Here is a hypothetical for gun cranks and history buffs

[Doc Hudson]

i don't remember if I've asked this question before so let's play with it again if I have.

Suspend disbelief and imagine the year is 1908.

You are in charge of what is ostensibly a major archeological expedition to study the Silk Road. To all appearances, the Smithsonian Institute, the British Museum, and the Royal Geographic Society jointly finance your expedition. In actuality, you have a second and more important mission from the British Military Intelligence Service/

Your mission is to travel the Silk Road from Shanghai, China all the way to the Mediterranean Coast at Antioch, Turkey. Along the way, you are to determine the military and political situation among the Central Asian tribal states, access Russian goals in the area, and sound out possible allies against a possible Russian move against India. The expedition will last at least three years and possibly as long as five years. A thorough survey of military potential outweighs any need for speed.

Since your expedition is going to travel through wild and lawless areas, it is to be expected that it will be heavily armed, any problems with Chinese, Russian, and Turkish authorities have been smoothed away diplomatically.

Your expedition staff will consist of some fifty trained archeologist, artists, botanists, zoologists, geographers, cartographers, geologists, and clerical staff. In addition to the academic members, there will be some 200 European and Americans (some of whom will actually be members of the British and American Armies on detached service) who will act as a military force to protect the expedition against warlords, bandits, and treachery from Russian, Chinese and Turkish agents. There will also be a few hundred coolies laborers, muleskinners, grooms, camel drivers, cooks, servants, guides, porters, translators, and guards.

Your task in this question is to explain how you plan to arm your expedition. Be specific, if you mean a Webley Irish Constabulary Revolver, say so, don’t just call it some ugly old British revolver. There are only three limitations. 1- the firearms and other weapons must be available in 1908, so no Magnum handguns or rifles, no modern assault rifles, and no M-1911 Colt Pistols. 2 - Military issue small arms should be avoided in order to provide deniability if there are spy charges made. 3 - The weapons must be light enough to be transported through some of the most rugged country in the world using only animal transport.

So fellow gun cranks, how will you equip your expedition?

[gamekeeper]

If I had to carry only civilian weapons, I wouldn't feel naked with a Winchester 92 and a Colt New Service model in 44/40 or 38/40 and it would keep the ammo supply simple.

I believe that the Colt new service was adopted by the US military in 1909 but in .45 cal.

[zack coyote]

Easy, Colt SAA, .45 Colt, Winchester 94, .30WCF. Both known worldwide. The '92 is a good choice, but most bandits, and warlords would out gun you with that gun.

[jlchucker]

While my own personal preferences might be a Winchester or Marlin levergun for most things, for combat back in the 1908 day, as the original question was asked, would probably be for a Mauser in 7mm or 8mm. The question prohibited military arms to avoid spy charges, so that would exclude 30-40 Krags, and US Springfields in 30-06 (my first choice for combat back in those days). It would be hard to equate Mausers with any particular country back then--those were being used all over the world at that time--even in the areas described in the question.

[Old Time Hunter]

Either 7mm '93-'95 Mausers or Win 95 chambered for 7.62 X 54R for long rifles, definitily the 7 shot Russian pea shooter, the Nagant 7.62 as the side arm. Based on what area of the world you would be traveling thru...that's my guess. Then again, there were alot of M71/84 chambered for the 9.3 Turkish round in both China and Turkey.

[Malamute]

I'd go with a majority of Winchester 1894 carbines, with some 1895's in 30 Army (30-40) or 30 Gov't '06 for longer range use if needed, and perhaps a few Mauser or Springfield sporters scoped for special use. Handuns would be primarily Colt's SAA's in comercial version in 44 WCF cal, with some DA's, Smith breaktops in 38 S&W for support personnel, and some larger frame DA's for others capable of using them to advantage.

The 44 WCF cal handguns would be in deference to ammo weight compared to 45 Colt. Same basic idea with the Smith 38's. Extra arms without a lot of extra weight. All of the imported personnel on the expedition should be capable of being armed in the frontier areas. This is presumed to be self contained, all weapons related supplies essentially would have to be taken along from the beginning.

[RKrodle]

I thought I remembered this one from a few months back Doc, here it is.

http://www.levergunscommunity.com/viewt ... =silk+road

[pokey]

I'd go with a majority of Winchester 1894 carbines, with some 1895's in 30 Army (30-40) or 30 Gov't '06 for longer range use if needed, and perhaps a few Mauser or Springfield sporters scoped for special use. Handuns would be primarily Colt's SAA's in comercial version in 44 WCF cal, with some DA's, Smith breaktops in 38 S&W for support personnel, and some larger frame DA's for others capable of using them to advantage.

The 44 WCF cal handguns would be in deference to ammo weight compared to 45 Colt. Same basic idea with the Smith 38's. Extra arms without a lot of extra weight. All of the imported personnel on the expedition should be capable of being armed in the frontier areas. This is presumed to be self contained, all weapons related supplies essentially would have to be taken along from the beginning.

sounds like a plan, i'd probly tuck a couple gatling guns or maxims in one of the wagons just
in case things got western. and dynamite, yeah dynamite, need it for excavating, uh huh.
but for small arms your list looks good to me, colts and winchesters.

[gak]

I like the suggestions of Win carbines. Yes, the .30WCF would "reach out there and touch somebody" with greater authority. However, assuming the greater liklihood of closer-in skirmishes, I might select the pistol length cartridges for "firepower"/capacity--.44-40 or maybe even .38-40--in combo with like-caliber'd Colt SAAs (probably 5.5 inchers)-- ...for the also aforementioned logistics simplicity. Also a few Win 86s (rifles) with tang mounted peeps or 95s might be in order for "serious" duty.

[lever-4-life]

winchester 95 carbine in 30-06, winchester model 97 12ga, P08 luger in 9mm or saa in .45 colt

[MrMurphy]

Considering the extreme lawlessness of the area, military arms wouldn't matter in "outing" you.

7mm Mauser 93's or 98s, or Lee-Enfields. Considering Japanese influence in the region, Type 38s would be acceptable.

.455 Webley Mark III or IVs, the British influence is widespread. If this wasn't an option, though with .455 being available essentially worldwide at the time, S&W No. 3 Russians, or chambered in the .44 Russian at least due to likely ammo availability in the region.

Some Winchester 1897s for close in camp guards/untrained personnel, and if available, a couple Colt 1895 Potato-Digger MGs and/or Madsen automatic rifles for serious trouble kept under cover.

[KCSO]

Roy Chapman Andrews and he carried a LEVERGUN... M 99 Savage!

[2ndovc]

I was thinking about a dozen or so Model 97 Riot or Trench guns as well.

If one were really concerned about taking U.S. or Brit. arms then I
would think 94 or 96 Swedish Mausers and 1897 revolvers. That would
really confuse someone. However since most of the expedition would be speaking
English and have western clothes and eqipment the ruse would be short lived as to
where these guys are from. A cople sacks of gold would probably
go farther.

If not, my choice for that time period would have
been Krag carbines along with the Winchester 97s.
The Springfield 1903 would be even better but the
rifle and cartridge were so new that they would be
very hard to come by.

.45 Colt SAAs for sidearms

My personal guns for the trek would be a
Winchester 95 SRC in 30-40 and then Very new
S&W .45 Colt Hand Ejector.

jb

[tman]

winchester 95 carbine in 30-06, winchester model 97 12ga, P08 luger in 9mm or saa in .45 colt

+1

[CJM]

Wouldn't 1895 Winchester's qualify as military arms, considering the region? Didn't Turkey use them against the Armenians, and the Russians against the British in that area at the turn of the Century?
My choice would be Savage 99 take-downs (ease of cleaning) in 250-3000 and some double rifles in 400-450 for more dangerous game like the big cats you would run into at that time.

[Doc Hudson]

OK, her are my thoughts, they really haven't changed much since I posted this some months ago.

This is going to be a long tough trek through some of the roughest country in the world, and among some of the most war-like tribesmen in the world. That means the expedition will need some major firepower. We might not have to fight regular units of the Chinese, Russian or Turkish Armies, but a few thousand Afghan or Uzbeki tribemen can make one just as dead with a snaphaunce jezzail as a Russian soldier with his M-1891 Moisin-Nagant 3-Line Rifle. So in adition to rifles ans side arms, the expedition will be equipped with modern machineguns and light artillery.

Along most of our route, British and German ammunition will be much more common than American commercial or military cartridges, just in case we have to trade for extra ammo in some Central Asian bazaar. That means I want my general issue rifles to be chambered for the .303 Enfield cartridge. To make things just a little less obviously military, I would order Winchester M-1895 Rifles adapted to the use of standard Enfield Stripper Clips. I'd also include several cases of short barreled Winchester Model 1897 12 gauge shotguns and a large quantity of 00 buckshot for use by night guards and #4 and #6 shot for foraging use.

While I'd do my best to recruit the most reliable natives available for my guards, I don't believe I'd trust them with modern arms. So in adition to their personally owned edged weapons, I'd issue Martini-Henry .577/.450 Rifles and limit the amount of ammo issued at any one time.

Each European or American member of the expedition, whether military or academic< would be required to carry a sidearm at all times when clothed. Standard issue will be Colt's New Service Revolver chambered in .45 Long Colt. There will be no rule prohibiting officers and academics from bringing personal weapons of their own choice, though they must provide their own ammunition if different from standard isssue.

Heavy Weapons.

IMO, the absolute best machine gun available in 1908 is the Maxim Machine Gun. I will outfit the expedition with at least a dozen of them, in caliber .303 Enfield, with half kept in reserve storage to replace any lost, stolen or damaged weapons.

In addition to the machine guns, I will equip the expedition with a battery of Krupp Model 1905 5 cm Mountain Guns. These guns are light and handy. They can be packed on two mules or camels and can be unloaded and ready for action in a couple of minutes or less. At a pinch, thse guns are light enough to be maneuvered by their gun crews over all but the roughest terrain and they are accurate out to about 1800 yards.

In addition to the 350 to 350 Europeans and Americans, the expedition will also include some 600 to 800 native guards and perhaps as many as another 1,000muleskinneers, camel-drivers, servants, cooks beareers, interpreters and general laborers.

With organization, alertness and attention to detail, an expedition so armed should be able to outface or outfight any opposition short of a full regiment of trained and modernly equipped Russian or Turkish Regulars.

For my personal weapons I will carry a matched pair of Holland and Holland Best Grade Double Rifles in that new .470 Nitro Express cartridge they introduced last year, For lighter rifles, I'll carry a Winchester Model 1886 Rifle in .45-70 Government and a Winchester Modl 1895 in .405 Winchester. I'll also have a pair of Holland & Holland 12 guage doubles for bird shooting. For sidearms I'll take a standard issue Colt New Service and a Basket Hilted Cutlass.

[pokey]

For my personal weapons I will carry a matched pair of Holland and Holland Best Grade Double Rifles in that new .470 Nitro Express cartridge they introduced last year, For lighter rifles, I'll carry a Winchester Model 1886 Rifle in .45-70 Government and a Winchester Modl 1895 in .405 Winchester. I'll also have a pair of Holland & Holland 12 guage doubles for bird shooting. For sidearms I'll take a standard issue Colt New Service and a Basket Hilted Cutlass.

some pretty deep pockets, you've got there.

even if it is a fantasy.

[2ndovc]

Wouldn't 1895 Winchester's qualify as military arms, considering the region? Didn't Turkey use them against the Armenians, and the Russians against the British in that area at the turn of the Century?
My choice would be Savage 99 take-downs (ease of cleaning) in 250-3000 and some double rifles in 400-450 for more dangerous game like the big cats you would run into at that time.

I can't recall any Turkish contract 95s. The only military that I know of that bought in any quantity was Russia though they did spread them around after the October Revoluton ( but that woud be after our 1908 deadline). I have one with Spainish cartuches on the stocks.
the U.S. bought a few and sent them to the Phillipeans during the occupation there but they
were unwanted, returned and sold off as surplus.

If I am wrong please let me know.

jb

[Doc Hudson]

I can't recall any Turkish contract 95s. The only military that I know of that bought in any quantity was Russia though they did spread them around after the October Revoluton ( but that woud be after our 1908 deadline). I have one with Spainish cartuches on the stocks.
the U.S. bought a few and sent them to the Phillipeans during the occupation there but they
were unwanted, returned and sold off as surplus.

If I am wrong please let me know.

jb

The only military contract I recall Winchester getting other than the Russian Model 1895's were for a rather large block of Model 1873's from the Turks. (Remember the Battle of Plevna? An outnumbered army of Turks armed with Rolling Block Rifles,for long range shots, and tow or three Model 1873's per man for up-close-and-dirty work slaughtered a much larger force of Russians making a frontal assault. Turkyey became the only country to ever standardize on a Winchester lever-gun for general issue.)

[penates]

Colt New Service in .455 eley, Win m1895 and Lewis LMG's in .303 enfield