getting a Concealed Carry permit

brucew44guns · Post by **brucew44guns** » Thu Oct 22, 2009 7:31 am

I know for a fact that many folks carry a loaded firearm in the glove box or the console, maybe under the drivers seat, of their car or pick-up, just a little insurance, that if you were out on the road with a water pump out, a fan through the radiator, or a blown tire, you might have a better set of odds if some thugs showed up to take your wallet.

My good friend pointed out that this is Concealed Carry, and a guy could be in a world of hurt if the law happened by, and checked your rig and spotted such iron as stated. So I finally made arrangements to get the paper work done, the training requirement, and pay the dues, to get the license. Any of you guys regret doing this?, are you glad you did it?, any worries of special scrutiny coming your way as a result of getting it?. Maybe you could tell of an instance where being prepared like this probably saved a big incident from happening to you in some emergency break down or event away from home.

Just would hate to get busted, and lose any gun rights because I was illegal, but hate the loss of obscurity as well. All those yellow forms have cancelled any obscurity anyhow. Got a paper trail a mile long as it is.

Kansas Ed · Post by **Kansas Ed** » Thu Oct 22, 2009 8:06 am

The wife and I both got ours and never regretted it. Haven't used it, hope I never have to. Like you, I keep one in the car but have the right to pack it on my person should I feel like I'm in a bad situation. The problem around here, is that for some reason a lot of the convinence stores have no carry signs posted...seems funny since they are the most often robbed at gunpoint huh? I got my C&R before I got my concealed carry so I figure I was already profiled by the antis in office.

Ed

Ranch Dog · Post by **Ranch Dog** » Thu Oct 22, 2009 8:37 am

I conceal carry any time I leave the ranch (my home). South Texas and the US Highways leading to the major cities in Texas have become unsafe IMHO due to drug/gang related activities. I live where I do but must come and go through Houston once a week. It is very nice to know I'm responsible for my own protection.

I simply don't feel the threat of the paper trail. It establishes my authority to carry, that's the bottomline. I'm not sure about Kansas, but the Texas certification might license you to carry but it does not qualify you to carry. It is not CC training. Take the additional time to seek proper training and become skilled in the art of CC defense. Nothing would be worse that a villain disarming you and shooting you and your family with your weapon. Know what you are doing and have a mindset to do what is needed when and if the time comes.

I had a fellow worker stop to take a phone call as he was about to leave a parking lot. A van with four Hispanic gang bangers pinched him in. Two bailed out, lightning quick and one placed a Glock 19 under his jaw bone. He refused to respond to the verbal demands so the guy struck him in the head. As he delivered the punch, the bad guy turned to look and at bad guy #2 which had just said "kill him". This slight diversion of attention was what my coworker was looking for along with the recoil of the punch. He drew his Glock 19 and shot the first guy in the chest twice, he twisted around and shot the second guy in the chest twice. Funny thing was as BG #1 was falling, he fell through the path of one of the bullets and it went through his chin, out the back of the his head and through his buddy's chest. You have got to love premium bullets. The driver yelled at BG#4 to "get the chopper" and the guy in the back of the van opened up with a fully automatic AK47. The AK47 was spraying bullets and BG #2, though mortally wounded, had his fate sealed because as he tried to crawl back in the escaping van he was shot with the AK and fell back in the road. The good guy just continued to concentrate fire on the source of 7.62X39. You can't survive this without training. The good guy doesn't have a military or police background, he is a total geek that trains to draw and use his weapon.

This was about stealing a Lexus. I know many might say, it isn't worth it but the bottomline is that you and any occupants would be killed. They are going to drag you out of the vehicle in front of the world, kill you, and no one is going to intervene.

The bad guys. Many, many law abiding citizens consider that these fellows are armed but they assume their weapons are junk and they are not practiced. Nothing could be further from the truth. They shoot the best (if you are stealing weapons, why would you still anything other) and they shoot. Their drug income buys them the best.

I know that CC applications and licensing is at a all time high. I just hope the training that develops a proper mindset for carry and use follows.

TedH · Post by **TedH** » Thu Oct 22, 2009 8:49 am

Some states, such as Missouri, allow conceled carry of a weapon in your vehicle without any type of permit so long as you are legal to posess it. A permit is required here to carry on your person. But as Ranch Dog points out the training to go along with your CCW is of the utmost importance. When I got my CCW I thought the training was most inadequate, but I do have a background in law enforcement so my ideas of what should be taught to newbies would take far to long of a class for most folks. I would suggest additional training above what is required by state law for getting a CCW. Having the proper mindset is as important as the gun in your hand for surviving a bad situation.

Don't worry about the paper trail. They already know what you have.

2ndovc · Post by **2ndovc** » Thu Oct 22, 2009 8:53 am

Bruce,

I got mine almost four years ago, in fact I have my first renewal next month.

I didn't carry my pistol much at first but there were two incidents that changed my mind.
First was a drive by shooting on a job we were working two doors away. I had been there only an hour earlier but one of my employees was still there. Saw the whole thing from the top of the ladder he was working on.
That was the last day we did any work on that house. I billed the owner for the work we had done and told him good luck.

The second was an afternoon when this "fellow" just wandered in the front door of my office building. I asked if I could help him with something and he told me that he was "Just looking". I mentioned that we were builders and there's nothing here to look at.
Still wouldn't leave until I went to my desk, opend the drawer where I kept a Hi-Power, picked up the phone and told him I was calling the police.
He knew darned well I had "something" in that drawer and started out the door but I was annoyed with myself that I didn't have it on me! Started carrying after that.

Now after two years of working for another company we have gotten a reverse on the concealed carry company ban and I have my Glock with me every day again.
Feels good.

jb

DBW · Post by **DBW** » Thu Oct 22, 2009 9:08 am

I choose not to beg any government for the right to protect my life. I reject seeking a permit, which by definition and meaning implies that the government grants you the right (which contradicts Natural Law).

Finally, I ask myself if George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, Ben Franklin, Thomas Paine, John Adams, Blackstone or Cicero would ask (beg) for a permit.

Doc Hudson · Post by **Doc Hudson** » Thu Oct 22, 2009 10:14 am

Possession and carry of weapons is indeed a Natural Right -- the exercising of which without permit can land you in the calaboose. It is a good idea to temper political belief with a bit of practicality.

I've held a CCW permit for the biggest part of 30 years, in two different states.

One of the few intelligent laws Mississippi has ever enacted was that portion of the Concealed Weapon Permit Act which declares that a person's vehicle is an extension of their home and any firearm legal for one to possess in one's home may be carried in one's vehicle without being guilty of concealed carry without a permit.

As for when I carry, it is like I once told a fellow who threatened to cut me long deep and repeatedly next time he caught me out of uniform and off company property< "You'd be a darned fool to ever bet your life on me being unarmed."

Once back in the mid-90's, my then wife and I went down to Jackson, MS on a shopping trip. We were parked pretty far out from the department store and it was gettting dark when we came out.

As we approached the car, i spotted four teens, dressed in the baggy pants and ragged finery of gangs, approaching. We placed our purchases in the trunk and when I turned, I saw them getting close and heading in our direction. I pushed Marcia behind me, shifted my cane to my left hand and waited.

They fanned out into a loose semi-circle and approached to just beyond arms reach. One asked me for a cigarette. I dropped my cigarette, ground it out and responded, "Sorry, I don't smole."

In response, the punk pulled out a butterfly knife and said, "Why don't you gimme some money to buy some wid, old man?" I suppose he figured a fat middle-aged man with a cane and a middle-aged woman in tow would be an easy mark.

I drew my Colt Stainless Officers' ACP from it's beltslide holster and flicked off the safety as I brought it to bear on the kid with the knife.

Apparently all four of those young fellows suddenly remembered a very important appointment far, far away and hurried to make it. I did nothing to delay them. I put Marcia in the car, entered myself and then we left the area at the best possible speed.

If I'd been unarmed, we would have been robbed at the very best case, and in the worst case, we'd have been cut up, robbed, beaten, and possibly raped or murdered.

Since you can never tell when a criminal attack will come, you must be as well prepared as possible at all times. That means you can't just pack iron sometimes and think you are safe unarmed at other times.

I'd

kimwcook · Post by **kimwcook** » Thu Oct 22, 2009 10:22 am

DBW, I think you're comparing apples to oranges.

I've had a CPL for years even though as a LEO I can pack almost anywhere without one. There are reasons for this, but for brevity I won't go into it here.

I believe there are at least two reasons people who legally can get a CPL, should. One, it would show the powers to be they should think twice about taking those rights away. Second, if everyone packed that could, it would create a mind thought amongst those that prey on society that I don't know if this individual or the ones around are armed and I might get hurt if I do something stupid.

L_Kilkenny · Post by **L_Kilkenny** » Thu Oct 22, 2009 10:35 am

I've tossed the idea around trying to get my CCW. Iowa is a "may issue" not "shall issue" state and my county sheriff isn't overly gun friendly. So the odds aren't good.

I'll also agree with the points made about it being a natural right but I'm not about to risk a felony conviction on the issue. I do carry whenever legal and usually have a gun in the truck. Stored legally. As much for impromptu hunting and plinkin than for SD. I also avoid bad areas and bad times.

LK

mescalero1 · Post by **mescalero1** » Thu Oct 22, 2009 11:02 am

When I have to renew, it will be my third time, never regretted it.
Keep in mind, that in any future gun ban scenario, you will already have a permit, and be " grandfathered " in.

Ranch Dog · Post by **Ranch Dog** » Thu Oct 22, 2009 11:12 am

kimwcook, I agree with your statements. Everyone one of us on this forum knows what our rights are with respect to firearms but this is not one area to conduct a constitutional battle. In a defensive shooting, I'm not going to be defending my right to carry, I will have to defend my response, but without the permit I would be in dark, deep hole. I'm talking about walking down the street and shooting a fellow. In my auto and home different rules apply (here in Texas).

In my adult life, I've been involved in a number of situations that required me to draw my weapon a couple of times and shoot once. I've had a weapon drawn on me twice and shot at once. I'm still here but decided it was time to stop being lucky and get to being good. A sad fact is that security in this country is in the toilet. No matter where you live, things can go south in a second.

Since I've been licensed for CC, I'm a much calmer person in a stressful situation. My training has caused me to think better and beyond. I've never thought much about breaking a fellow's nose if I got irritated but I do now. I simply concede or walk away from any confrontation, I refuse to provoke or continue. That simple little license has caused me to take a different tack in my life. I respect it.

Doc Hudson · Post by **Doc Hudson** » Thu Oct 22, 2009 11:50 am

Ranch Dog wrote:Since I've been licensed for CC, I'm a much calmer person in a stressful situation. My training has caused me to think better and beyond. I've never thought much about breaking a fellow's nose if I got irritated but I do now. I simply concede or walk away from any confrontation, I refuse to provoke or continue. That simple little license has caused me to take a different tack in my life. I respect it.

You got that right brother!!

Packing iron, especially when legally permitted places a higher standard of behavior on our shoulders. if unarmed, a confrontation could lead to a fist fight. When one or both parties are armed, the same confrontation could turn lethal.

As armed citizens, we have a legal and moral responsibility to avoid conflicts that might become lethal if avoidable. As Heinlein wrote, "An armed society is a polite society/" I've found myself making a soft response in instances when my first thought was to knock some yahoo's head off, because I knew that if I started a fight that turned lethal, I'd be at fault.

Do let us all hope and pray for a society that is both armed and polite. Until that comes about, I'll settle for being armed and prepared.

Post by **Hobie** » Thu Oct 22, 2009 12:07 pm

Bruce,

I have a friend who is a UPS driver. He was investigated in conjunction with the theft of firearms from UPS by another employee. When interrogated he was amazed at the amount of information the interrogator had about him. Having trained in interrogation I know that you want to know the answer to most of the questions you ask. Over multiple interviews you can build a picture of the truth. Anyway, these folks knew about ALL his firearms including some private purchases, they knew his entire employment history including working off the books for a farmer as a kid, and they knew other things (some of which he said he didn't remember until reminded!).

For myself, with government possession of my fingerprints, dental records, and DNA, I don't think I gave up anything more by getting the CHP. Some folks never buy a gun through a shop, pay for everything in cash, etc. and think nobody knows about them and so don't want to bow to the man and get the CHP. They are kidding themselves.

bogus bill · Post by **bogus bill** » Thu Oct 22, 2009 12:09 pm

Bruce, I havent closely read all the replys above but yours. When you said "your rig" are you per chance hinting that you drive commercial someone elses truck? Different laws for that. But normaly speaking go ahead and get your permit if you can. Dont know your laws in your state. I have a ccw here in utah, and I legaly carried on my job 35 years before that.
My personal belief and my code to myself is summed up by the very old saying, "I would rather be tried by 12 than carried by 6".

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Thu Oct 22, 2009 12:19 pm

brucew44guns wrote:I know for a fact that many folks carry a loaded firearm in the glove box or the console, maybe under the drivers seat, of their car or pick-up, just a little insurance, that if you were out on the road with a water pump out, a fan through the radiator, or a blown tire, you might have a better set of odds if some thugs showed up to take your wallet.

Even if this is all you PLAN to do, and even in states where it actually IS legal (the 'vehicle is your home' states), what happens when your car dies in a bad place, and you have to leave it to go buy a battery or whatever, or even leave it overnight. You are either going to leave a GUN in the vehicle (not a good idea, and you could still get in trouble if it were stolen by thugs and they later used it), or walk/ride away with a GUN on your person.

I'd get the permit, although I do agree with DBW that it is a capitulation to the 'state' that makes me feel in one sense I've sold out my principles a bit.

OTOH, the more CCW permits your state sees in citizen's hands, the less likely they are to pull anti-gun nonsense. I'm glad to be from a state with just shy of 400,000 CCW's out of a population of 6,000,000. If you only count the adults, that's probably about 1 in 12 who have a CCW license.

DBW · Post by **DBW** » Thu Oct 22, 2009 12:30 pm

It seems that on every firearms forum that I belong to and this subject comes up I'm the odd man out most if the time. More often than not some permit holder says I'm courting a problem by carrying without a permit. The fact is that I choose nor to carry a firearm if it requires abandoning my principles and ideology for the sake of hopeful security. I suppose I'll continue to rely on trusting God to keep an eye on me. Any altercation I'd face would likely be with the criminal element which I endeavor to avoid.

Sucks to be me when I'm hard pressed to find and know people who share the same ideals our Founders held. Such is life my father would say.

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Thu Oct 22, 2009 1:04 pm

Kansas Ed wrote: The problem around here, is that for some reason a lot of the convinence stores have no carry signs posted...seems funny since they are the most often robbed at gunpoint huh?
Ed

I tend to politely and in writing notify those companies that I will avoid doing business with them until they change their 'victim disarmament zone' policies. Ohioans for Concealed Carry - http://www.ohioccw.org/ actually has little stickers members and others can put beside the 'gun free zone' ones on such businesses.

Doc Hudson · Post by **Doc Hudson** » Thu Oct 22, 2009 2:37 pm

DBW wrote:It seems that on every firearms forum that I belong to and this subject comes up I'm the odd man out most if the time. More often than not some permit holder says I'm courting a problem by carrying without a permit. The fact is that I choose nor to carry a firearm if it requires abandoning my principles and ideology for the sake of hopeful security. I suppose I'll continue to rely on trusting God to keep an eye on me. Any altercation I'd face would likely be with the criminal element which I endeavor to avoid.

Sucks to be me when I'm hard pressed to find and know people who share the same ideals our Founders held. Such is life my father would say.

I have to admit that I agree with you in principle. But I'm not willing to go to jail because of that principle.

If we were sitting at a table over a cup of coffee, I might admit to having carried sans permit. But I'd never make such an admission on a public forum.

if you are legally entitled to keep and bear arms, you are needlessly endangering your liberty by not following the law, even if you think the law foolish. Lets face it, there are plenty of foolish laws, 55 mph speed limits, seatbelt requirements, etc. But we obey thos foolish laws or pay the consequences.

If you are willing to risk being made a felon on principle, be my guest. IMNSHO, the risk ain't worth it.

Voting is another God given right, but we have to register to do it. i have no problem "registering" the fact that I will be exercising my God given right to self-defense. I don't see it as asking permission. I'm letting the State know that I'm a free man and will defend myself.

Nate Kiowa Jones · Post by **Nate Kiowa Jones** » Thu Oct 22, 2009 2:40 pm

DBW wrote:It seems that on every firearms forum that I belong to and this subject comes up I'm the odd man out most if the time. More often than not some permit holder says I'm courting a problem by carrying without a permit. The fact is that I choose nor to carry a firearm if it requires abandoning my principles and ideology for the sake of hopeful security. I suppose I'll continue to rely on trusting God to keep an eye on me. Any altercation I'd face would likely be with the criminal element which I endeavor to avoid.

Sucks to be me when I'm hard pressed to find and know people who share the same ideals our Founders held. Such is life my father would say.

I feel your pain and for years before Texas went CCW I did the same thing. But even then only because there were some gaps in the laws that provided a defense in the event things went bad.
I admire your princples but just keep in mind, it can become very expensive to fall on that sword. Can you afford it?

"Life is like a sheet sandwich. The more bread ya got the less sheet you gotta eat!"

Ranch Dog · Post by **Ranch Dog** » Thu Oct 22, 2009 4:20 pm

AJMD429 wrote:Ohioans for Concealed Carry - http://www.ohioccw.org/ actually has little stickers members and others can put beside the 'gun free zone' ones on such businesses.

I went to the web site and looked at the cards, absolutely awesome!

Pete44ru · Post by **Pete44ru** » Thu Oct 22, 2009 6:20 pm

An armed society is a polite society.

My concealed carry permit was printed in 1776.

'nuf said.

.

dkmlever · Post by **dkmlever** » Thu Oct 22, 2009 6:25 pm

I had one in Mass when I lived there years ago and got one in CO as soon as they made it a "shall issue state'. I have had to renew mine. I carry only about 50% of the time....heck the other 50% I am home with guns close by. A good way to feel more safe.

Sixgun · Post by **Sixgun** » Thu Oct 22, 2009 6:40 pm

Here in Pa., you pay $43, wait a month or so and get your license

Don't go anywhere without it, whether I'm allowed to or not. The world is a very volatile place and while I'm not afraid to die, I ain't dying "stupid".

------------Sixgun

Doc Hudson · Post by **Doc Hudson** » Thu Oct 22, 2009 6:55 pm

Pete44ru wrote:An armed society is a polite society.

My concealed carry permit was printed in 1776.

'nuf said.

.

I was going to let this comment slide but I just can't do it. it is comment like that which gives the anti-gun lobby cause to point out the ignorance of us gun cranks.

Pete, when was the last time you read the Declaration of Independence? Here's a link to a copy fo the Declaration of Independence http://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution ... amendments No mention is made of the right to bear arms, nor are there any mention of Crown attempts to interfere with the Colonists right to bear arms.

If you are referring to the Constitution, which originally made no mention of the right to bear arms, you missed the date by 11 years. The Constitution was written in 1787 and not ratified for almost two years, still with no mention of the right to bear arms.

If you are referring to the Second Amendment, you missed the date by 15 years! The Second Amendment was not ratified until 1791!

Believe me, nothing would please me more than for the Federal Government and all 50 states to adopt Vermont's CCW Policy in which proof of citizenship is proof of one's right to bear arms. Until that happens, CCW permit laws are in force.

Courts have upheld their validity and their Constitutionality. So we must either obey the laws or pay the consequences.

Refusal to apply for a CCW permit does not mean the Federal and State Governments don't know about you. Re-read Hobie's post about his friend's interrogation. Big Brother is watching and has been watching us for years. So rest assure that when you proudly proclaim on a public forum that you don't need no stinkin' CCW Permit to legally pack a gun, somewhere, some government agency is making note of it in their database.

So make up your mind, you will either obey the law or pay the consequences.

You get a license to drive a car. You get a license to do business. You pay state and Federal Taxes. (If you don't please don't admit it on a public forum!!) So what is the freaking big deal about applying for a CCW Permit?

With a CCW Permit, all you have to do is mind your business, obey the laws, and use good sense, and if you have to use lethal force to defend yourself, you don't have to worry about the cops. if you don't have a CCW Permit and use a firearm to defend yourself, the cops will slap cuffs on your wrists and haul you in just as fast as they do the perps you were defending yourself from. No thanks, i don't need the extra hasle! And don't waste your breath talking about avoiding "bad areas" or 'bad people." It can't be done. I'll go the CCW route and use caution that any shooting I'm involved in is a righteous one. Then all I'll have to worry about is survival, not prosecution.

DBW · Post by **DBW** » Thu Oct 22, 2009 8:24 pm

Because I made a typo (nor = not), it wasn't understood by a few that I don't carry. It's the risk I take since we don't live in a free country and I have no desire to lock horns with a corrupted legal system that doesn't give a flip about the Constitution. Principles are such an annoying thing...

Post by **Ysabel Kid** » Thu Oct 22, 2009 8:52 pm

Bruce - good for you. Though I agree with DBW's purity of thought on this, getting a CCW does do a couple positive thing (and one big negative - registers you as a gun owner). It means you don't have to fear losing your guns and other rights while exercising one, and the more of us who have them the more the politicians will fear trying to deprive us of our rights. Of course as kimwcook points out, the societal benefit is large - the more of "us" that carry, the more the predators in society have to fear that their intended prey is armed.

DBW · Post by **DBW** » Thu Oct 22, 2009 9:52 pm

Ysabel Kid wrote:Bruce - good for you. Though I agree with DBW's purity of thought on this, getting a CCW does do a couple positive thing (and one big negative - registers you as a gun owner). It means you don't have to fear losing your guns and other rights while exercising one, and the more of us who have them the more the politicians will fear trying to deprive us of our rights. Of course as kimwcook points out, the societal benefit is large - the more of "us" that carry, the more the predators in society have to fear that their intended prey is armed.

Odd premise to allow the political criminal element to know that we carry with all of our biographic information yet on the other hand worry about petty criminals having a one up on us by tipping our hand that we are armed. Remember, governments rule with the threat of force. Criminals are simply opportunistic parasites. And lastly, the 2A exists (along with the entire Constitution and BORs) because the Founders didn't trust government. They weren't too worried about inconsequential criminals.

horsesoldier03 · Post by **horsesoldier03** » Thu Oct 22, 2009 10:05 pm

Bruce, that is the exact reason that I chose to go ahead and get my CCL. I am not an individual that feels I must carry a gun everytime I leave my home. However, I travel long distances frequently and carry a pistol with me anytime I do so. My home state of TX provides travel allowances for carrying a concealed weapon, UNFORTUNATELY, Kansas does not! You definately need to have the CCL if you plan to carry any firearm in your vehicle. A felony firearms charge is not something to be taken lightly and will not only get you a criminal record but fines that could potentially ruin you financially as well. I have held my CCL for over a year now and have never regreted having it.

Post by **AmBraCol** » Fri Oct 23, 2009 12:04 am

As a guest in a foreign country I abide by their laws. At least they allow me (occasionally) to carry down here. They suspend that permission for various idiotic reasons and I do my best to abide by their laws. The only legal guns here are registered for either possession or carry. I have seen all kinds of illegal weapons here, but mine is legal. Am contemplating an expansion of the battery if I can swing the considerable cost. Time will tell. I've never held a concealed carry license in the US because when I lived there long enough to qualify for one they were not allowed in the areas in which I lived. But the only way they'll ever disarm me is if they take away my brain. Firearms are only one way of protecting one's life. I fear a knife wielder down here far more than one carrying a firearm.

Post by **Ysabel Kid** » Fri Oct 23, 2009 6:32 am

DBW wrote:Odd premise to allow the political criminal element to know that we carry with all of our biographic information yet on the other hand worry about petty criminals having a one up on us by tipping our hand that we are armed. Remember, governments rule with the threat of force. Criminals are simply opportunistic parasites. And lastly, the 2A exists (along with the entire Constitution and BORs) because the Founders didn't trust government. They weren't too worried about inconsequential criminals.

“There! His Majesty can now read my name without glasses. And he can double the reward on my head!” – John Hancock, after signing his name in large letters on the Declaration of Independence

Pete44ru · Post by **Pete44ru** » Fri Oct 23, 2009 6:51 am

[I was going to let this comment slide but I just can't do it. it is comment like that which gives the anti-gun lobby cause to point out the ignorance of us gun cranks.

Pete, when was the last time you read the Declaration of Independence? Here's a link to a copy fo the Declaration of Independence http://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution ... amendments No mention is made of the right to bear arms, nor are there any mention of Crown attempts to interfere with the Colonists right to bear arms.

If you are referring to the Constitution, which originally made no mention of the right to bear arms, you missed the date by 11 years. The Constitution was written in 1787 and not ratified for almost two years, still with no mention of the right to bear arms.

If you are referring to the Second Amendment, you missed the date by 15 years! The Second Amendment was not ratified until 1791!]

Doc, with all sincerity, and no disrespect meant, all that is irrevelant to me - since I'd rather be tried by 12 than carried by 6.

I neither display or let my carry piece show, nor boast/tell anyone I even have one on me - as it is for shooting during a dire emergency only.

Taking away a person's right to drive is nothing near as disasterous as taking away a persons right to defend their life.
Such talk is comparing apples to oranges - just like the rhetoric that anti-gunners use against us.

.

Tycer · Post by **Tycer** » Fri Oct 23, 2009 6:58 am

I had two cars stop and visit me while changing a tire. I felt inclined to retrieve my shotgun from the truck. It seems they were less interested in me and left. I then puked.

DBW · Post by **DBW** » Fri Oct 23, 2009 7:26 am

The overwhelming response of this thread has members fearing government instead of prompting government to fear us.

Bruce, if you want to play it safe to secure life on this earth will you play it safe when it's time to have 666 assigned to your person? That number will "permit" you to live with no fear of government.

Post by **Hobie** » Fri Oct 23, 2009 7:31 am

Every day we make decisions. We must accept that EVERY decision has consequences. Some people never understand that. If somebody chooses to carry with (or without) a CHP, either decision can have consequences. Those consequences may be good or not. That is life. That is your choice. The constitution has nothing to do with making decisions only with protecting (or not) your right to act on that decision without interference or persecution (and I DON'T mean prosecution) by the government.

DBW · Post by **DBW** » Fri Oct 23, 2009 7:47 am

And every choice made in this life will result in an accounting before Him. I personally view acquiesence to the government of a right given by Him as a slap of His face. As Sam Adams said to this affect that it not within man to give up a gift granted to us by Him.

Bogie35 · Post by **Bogie35** » Fri Oct 23, 2009 8:08 am

I agree with DBW. The problem is that we have become afraid of our government. It has too much power. In the good old days, 99% of the colonists were rebellious toward excessive government. Therefore, if a man stood up to the government, he would likely have the majority of the community behind him. Unfortunately, today we live in a much different society. If you stand up to the government, people barely even notice it, much less stand behind you. Therefore, I try to pick my battles carefully, leaving pride and/or principles aside.

Being arrested is one thing. A felony is VERY MUCH a different thing. For a felony, "going to jail" is the easy part. If you have a felony on your record, you automatically lose 90% of your constitutional rights. You may lose your right to vote. You can no longer (legally) even hold a firearm in your hands. You will probably never have a decent job again. If you want to try to skirt that by owning your own business, you probably won't be licensed and bonded, thus you will struggle to get the better contracts. And in some states, a felony is even grounds for divorce. So, you could even be required to pay alimony and child support on top of everything else. In other words, a felony is basically a death sentence for most.

All that having been said, it's a shame that in America you can lose 90% of your constitutional rights by simply exercising one of them. Rest assured that our Founding Fathers would be aboard ships looking for another "new world".

bogie

Doc Hudson · Post by **Doc Hudson** » Fri Oct 23, 2009 9:47 am

Bogie35 wrote:I agree with DBW. The problem is that we have become afraid of our government. It has too much power. In the good old days, 99% of the colonists were rebellious toward excessive government. Therefore, if a man stood up to the government, he would likely have the majority of the community behind him. Unfortunately, today we live in a much different society.

Bogie,

While I agree with you in general, your figures are off about the support given the Declaration of independence.

At the time the American Revolution began, there were roughly 3 Million Colonists in the thirteen colonies. Of that 3 Million, probably no more than one third wee Patriots. Another third were staunch Loyalists (including part of my family) and another third didn't give two hoots in Hades who ran the government as long as they were left alone.

So Patriots were a minority. An active, effective, audacious, and vocal minority, but still a minority. Those pigheaded Patriots had the audacity to challenge the most powerful empire in the world. Without the active aid ot France, Spain and The Netherlands, and the passive aid of a number or other countries, we'd never have won our independence.

I guess the point I'm making is like some famous person, I don't recall the name, once said: "One man in the right makes a majority."

i do not agree with the stand Pete and DBW are making, but I respect your stand on principle and hope that none of you will make yourself martyrs to the cause.

madman4570 · Post by **madman4570** » Fri Oct 23, 2009 10:16 am

Get the permit! Dont screw around! Times have changed and if you want to end up in a 4X9 foot cell with Eddie and Bubba 23 hrs a day,dont mess around.your Choice!

Also I am not big on leaving my gun in the car! Its pretty much either on me or in the safe at home!

Bogie35 · Post by **Bogie35** » Fri Oct 23, 2009 11:36 am

Doc Hudson wrote:
Bogie35 wrote:I agree with DBW. The problem is that we have become afraid of our government. It has too much power. In the good old days, 99% of the colonists were rebellious toward excessive government. Therefore, if a man stood up to the government, he would likely have the majority of the community behind him. Unfortunately, today we live in a much different society.

Bogie,

While I agree with you in general, your figures are off about the support given the Declaration of independence.

At the time the American Revolution began, there were roughly 3 Million Colonists in the thirteen colonies. Of that 3 Million, probably no more than one third wee Patriots. Another third were staunch Loyalists (including part of my family) and another third didn't give two hoots in Hades who ran the government as long as they were left alone.

So Patriots were a minority. An active, effective, audacious, and vocal minority, but still a minority. Those pigheaded Patriots had the audacity to challenge the most powerful empire in the world. Without the active aid ot France, Spain and The Netherlands, and the passive aid of a number or other countries, we'd never have won our independence.

I guess the point I'm making is like some famous person, I don't recall the name, once said: "One man in the right makes a majority."

i do not agree with the stand Pete and DBW are making, but I respect your stand on principle and hope that none of you will make yourself martyrs to the cause.

Thanks Doc. Of course, you're right about the numbers. I certainly exaggerated them. But, I am without doubt that a man who stands up to the government today will receive much less support (if any at all) than in the good ole days. Unfortunately, instead of 33%, the percentage of true Patriots in America today is probably less than 1%. And with those odds, even Patrick Henry would sit quietly in his seat. At the very least, he wouldn't risk a felony charge. So in essence, we are more oppressed now than ever before, and mostly by our own complacency.

The only solution would be a "million man march" on the Whitehouse, with each man carrying a fully loaded gun. But, I would not be in the front of the formation.

IMPORTANT DISCLAIMER:
The opinions and/or statements expressed above are in no way intended or implied to incite any form of violent or potentially violent uprising against the United States Government or any representative thereof.

bogie

PaulB · Post by **PaulB** » Fri Oct 23, 2009 4:58 pm

It is better not to criticize another man's choice in this matter. There are good arguments on both sides.

I have simply made the decision I will not be disarmed for any reason. This means I will never be arrested or go to jail. I may die, but I'm going to die anyway. It's all right; I've already lived a full life. If it plays out this way, I will try to take a thug or two with me.

Of course, I don't know if I'm up to that until it actually happens. That's the plan, though. Also, the chance of this happening is very small, so I don't worry much about it. I worry more about dying in bed after months or years of suffering, as happens to so many people.

Sheepman Dave · Post by **Sheepman Dave** » Sat Oct 24, 2009 1:10 am

After years of hemming and hawing I picked mine up last friday.