective enough on deer to be usable out to 100 - 150 yards...

Plus, I've been looking at a couple of Winchester 94s a friend has differently than I ever did before (never owned one, never really grabbed me)... somehow these are really appealing to me... dunno... maybe I'm maturing

One of them is this XTR model that just made me feel all funny inside when I held it... all a-quiver...

Anyway, I looked into commercial loads and the only reduced recoil one I could find is a Remington "Managed Recoil" load that looks like this:

125gr Core-Lokt PSP, 2175fps MV, 1313ft-lbs ME

What I'm wondering is... will this punch like a .357?

I really hate this whole situation and line of questioning... makes me feel like a real p**sy... but it is what it is. I'm a young man with the right shoulder of an old one.

Anyway (ego-whining done

)... how do the forumites out there with similar issues deal with this?

Jason_W · Post by **Jason_W** » Fri Jan 11, 2008 3:16 pm

Without knowing how much recoil your particular shoulder can take it's hard to say. I do know that the Savage 340 bolt action I borrowed last year was quite pleasant with the 150 grain handloads I was using.

Other questions for you:

Does a nice thick quality recoil pad help at all?

Does it have to be a lever? We all love them, but semi-autos do soak up a bit more recoil.

Edit: How big are the deer where you hunt? Browning does (or at least used to) chamber a BLR in .22-250. All .22's a controversial for deer, but a handload with a premium bullet might do the trick if you pick you shots.

Haycock · Post by **Haycock** » Fri Jan 11, 2008 3:29 pm

Jason_W wrote:Without knowing how much recoil your particular shoulder can take it's hard to say. I do know that the Savage 340 bolt action I borrowed last year was quite pleasant with the 150 grain handloads I was using.

Other questions for you:

Does a nice thick quality recoil pad help at all?

Does it have to be a lever? We all love them, but semi-autos do soak up a bit more recoil.

In order:

Let me put it this way... my .243 boltie made the shoulder pop and crack at the bench after about a dozen rounds... my 12 gauge shotgun is okay for a while shooting skeet, but after a while the same thing starts to happen... my .357 1894C is really, really comfortable for as long as I want to shoot it.

Only pad I ever tried was a slip-on job... helped a little but nothing earth-shaking.

Not interested in going to semi-auto actions for centerfire or rimfire (do have an Auto-5 in the closet, though).

J Miller · Post by **J Miller** » Fri Jan 11, 2008 3:30 pm

Haycock,

I have three suggestions for you.

First: Learn to shoot rifles left handed. It's a pain in the behind, but at least you'll still be shooting.
Leverguns are naturals for shooting lefthanded.

Second: Try a levergun chambered for .45 Colt. The standard load out of a rifle is very mild in the recoil department.

Third: Quit worrying about looking like a whimp. Pain, caused by injuries is something most of have or are dealing with.

JOe

gcs · Post by **gcs** » Fri Jan 11, 2008 3:40 pm

Have much of the same problems though not as severe, yet,
The managed recoil will work fine on deer, a "Limbsaver" pad will also do wonders for recoil, you can even get them in a slip on style, try shooting in a more upright position from the bench to let your shoulder roll back more while shooting.
And take a few aspirin before you start,lol,
Good luck.

Jason_W · Post by **Jason_W** » Fri Jan 11, 2008 3:44 pm

J Miller wrote: Third: Quit worrying about looking like a whimp. Pain, caused by injuries is something most of have or are dealing with.

JOe

Amen to that. If it hurts, it's not fun anymore. Isn't that about 95% of the reason why we all shoot and hunt.

Haycock · Post by **Haycock** » Fri Jan 11, 2008 4:51 pm

J Miller wrote: Third: Quit worrying about looking like a whimp. Pain, caused by injuries is something most of have or are dealing with.

JOe

Appreciate the sentiment, Joe... guess I'm just having trouble adjusting to the prospect of decades of physical decline. I've always been pretty athletic and active and I'm 3 years shy of 40... just takes a guy by surprise at my age is all...

I guess my question is really being driven by my interest in these 94s you all go on about all the time

I know they come in .45LC but there are so many more choices if .30-30 is an option as well...

Haycock · Post by **Haycock** » Fri Jan 11, 2008 4:53 pm

gcs wrote:Have much of the same problems though not as severe, yet,
The managed recoil will work fine on deer, a "Limbsaver" pad will also do wonders for recoil, you can even get them in a slip on style, try shooting in a more upright position from the bench to let your shoulder roll back more while shooting.
And take a few aspirin before you start,lol,
Good luck.

gcs - I'll try one and see. Like I said the only pad I used was an older slip-on and I'm sure they've come a really long way.

J Miller · Post by **J Miller** » Fri Jan 11, 2008 4:57 pm

Haycock,

What part of the world are you in? If we are close enough we could try a few things out and see how they work for you. That way you'd have an idea first hand without spending money you don't have to.

Joe

Haycock · Post by **Haycock** » Fri Jan 11, 2008 6:39 pm

Eastern PA..... but sometimes I'm in Arlington Heights, IL for business. How far from the Chicago area are you?

J Miller · Post by **J Miller** » Fri Jan 11, 2008 6:46 pm

Haycock wrote:Eastern PA..... but sometimes I'm in Arlington Heights, IL for business. How far from the Chicago area are you?

I'm in Springfield. Center of the state. If you ever get down this way let me know and we can go pop a few.

Joe

gundownunder · Post by **gundownunder** » Fri Jan 11, 2008 7:21 pm

Joe is right about the 45, they are almost as nice to shoot as the 357 and they punch a MUCH bigger hole in things. A few of the guys at my gun club have them and they love them, and I've shot a few and I love them too.
I think you might find that if you download a 30-30 to the point where recoil matches the 357 you will have reduced the 30-30 to the same weight bullet at the same velocity as the 357 but you will have sacrificed bullet diameter to do it. thereby making that load less effective on game.
Truth is I had to make the same decisions as you for the same reasons and I came to the conclusion that I would get more out of the 357 than I would out of the 30-30, and if I ever get to hunting something that my 357 cant handle then I'll go out and get a 45LC
As for being a whimp at 40, dont worry about it, you're gonna be an even bigger whimp by the time you hit 50

Sorry mate, I couldn't resist

Just as an after thought I wonder if a Winchester 94 in 38-55 with target loads might work for you. It uses heavier bullets at lower velocity so recoil shouldn't be unpleasant and its a rifle cartridge, not a pistol cartridge.

Haycock · Post by **Haycock** » Fri Jan 11, 2008 7:29 pm

J Miller wrote:
Haycock wrote:Eastern PA..... but sometimes I'm in Arlington Heights, IL for business. How far from the Chicago area are you?
I'm in Springfield. Center of the state. If you ever get down this way let me know and we can go pop a few.

Joe

That's about 3.5 hours drive from Chicago..... not bad. Next time I have a chance to lengthen a biz trip by a day I'll PM you and let you know. I appreciate the invitation very much.

Haycock · Post by **Haycock** » Fri Jan 11, 2008 7:44 pm

gundownunder wrote:Joe is right about the 45, they are almost as nice to shoot as the 357 and they punch a MUCH bigger hole in things. A few of the guys at my gun club have them and they love them, and I've shot a few and I love them too.
I think you might find that if you download a 30-30 to the point where recoil matches the 357 you will have reduced the 30-30 to the same weight bullet at the same velocity as the 357 but you will have sacrificed bullet diameter to do it. thereby making that load less effective on game.
Truth is I had to make the same decisions as you for the same reasons and I came to the conclusion that I would get more out of the 357 than I would out of the 30-30, and if I ever get to hunting something that my 357 cant handle then I'll go out and get a 45LC
As for being a whimp at 40, dont worry about it, you're gonna be an even bigger whimp by the time you hit 50
Sorry mate, I couldn't resist

No worries.... the truth hurts.... just like my da*n shoulder!

Just as an after thought I wonder if a Winchester 94 in 38-55 with target loads might work for you. It uses heavier bullets at lower velocity so recoil shouldn't be unpleasant and its a rifle cartridge, not a pistol cartridge.

Could be, but I'm just not attracted to (what are in the modern world) boutique cartridges... though I have also thought about trying to find a .25-35 to shoot to see how that felt. Just not so sure about its effectiveness on deer......

Is the practical effectiveness of.45 on deer really that much greater than .357?

Dave · Post by **Dave** » Fri Jan 11, 2008 9:51 pm

I have loaded some Speer 135 grainers over 35.5 of Varget for my 30-30. The Speer is a deer bullet and that is not a top load. I was very surprised how little recoil was produced by this load. Sierra says with Varget the charge range is 30.6-37.0. The recoil was similar to a 357 carbine and I am sure it will kill a deer.

Haycock · Post by **Haycock** » Fri Jan 11, 2008 10:06 pm

Dave wrote:I have loaded some Speer 135 grainers over 35.5 of Varget for my 30-30. The Speer is a deer bullet and that is not a top load. I was very surprised how little recoil was produced by this load. Sierra says with Varget the charge range is 30.6-37.0. The recoil was similar to a 357 carbine and I am sure it will kill a deer.

Sounds like it in the same class as the Rem managed recoil load. Did you clock it?

Malamute · Post by **Malamute** » Fri Jan 11, 2008 11:18 pm

Something else to consider, the 30-30 in an octagon barrel rifle feels softer shooting than a carbine with the same load due to the weight. so, in other words, for a given level of recoil that you can tolerate, you can have more power. I also happen to have an octagon rifle I'd part with.

I second the suggestion of a good pad. I;ve used mostly Pachmayer decelerators. They look good, and are soft. They make a noticable difference on everything I've put them on.

Also agree with the bench technique of sitting up perfectly straight when shooting. I'm sure the 12 gauge has more recoil than the 243, but it sounded like you could shoot it longer before it hurt. You can also arrange a rest for shooting standing up. The Brits did this for sighting in and practice with the big African caliber guns. Whatever you do, don't lean into the gun when you shoot.

Dave · Post by **Dave** » Sat Jan 12, 2008 12:21 am

Haycock wrote:
Dave wrote:I have loaded some Speer 135 grainers over 35.5 of Varget for my 30-30. The Speer is a deer bullet and that is not a top load. I was very surprised how little recoil was produced by this load. Sierra says with Varget the charge range is 30.6-37.0. The recoil was similar to a 357 carbine and I am sure it will kill a deer.
Sounds like it in the same class as the Rem managed recoil load. Did you clock it?

Info from the Sierra manual for Varget is:

30.6 gr = 2100 fps

32.2 gr = 2200 fps

33.8 gr = 2300 fps

35.4 gr = 2400 fps

37.0 gr = 2500 fps

I would guess even a bottom load would drop a deer or hog with a neck shot or double lung shot on a deer. I have become a big believer in the neck shot.
A guy gave me about 3 boxes of the Speer 130's and they shoot well out of my Marlin and Winchester. I would be happy to send you a handful if you want to try them.

LeverBob · Post by **LeverBob** » Sat Jan 12, 2008 1:06 am

Howdy Bro...here's some info:

Go on the Leverguns home site & punch in the the "Leverguns at home & in the field" section. It's on the right tool bar. You'll find letters & pics from overseas brothers like Andy Law who is one of the gentlemen who frequents So. Africa. He is a Brit & regularly hunts So. Africa.. He is a hard core levergunner & shoots all his plains game with a Marlin .357 Mag. scoped.

Your Marlin should do real well on dear etc. Law has taken Warthog & Impala... You can too...and enjoy your shooting & hunting like you are supposed to.

Besides...the .357 is waaaay underreated. I am not in your situation, however it seems that diving into that rifle could be your hunting salvation.
Besides, those 1894C's are a blast to shoot.

IMHO...

LeverBob
NRA Endowment member & proud old' guy.

Haycock · Post by **Haycock** » Sat Jan 12, 2008 8:04 am

Malamute wrote:Something else to consider, the 30-30 in an octagon barrel rifle feels softer shooting than a carbine with the same load due to the weight. so, in other words, for a given level of recoil that you can tolerate, you can have more power. I also happen to have an octagon rifle I'd part with.

I second the suggestion of a good pad. I;ve used mostly Pachmayer decelerators. They look good, and are soft. They make a noticable difference on everything I've put them on.

Also agree with the bench technique of sitting up perfectly straight when shooting. I'm sure the 12 gauge has more recoil than the 243, but it sounded like you could shoot it longer before it hurt. You can also arrange a rest for shooting standing up. The Brits did this for sighting in and practice with the big African caliber guns. Whatever you do, don't lean into the gun when you shoot.

Malamute,

What kind of octagon are you talking about wanting to part ways with?

The bench-shooting comments are really interesting..... when I'm at the bench I always lean into the gun, put my left arm around my chest underneath it and hold my right arm at the bicep.... which has the effect, I guess, of actually preventing my shoulder from rolling back with the recoil because I'm locking it in.

I'll have to try the sitting-straight up thing, for sure.

Haycock · Post by **Haycock** » Sat Jan 12, 2008 8:09 am

Dave wrote:
Haycock wrote:
Dave wrote:I have loaded some Speer 135 grainers over 35.5 of Varget for my 30-30. The Speer is a deer bullet and that is not a top load. I was very surprised how little recoil was produced by this load. Sierra says with Varget the charge range is 30.6-37.0. The recoil was similar to a 357 carbine and I am sure it will kill a deer.
Sounds like it in the same class as the Rem managed recoil load. Did you clock it?
Info from the Sierra manual for Varget is:

30.6 gr = 2100 fps

32.2 gr = 2200 fps

33.8 gr = 2300 fps

35.4 gr = 2400 fps

37.0 gr = 2500 fps

I would guess even a bottom load would drop a deer or hog with a neck shot or double lung shot on a deer. I have become a big believer in the neck shot.
A guy gave me about 3 boxes of the Speer 130's and they shoot well out of my Marlin and Winchester. I would be happy to send you a handful if you want to try them.

Dave - Thanks for the info and the offer, but I'm still assembling the pieces and parts to put together a reloading bench. When its up and running I'll pick some of them up and give your load a try. Hopefully that'll be soon, as I just built my bench and have a press, some cast bullets, some brass, etc. I just haven't put it all together yet.

Haycock · Post by **Haycock** » Sat Jan 12, 2008 8:13 am

LeverBob wrote:Howdy Bro...here's some info:

Go on the Leverguns home site & punch in the the "Leverguns at home & in the field" section. It's on the right tool bar. You'll find letters & pics from overseas brothers like Andy Law who is one of the gentlemen who frequents So. Africa. He is a Brit & regularly hunts So. Africa.. He is a hard core levergunner & shoots all his plains game with a Marlin .357 Mag. scoped.

Your Marlin should do real well on dear etc. Law has taken Warthog & Impala... You can too...and enjoy your shooting & hunting like you are supposed to.

Besides...the .357 is waaaay underreated. I am not in your situation, however it seems that diving into that rifle could be your hunting salvation.
Besides, those 1894C's are a blast to shoot.

IMHO...

LeverBob
NRA Endowment member & proud old' guy.

LeverBob,

Yup. They sure are a hoot to shoot, and I've been shooting mine! I'm diving in already and don't plan to come up for air! At the same time, I'd like to be able to experiment with other leverguns like the Win 94s I came across recently, and I'm trying to build my knowledge of reloading and get a rig up and running so I can tailor-build what I need.

I've seen Andy Law's write-ups..... neat stuff, no doubt.

Malamute · Post by **Malamute** » Sat Jan 12, 2008 9:11 am

Haycock, I have a Winchester Canadian Centenial rifle made in 1967, 26" barrel, full mag, all blue furniture, plain straight grain wood. It has had about 10 rounds shot thru it. Has the box and papers, including the hang tag from the lever. It's a regular half cock safety. Has the crescent butt, but it's not as tight of a crecent as the older guns, so fits more people better. (I don't like crescent butts in general, but this one is OK)

Another consideration regarding the 30-30 compared to the 357 is you will have a flatter trajectory in the 30-30, giving a longer range without needing to figure holdover.

The 26" barrel gives higher velocity and less noise also. William Iorg posted a lot on shootersforum about his results with various 30-30 guns and loads. He feels the 26" guns give velocities close to the 30-30 AI, without any gunsmithing, and generally better accuracy than the carbines and trappers.

Haycock · Post by **Haycock** » Sat Jan 12, 2008 12:12 pm

Malamute wrote:Haycock, I have a Winchester Canadian Centenial rifle made in 1967, 26" barrel, full mag, all blue furniture, plain straight grain wood. It has had about 10 rounds shot thru it. Has the box and papers, including the hang tag from the lever. It's a regular half cock safety. Has the crescent butt, but it's not as tight of a crecent as the older guns, so fits more people better. (I don't like crescent butts in general, but this one is OK)

Another consideration regarding the 30-30 compared to the 357 is you will have a flatter trajectory in the 30-30, giving a longer range without needing to figure holdover.

The 26" barrel gives higher velocity and less noise also. William Iorg posted a lot on shootersforum about his results with various 30-30 guns and loads. He feels the 26" guns give velocities close to the 30-30 AI, without any gunsmithing, and generally better accuracy than the carbines and trappers.

Thanks Malamute, but I'm gonna pass on that. I just can't get all fired up about a 26" barrel... they just feel wrong to me in terms of balance, though I certainly do appreciate your opening the door.

oldgerboy · Post by **oldgerboy** » Sat Jan 12, 2008 7:07 pm

You have received some great advice. The Speer bullets and 125 grain Sierras (either hand loaded or purchased in Federal cartridges) are great for PA deer. The new Limbsavers, Decelerators, etc are super for recoil elimination.

I shoot a .30-30 with a Limbsaver pad and have used nothing but 125 grain bullets for about 40 years ... shoulder troubles also.

I live in Central PA so there is a chance we could get together and you could try my rifle.

Send me an e-mail if you're interested.

Gerry

Haycock · Post by **Haycock** » Sun Jan 13, 2008 8:56 am

oldgerboy wrote:You have received some great advice. The Speer bullets and 125 grain Sierras (either hand loaded or purchased in Federal cartridges) are great for PA deer. The new Limbsavers, Decelerators, etc are super for recoil elimination.

I shoot a .30-30 with a Limbsaver pad and have used nothing but 125 grain bullets for about 40 years ... shoulder troubles also.

I live in Central PA so there is a chance we could get together and you could try my rifle.

Send me an e-mail if you're interested.

Gerry

PM sent.

Was wondering... how fast are your 130gr handloads going?

tcomer · Post by **tcomer** » Sun Jan 13, 2008 9:47 am

Well, I don't hunt and I shoot my levers for fun. Right now I'm experimenting with reduced loads in my Winny 30-30. Last batch I used 8.8grs of Unique behind a 170gr Laser Cast bullet. Recoil is similar to my light 357 loads with my Puma 92. Those are 158gr cast bullets with 7.7grs of True Blue. Accuracy in my 30-30 wasn't very good. About 3â€

mescalero1 · Post by **mescalero1** » Sun Jan 13, 2008 12:53 pm

Haycock,
Don't know how much expense you are willing to go into, I don't think they are expensive..... about 40.00 dollars.
Try one of the hydraulic recoil absorbers, they go inside the butt, and are unseen.
When the rifle is fired, recoil is transfered through the hydraulics ( like a shock absorber ) I believe it lengthens the time lapse of the recoil, making it less severe