Wolves Kill 120 sheep in one night near Dillon, MT

[BigSky56]

This is the second time his ranch has been hit in a month. The granola's say its unheard of,wolves dont do that. danny
http://www.missoulian.com/news/local/ar ... 03286.html

[gamekeeper]

The granola's say it's unheard of, wolves don't do that. Then it must be "Aliens"

[dr walker]

That is horrible. I cant beleive people are having to deal with this. The restricted hunting of predators is asinine, there needs to be an open season.

[kimwcook]

I feel for the ranchers. That situation would really be hard to recover from. As stated, the money doesn't take care of their management program. If they were looking for the money they'd of probably already marketed their sheep.

I'd like to know why they killed so many. I'm obviously no expert, but in the natural world there's no other predator I know of that kills just for the thrill. Other than man.

[Old Savage]

Nature gone wild.

[thornblom]

I have seen this sort of thing back in Texas in the early 1970's. But it wasn't wolves, it was a pack of dogs, some feral and some not. It seems that once the killing starts, they just keep on trying to kill any sheep that is moving or that they can catch. Fortunately, these dogs would come to a varmint call, so we called them in and killed about 8 of them. There were about 15 in the pack that we saw.

Dave (Bubba) Thornblom

[O.S.O.K.]

SSS

I think I'd invest in a good quality nv scope...

[J Miller]

The feds be darned! There needs to be an intervention there. A bunch of black ninja suited folks with rifles to just slaughter that pack then burry them deep.

S.S.S.

Joe

[Mich Hunter]

Wolves will kill as many as they can just to save for later. My idea??? S.S.S.
Maybe they will get point.

[KirkD]

Two options come to mind:

1. shoot, shovel and shut-up, but unless you got someone watching the sheep 24-7 you will still lose lots of sheep
2. put some Maremma dogs in with the sheep. I know of two sheep farmers who raise sheep in Timber Wolf and Coyote territory who put some of these dogs in with their sheep and not only reduced their sheep losses to zero, but in the case of one of them (a friend of mine .... and I got this first hand), reduced the wolf population. In his case, he had one Maremma male in with his sheep when at least two Timber wolves decided to help themselves to a sheep or two. The Maremma killed two of them, both adult wolves (i.e., one dog vs. two Timber Wolves at the same time) and had not a scratch on him. The other farmer had 300 ewes bordering one of our national parks. He had at least three of these dogs in with his sheep and they kept losses to zero. Up here, we can drop a Timber Wolf any time of the day or year if it is destroying personal property (i.e., sheep). However, a fellow can't be sitting up all day and night waiting for them to show up, so the wolves and coyotes are going to get a few unless a fellow has the right breed of dog living right in with the sheep to take up the slack.

I had one of these Maremma dogs for a couple years (until one night he decided to stand down a large truck on the road). He was the best farm dog I ever had, and I've had quite a few. These are not city or town dogs. They loaf around all the time and look like a lazy sack of potatoes disguised as a sheep. But let a threat show up and the dog goes totally berserk, racing like greased lighting toward the threat, hitting it with its shoulder at about 30 miles per hour with its 120 pound package of bone and muscle.

Anyway, I got an order in for another Maremma pup.

[Buck Elliott]

I feel for the ranchers. That situation would really be hard to recover from. As stated, the money doesn't take care of their management program. If they were looking for the money they'd of probably already marketed their sheep.

I'd like to know why they killed so many. I'm obviously no expert, but in the natural world there's no other predator I know of that kills just for the thrill. Other than man.

Yup -- Wolves do it; coyotes do it when they can; big cats will do it if the opportunity arises -- so will small ones. Humans (most of them...) are NOT the greedy, blood-thirsty slaughterers they're thought to be; at least they're not alone in that regard

[madman4570]

Kirk, Will they really kill Timber wolves?? here is a question, I have been toying with raising some Black Welsh Mountain Sheep on my 130 acre wooded mountain now that I am retired.(supposedly if you have the acreage it can be profitable? Would these dogs do the job well???
I am used to big dogs for guarding the home etc.
I have always had pairs of dobermans and they were great dogs. But have no experience raising sheep/goats or that Maremma type dog.

[Kansas Ed]

We had sheep in Mo when I was growing up. There was one coyote who got a 65lb lamb every day. He didn't eat, just took them down, ripped the throat out, and walked off. Try as I may, he always outsmarted me. But I found where he was going under the fence, and set a trap there. He left three of his toes in that trap and never returned. My point was though, that he was killing for the fun of it...and doing it every day.

Now the thing that bothers me about this article was that it seemed like there was some some sort of pack vengance there. The last time they struck one of their members was taken down...then strangely enough the pack returns to the same ranch and commit's slaughter on a large number. I know that a dog can get really vengeful, and do things just out of spite...so I wouldn't put it past a wolf pack mentality.

As the wolf population grows here in the US, we are going to see a lot of increases in these type of reports. But wait until they take down a couple of campers or snowmobilers some winter when the food source is scarce.

Ed

[bogus bill]

Here in southern utah some ranchers put a lamma with their sheep. They tell me the lamma will kick a coyote to death. I once worked with the conservation dept and the national park sevice in three states many years ago, and I got to tell you that I dont have a lot of confidence in those college educated pencil necks that are given so much power!

[CowboyTutt]

Hey Kirk! How about a picture of this dog that looks like a sheep????

-Tutt

[KirkD]

Kirk, Will they really kill Timber wolves?? here is a question, I have been toying with raising some Black Welsh Mountain Sheep on my 130 acre wooded mountain now that I am retired.(supposedly if you have the acreage it can be profitable? Would these dogs do the job well???
I am used to big dogs for guarding the home etc.
I have always had pairs of dobermans and they were great dogs. But have no experience raising sheep/goats or that Maremma type dog.

They have specifically been bred to protect sheep from wolves. Normal guard dogs are not appropriate. There are other breeds that do this as well, such as the Great Pyranees. I know in my friend's case, that his Maremma (a brother to mine) did kill two Timber Wolves at the same time. They are built like a bear, with white fur. I call their fur 'dog armor', for it is very thick and semi-long. A wolf attempting to sink its fangs into a Maremma would get a mouth jammed full of thick, wooly fur. My friend told me that his Maremma's mode of attack was to hit the wolf at speed with its shoulder and then spin around and sink its fangs into the wolves skull into its brain, killing it instantly.

The Maremma dog lives with the sheep. In fact, it seems to think it is a sheep. A working Maremma is not a pet. If you are worried about too many wolves coming at once and overwhelming the Maremma, get two of them. They will automatically start working in shifts. They lay around most of the day and become more active at night. I spoke with the head of the sheep breeders association in Manitoba several years ago. Manitoba has plenty of wolves and coyotes, and raising sheep would be just plain stupid without these dogs. For further info, get ahold of the Maremma breeders association, or talk to a sheep breeders association in the area. If wolves or coyotes are a problem, the sheep breeders association should be familiar with this type of dog.

Tutt, here are some photos of my Maremma ....

In the photo below (taken while camping in a remote wilderness area), he looks like he's slacking, but he's not, he's guarding. His his eyesight is amazing. There were times when I'd catch him intently looking at something across the valley. I'd look and about a half mile away, there was something moving in the field .... a fox or dog or person ....... hardly more than a dot. He'd keep an eye on it for as long as it was visible, just making sure it didn't become a threat. Maremma's are bred to think for themselves without any training. They are very intelligent.


The Maremma is not an indoor dog. Our dog was perfectly happy in a howling blizzard and would be passed out in the snow, having a good snooze. Note the 'dog armor'


When you see a Maremma looking at you like this, it is assessing whether you are a threat or not. If he decides you are a threat, you are in deep doo-doo, but if you don't move, you'll likely be safe. He will keep you from moving. My friend came home one day to find two sheep buyers plastered against his barn wall, with the Maremma sitting there making sure they did not move. They'd been there for almost an hour.

[CowboyTutt]

Wow, that is a beautiful dog! I may have to bump them up to the top of my list when I can finally get a dog.

-Tutt

[Mike D.]

A few local sheepmen keep Marremas, or Great Pyrenees, to keep the coyotes out of their lambs. Those dogs will lie in wait for the 'yotes to make a move and then....

[madman4570]

Thanks for the info! Oh, In a topic(I forget which one) I told someone no dog was able to take on a wolf???? Who ever that was I told that to all I can say "sorry for my ignorance" cause I was wrong! See ya! What a dog!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[BigSky56]

The ranch next to me had 2 GP dogs the wolf pack got them both last year by the evidence in the snow during a cross country chase one or more wolves keep their attention when the others circled and hit them from behind. there were 3 adult and 2 adolescents wolves. I found both the dogs they forted up and made a stand, I sure liked them when I butchered they would come down and sit at the door and wait for bones and scraps they would just lay around the pastures and sleep and watch. They would run the whole valley and keep yotes, lions and bears away but the wolves would put them in the yard. 2 dogs on one they might do ok anything else is suicide with wolves cause they run in packs. danny

[AJMD429]

Kirk, Will they really kill Timber wolves?? here is a question, I have been toying with raising some Black Welsh Mountain Sheep on my 130 acre wooded mountain now that I am retired.(supposedly if you have the acreage it can be profitable? Would these dogs do the job well???
I am used to big dogs for guarding the home etc.
I have always had pairs of dobermans and they were great dogs. But have no experience raising sheep/goats or that Maremma type dog.

Great Pyrenees look just like 'em (are they just a variant?) and they won't let coyotes or stray dogs NEAR our goats. They'd likely kill them, but our fences so far have kept a confrontation from happening. They were born at a fellow goat ranchers home, and raised by the mom in the stalls of the barn along with the goats SHE protected, so they kind of think they ARE goats, and protect their 'own'.

[KirkD]

I've no experience with the Great Pyranees dogs, but it sounds like the dogs were killed quite a ways away from the sheep. That gives me cause for concern. If the sound of wolves put them in the yard, I know my friend would be getting rid of them immediately; the dogs must be offensive when confronted with wolves, not defensive. In the case of my friend's Maremma, the dog has killed at least three Timber wolves thus far by himself and, as I mentioned before, in the first incident, it was at least two wolves against one dog, and the dog killed both of them. In all three kills, the dog killed the wolves when they were quite close to the sheep and never lets himself be drawn off. I don't know if he is the exception at killing wolves or not. He may have had more skill than another Maremma, because I do know that he killed a younger, but larger male Maremma that was challenging him for the alpha position. He hit the larger Maremma and broke its shoulder and then tore out its throat. My friend's wife saw the whole thing and said that it was done very quickly but with no apparent effort. So I imagine things may also depend upon the skill and attitude of the dog.

The other farmer I know of who had the 300 ewes in a large pasture bordering a national park in Manitoba had three dogs with his sheep, and the wolves there are plentiful and have been seen in packs of up to eight. He's never lost a dog or a sheep (since he started using his dogs), although three dogs might be the tipping point for the average wolf pack. I do not know if any of his dogs have ever made a kill ..... since we sold and moved away, I've lost touch with what is happening back in Manitoba.

[O.S.O.K.]

Wow a 100 pound-ish dog that can kill a 200 pound wolf? Man.

They sound kind of like airdales - they are much much more dog than their 60 pounds would bely as well. They use them to hunt bear for example and the bears don't want to mess with them! Giant terriers basically.

I know that even our 25 pound welsh terriers will fight to the death with other dogs. You have to understand that about them to keep them out of trouble... usually very people friendly though.

And on another note: isn't it weird how its fine and dandy to have dogs on hand that will dispatch the wolves but the ranchers themselves can't do it? How stupid is that?

[BigSky56]

Kirk, Those dogs were about a quarter mile from their home turf I suspect they were making there rounds of the valley when they got hit as the NF borders the ranch. The owner got those dogs as adults and I dont think they where raised as pups with stock and would wander although they spent the nights on the ranch. The 2 GP that we had on a leased 8K acre ranch would try and get in the house when the wolves came down into the calving area, we use to winter 200 head of elk the wolves pushed them off the ranch then went for the cows. Usually the dogs roamed the cattle and stayed out all the time I could always tell if wolves were around the dogs would be kegged up on the porch. I dont blame the dogs 13 wolves is trouble. danny

[BigSky56]

OSOK, right now you can shoot wolves in your stock the problem is its a 24/7 ordeal to watch stock when they are scattered over a big area or several areas. danny

[KirkD]

BigSky, that does answer some concerns I had about those particular dogs. In general, these type of dogs need to be raised with and living with whatever they will be protecting. Those two GP's may not have bonded with the sheep as well as they might have had they been raised with them. I know when my friend Dan would be loading up some sheep for market, the Maremma (his name is Tup) would try to get in the truck with the sheep. He says the 10-month stage is especially important as to how well the dog will do later .... whether he/she stays with the sheep, or begins running around. If a dog starts running around and neutering doesn't keep it with the sheep, it is time to get rid of it. Although no two dogs are a match for 13 wolves, a good livestock guard dog should become aggressive when he hears a wolf howl, rather than hole up. When Tup hears a wolf, he's immediately alert and ready for action. I never got to see how my Maremma (Tup's brother) would respond to a wolf, since they don't range down into my area but I did note that he became violently aggressive when he'd see large, dark-colored dogs when we were traveling, lunging against the leash, roaring and snarling at any dog that was big and dark, essentially going berserk at the sight of any dog that looks similar to a wolf. I figured that it must be a genetic thing from 2,000 years of breeding. I think a sheep rancher needs to hand-select his dogs, weeding out those who seem defensive at the sound of wolves and keeping only those who both stay with the sheep, and respond aggressively to the sound of wolves. If the wolf packs are big, then a fellow is going to need 3 to 5 working dogs living in with the sheep, judging from that fellow who raises sheep at the edge of the national park. They don't eat all that much when full grown. My dog leveled off at 120 pounds and ate a lot when growing but surprisingly little when full grown.

[Birdman]

I suppose you guys think my 13 pound mini schnauzer couldn't kill a wolf. Well the proof is in the fact that I ain't seeing no wolf pac's running around Central Illinois.

[Wind]

Well guys, I have nothing but good things to say about the Great Pyrenees breed. My guy has unbelievable senses. He can spot or hear a coyote beyond a mile easily. Usually beyond where I can pick them up with serious binoculars. I am actually trying to curb his inbred instincts. When we play, he will loop around and from 10 to 12 feet away, charge and leap. He's 135 pounds now and that is a considerable force impacting you. I don't want him doing that to unsuspecting, old or young people. They are intelligent, learn fast, and have pleasant dispositions. He is by no means a flock dog, but when he gets "hinky", I get the hammer back (and a thumb on the flashlight button when out after dark). He likes to be near (protective) and will snooze under the cut-off table for the table saw, when I'm using it, hangs in the shade at shooting events, and will be well mannered in hotels and motels when we travel. I have been flying top cover for him since he was a little pup, but had he been given a flock to guard, especially with another older, experienced dog, I would have faith in his ability to take care of business. Here are a few pictures. The hair on their necks is almost like thick hairy armor. I've seen some working sheep up the highway a bit. They function much like an Army squad. Impressive. I'd recommend these guys as pets or working dogs. Enjoy the pix. Wind

[airedaleman]

Wow a 100 pound-ish dog that can kill a 200 pound wolf? Man.

They sound kind of like airdales - they are much much more dog than their 60 pounds would bely as well. They use them to hunt bear for example and the bears don't want to mess with them! Giant terriers basically.

I know that even our 25 pound welsh terriers will fight to the death with other dogs. You have to understand that about them to keep them out of trouble... usually very people friendly though.

And on another note: isn't it weird how its fine and dandy to have dogs on hand that will dispatch the wolves but the ranchers themselves can't do it? How stupid is that?

I can vouch for the airedales' courage and pluck. In more than 20 years of having one, no dog ever even attempted to attack Ned Kelly, Paddy O'Reilly, or Bridget Griffin. The very presence displayed by an alert Airedale discourages interference. I know none of them could take a wolf but they would certainly die in the attempt. "Quit" is not in their vocabulary. The famous African white hunter John Hunter related that the only dogs he could find that would hold and attack lions were Airedales. Unfortunately, he had to keep replacing them as they usually were killed while pinning a cat - victims of their own courage.

The Maremma sounds like quite a dog. I had never heard of them until I read this post. I'll have to learn more.

[madman4570]

I suppose you guys think my 13 pound mini schnauzer couldn't kill a wolf. Well the proof is in the fact that I ain't seeing no wolf pac's running around Central Illinois.

Those little schnauzers have the heart of a tiger.mine will chase any dog on its property and attack it like a missle.You really have to watch them or they will die trying!

[KirkD]

Speaking about attitude in dogs, on the same farm as Tup, the Maremma that has killed at least three wolves, there is an old, toothless, and crippled Border Collie (due to being run over several years ago). This little old female Border Collie has won prizes in sheep herding years ago, and it knows how to take charge of a flock of sheep. Anyway, when that old crippled, toothless, little Border Collie comes over to Tup, the Maremma can't roll over on its back fast enough. It's jaw-dropping funny to see a big male Maremma with a few Timber Wolves under its belt roll over for a little old toothless, crippled Border Collie, but let a couple wolves show up and its show time. A very curious thing. The Maremma would let the Border Collie round up the sheep and put them in a pen, or cut a particular sheep, with no problem at all back when the little collie wasn't crippled. It's all in the collie's take-charge attitude over the sheep and the Maremma thinks she's the boss.

[Kansas Ed]

Having had a number of Border Collies throughout my life, I'm convinced that they are one of the most trustworthy and faithful dogs ever. I first became enamored with them when I watched one that belonged to a dairy farmer friend of mine. His toddlers would roam the milk barn ever close to the pit, but that she-dog was always right on his heels, within grabbing distance of that little boy. I knew then that she was not only watching but prepared to pull him back from the edge if ever he got too close or lost his balance. I've seen things with a Border Collie that most people wouldn't believe. And I've tried to have one close ever since. Sometimes they outsmart me, and sometimes they are strong willed, but seldom are they insolent.

Ed

[winchester1886]

Maremma's are one of the smallest of the flock guardian dogs, probably in bad wolf country you may need to step up a size or two, if your interested have a look at the Akbash Dog, Anatolian Shepard, Caucasian Ovtcharka,Kangal Dog, Komondor, and the South Russian Ovtcharka.
These boy's can do the job on wolves or anything else that threaten's their flock, they have been doing it for thousands of years in Europe and Asia.

[madman4570]

Really liked this saying about your dog!


He is your friend, your partner, your defender, your dog;
You are his life, his love, his leader.
He will be yours, faithful and true
To the last beat of his heart.
You owe it to him to be worthy of such devotion.

[AmBraCol]

I'd like to know why they killed so many. I'm obviously no expert, but in the natural world there's no other predator I know of that kills just for the thrill. Other than man.

Ever hear the phrase, "like a weasel in a chicken coop"? It's based on how a weasel will kill indiscriminately. A few years ago there was a web site that documented "thrill killing" by wolves, both sheep and elk. Some puma have been known to kill more than they need as well. I believe it's an individual thing. I refuse to hunt with someone who just shoots to see 'em flop. And I've known folks like that. Most human hunters I know are ethical and careful in their ways, respecting the prey and taking only what they need. Perhaps most wolves are that way as well, but folks in wolf country have documented multiple kills with little/nothing eaten from the carcasses. So it's not unheard of - no matter what "folks who know" seem to think. Most scientists seem to think that if they've not personally seen it then it's not true. Kind of like the shark that hit New Jersey back at the turn of the 20th century. The "experts" went on and on about how it had to be something else (WHAT else?) because "sharks would never hurt a person". I remember reading in the Encyclopedia about capybara and how they'd reach weights of 40 pounds. I've seen them that went 40 pounds a quarter, but since I'm not "scientist" a lot of folks doubt my word. What seems to happen (getting back to your original question) is that the panic of the flock triggers something deep inside them that makes them go berserk, so to speak. The interesting thing is that such kills seem to not be accompanied by much feeding on the carcasses.

[KirkD]

Maremma's are one of the smallest of the flock guardian dogs, probably in bad wolf country you may need to step up a size or two, if your interested have a look at the Akbash Dog, Anatolian Shepard, Caucasian Ovtcharka,Kangal Dog, Komondor, and the South Russian Ovtcharka.
These boy's can do the job on wolves or anything else that threaten's their flock, they have been doing it for thousands of years in Europe and Asia.

It is true that the Maremma is on the smaller end of the scale, although the four that I have personally seen and handled ranged between 100 pounds (a female and an unnueutered male) and an unusually big 130 pounds (an unneutered male). There are larger breeds of dogs bred for the same work.

I've no experience as to which breeds are better, so I cannot speak to that. One thing that has not been discussed in this thread is the actual average size of Timber Wolves. Like fishing and hunting stories, the actual measured size and weight tends to be smaller than 3rd or 4th hand accounts. Also sometimes the advertising of hunting and fishing camps may give the impression that 65 pound Lake Trout or 320 pound Whitetail Bucks are typical, when in fact sizes like that represent a rare extreme. The Timber Wolves that I have personally seen in the wild or dead ones in Manitoba and Northern Ontario were all between 75 and 110 pounds. This seemed a bit small to me, so I got on the web here to see what is the average size of Timber Wolves as determined by actual studies (rather than advertisements or urban myth-type discussions on the web). The Department of Natural Resources in Wisconson has weighed hundreds of Timber Wolves since the 1930's and found the average weight range for a male is between 50 to 100 pounds, with 75 pounds being the average ( http://www.dnr.state.wi.us/org/land/er/ ... troversies ). The female averages 60 pounds. There are a lot of other references that put the actual average weight of the Timber Wolf at between 55 to 110 pounds. The Timber Wolves in the West may grow larger and I found one reference that British Columbia wolves (British Columbia runs between the Canada-USA border in the South up to Alaska and the Yukon in the North) tend to average between 55 to 130 pounds for the male. These are thought to be the biggest Timber wolves in North America. So we are talking about average weights of males to be around 75 pounds in the center of the continent to 85 pounds in the west and north. Of course, as with any fish or animal, there will be the occasional monster of 150 pounds or possibly even larger, but I've not been able to find a documented case of wolves that weighed 150 pounds or more. Perhaps there is a record out there, I just haven't found it. But even if the occasional 150 pounder exists, we need to realize that we would be talking about a very rare specimen. One thing I've noticed over the years when I'd have the vet weight my dogs, is that the dogs always looked bigger than they weighted, so it is very easy to overestimate the weight of a dog or wolf simply by looking at it unless one has some actually weighed examples to compare with.

The average weight of a Maremma, which is among the smaller of the flock guard dogs, is about exactly the same as the average weight of a Timber wolf, although the Maremma's I've personally handled were all larger, though maybe hand selected by the breeder for size. Then there are the larger breeds as mentioned by 1886. I'm not sure what factor size has to play ..... although I have personally witnessed one fight between a 75 pound purebred German Shepherd unneutered male, and two wolves, a male and a female. The male was about the same weight as the Shepherd, the female slightly smaller. The Shepherd got more bites in on the male, but the two wolves fought as a team, with one always circling behind my dog to rip at his back legs as he was engaging the larger male. It was clear from this encounter, that the Shepherd would have eventually been hamstrung and, once he was down, he would have been finished, had he not retreated after several minutes of fighting. It was also clear that speed of the kill is of the utmost importance. From what I saw, a guard dog that is outnumbered absolutely must incapacitate one wolf within about 10 seconds, and that is on the outside. Otherwise, the dog will have wolves ripping chunks out of his hind legs. The other thing I could see is that length of teeth and jaw strength are very important along with where the dog bit into the wolf. My dog repeatedly went for the male wolf's neck and almost every time came away with his mouth jammed full of fur, which he would have to shake out, which would take between 5 to 10 seconds of precious time. I can see that the Maremma's tendency to bite into the skull/brain (as Tup did with his wolves), where the fur is shorter, would definitely be an advantage. The other thing I noticed was that the smaller female was noticeably more agile than the larger male. Consequently, when my German Shepherd would flip around to engage her, he seldom managed to get her. The larger male, which was about his size, was less agile. This is why I'm not sure whether size is an advantage for a flock guard dog ...... I simply do not know. There is probably an ideal weight window where weight is balanced with agility. Once thing I am absolutely sure of is that the dog must kill or incapacitate the wolf within less than 10 seconds, and that is pushing it. Otherwise, since wolves fight in teams, the second wolf will be on him from the back.

As to what breeds will be better than others, I don't know and the problem with finding out is twofold. First, there is lack of pooled information and objective testing. Dog-wolf engagements are rare events and to compile enough of them that span all the breeds has never been done to my knowledge. Second, as with any breed, there will be exceptional dogs, average dogs, and duds. One dog may have 3 wolf kills under its belt and another of the same breed may be incapable of making a fast kill and end up getting killed itself. So any sheep rancher will probably have to hand select his dogs, no matter which breed he goes for and cull the ones that don't measure up.

One last thing I'll say about these flock-guard dogs, which is certainly true of the Maremma and probably true of the others as well due to them all being flock guard dogs is that they will bond to whatever they live with, including people. In my case, the farmer beside us had done time for sexual assault and further time for beating the bejeebers out of his mother, with whom he lived. I would see him from time to time just across the fence from our farm, and I have two daughters. I decided I needed a Maremma to protect my daughters when they were playing outside. They are good at that too, as probably most flock guard dogs are. I highly recommend that these type of dogs not live in an urban area. They were never meant to be cooped up. Before you get one, google the breed you are interested in. There are several very good articles on the web about each breed.

[madman4570]

Kirk, Still sounds like a heck of a dog! Most the time its not about the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog!
As for that neighbor you had after an up and real personal meeting with him, he would be staying away from my family or he would have a lot more to worry about than a dog.(but nothing wrong with being extra careful!

[winchester1886]

Kirk a great post as I have a great passion for hunting dogs including Wolves, I have done a lot of hunting mostly of kangaroo's with Scottish Deerhounds and Irish Wolfhounds over the years, but all illegal now thanks to the do gooders.
I have some interesting figures on wolf weights I have taken from Dave Mech's book " The Wolf " published 1970, 98 male adult wolves taken in the Northwest Territories averaged 98 lbs each, 87 adult females averaged 85 lbs each, they also took some from the Soviet Union and Alaska and they were about the same weight, they took 40 adult males in Ontario for an average weight of 61 lbs, and 33 females averaged 54 lbs.
The largest Wolf taken at the time of the book printing was 175 lb male taken in East Central Alaska.
The largest of all Wolves as a group are the Mackenzie River Valley Wolves, which probably makes a lot of sence as the Mackenzie River Huskie is the largest of all huskies, standing as tall as 32 inchs at the shoulder, which is very tall for a huskie.
Any dog that is going to make a career out of hunting or predator control has got to know what it is doing in it's head or it won't last long, when I went hunting my dogs were pets that went hunting and they did quite well, but I used to go away with an old fellow he was English came from one of the channel islands and had been in Australia since the 1920's, he always said he was sent to Australia by his father because he was dilly dallying to much with the young ladies, rather funny but when you do a bit of reading there seems to be so many young Englishmen of that time that were sent over sea's for that reason, he had heaps of Deerhounds and his dogs were hunting dogs that went hunting, they had no feelings no emotion just cold killing machines,but his dogs were unbelieveable to watch in the field they would tackle the biggest Roo and put it away because they knew what they were doing, he only ever used two dogs on a Roo which is pretty good going when you consider a big roo would kill half a dozen dogs that don't know what they are doing, he had a policy of ruthless culling he always said it was the only way to get top dogs, any dog that did not perform in the field had a 270 Winchester in it before it got back to the Landy.
As the Wolf is considered to be the most efficient of all predators by their kill ratio, any dog that is going to be used to control them definitely needs to have that in bred ability that the flock guardian dogs have, to breed up a pack of Deerhounds and Wolfhounds to do the job would take years, and you would probably lose a lot of dogs in the mean time.
I have really enjoyed this post good to talk about the old days, my wife and grown daughters (26, 21) reckon they have heard all my stories to many times now and don't need to hear them again. Do you fellow's have that problem.

[Buck Elliott]

One of the last wolves trapped/killed this season in Yellowstone weighed in at approx. 143 pounds. Of course, it had just feasted on an elk carcase...

(How much did your dinner weigh...?)

[KirkD]

... Any dog that is going to make a career out of hunting or predator control has got to know what it is doing in it's head or it won't last long, ...

I think that pretty well summarizes the key quality. When just one wasted second brings a dog closer to death, it has to know exactly what it is going to do and it must swiftly and successfully pull it off without mistakes. That is where hand-selecting and culling pays off, as you mentioned.

One thing I have noticed about the Maremmas I have known, and this may be true of other breeds who are effective against wolves as well, is the amount they constantly use their front legs as 'arms'. Even when peacefully laying around, if there is something near them that they want to keep near them, and you try to slide it away, out launches a front paw that slaps down over they object to keep it from being taken. When they fight, they fight with their teeth, shoulders, and front legs as arms, grabbing the opponent and using the Maremma's weight and arms to control the opponent and take it down while the jaws go to work. My purebred male German Shepherd never did this, fighting mainly with his jaws. As a result, the German Shepherd had no control over the wolf's movements.

[GoatGuy]

We keep Anatolian Shepherds 24/7/365 with our goats. Started with one who now lives with our does and doelings. He (Mr. Biggs) is 128 lbs. has a great disposition, appreciates having his ears and head rubbed, is friendly to those folks I may bring into HIS "area of operation" (as long as they meet the "smell test) and still bears a few small, faint scars on muzzle and head from a fight with two Pit Bulldogs who came upon him one day. Both intruders were sorry to cross his path; one DRT and the other made it out of the pasture hurt so bad he never made it to the woods and was subsequently dispatched with a 12 guage.

Anatolians are not prone to wander off a place, as GP's seem to be, and we are solidly sold on this breed. Anatolians too have incredible awareness and can seemingly come up silently from "no where", when folks enter the pastures. Beautiful animals, hard working and fierce when necessary. My neighbor has recently introduced three Maremma's on his sheep/goat farm and I must say they also are beautiful animals. Haven't seen them in action on a predator, but have no doubt they would be effective. We have no wolves here that I know of, but coyotes, and without doubt feral dog packs, are serious threats to livestock in our area. We haven't had any depredation incidences on our operation since bringing livestock guardian dogs onto our farm. Well, truthfully, an exception to this statement is from losing the occasional weak/sickly newborn kid to bald eagles.

All LGD breeds have their good and bad points. Any rancher/stock farmer without one or more LGD's on his place faces significantly increased risk of losing animals to predation.

[winchester1886]

I think the big advantage of flock guardian dogs is that they generally stay with the flock and protect them they don't tend to chase a lone wolf into the forest where they can be ambushed by the pack, with a dog like a Deerhound or Wolfhound they are hunting dogs and if they saw a lone wolf they would chase it, then all of a sudden one wolf turns into half a dozen and the dog has no chance no matter how good it is. Hell of a way to make a living.

[Buck Elliott]

I think the big advantage of flock guardian dogs is that they generally stay with the flock and protect them they don't tend to chase a lone wolf into the forest where they can be ambushed by the pack, with a dog like a Deerhound or Wolfhound they are hunting dogs and if they saw a lone wolf they would chase it, then all of a sudden one wolf turns into half a dozen and the dog has no chance no matter how good it is. Hell of a way to make a living.

"Dyin' ain't much of a livin', boy..."

[BigSky56]

After reading the stats from the US F&G site I dont think any dog is up to it, 3 at the same time by a pack of 5 wolves plus beaucoup sheep and some cattle. The Dillon rancher has lost quite a few sheep and guard dogs prior to this incident. danny
On the left side bar is the Wyo. weekly reports that include dogs,livestock and wolves killed.
http://www.fws.gov/mountain-prairie/spe ... mals/wolf/

[KirkD]

... I dont think any dog is up to it, 3 at the same time by a pack of 5 wolves plus beaucoup sheep and some cattle.

That is bad, alright. What makes it bad is that the wolf pack has become experienced at killing 2 or 3 guard dogs at a time. The wolves are team fighters and never forget how to do it once they've done it. In the world of lethal encounters between dog and wolf, the animal with previous experience has a huge advantage over the animal that has never had a kill before. The advantage is compounded for a group, whether it is a group of guard dogs or a group/pack of wolves that has successfully killed. It sounds like that pack has gained experience and any new guard dogs will be at a terrible disadvantage, even if the numbers are even. I'm not sure what I'd do as a rancher in that position. I can think of a two-fold strategy: a) start hunting the wolves, eliminating what I could (always a time-consuming and less than 100% efficient strategy) and b) see if I could put together a temporary guard dog pack of 8 dogs for about 6 months. I would try to find and borrow/rent one or two dogs that had a wolf kill already, with the hope that it would train the others. By hook or by crook, eliminating every last member of that wolf pack would be the objective, since if even one survives, he/she will train the new ones. They are team fighters and smart. It is like so many things in life where if one doesn't do it right the first time, one has a huge problem on ones hands.

[Travis Morgan]

While I hate sheep, those that want something can pay for it. Since the darned granolas want wolves, how about a $20 tax on PETA, Protectors of Wildlife, ROAR, WWF, and other granola club memberships? Sales of firearms and ammo are taxed extra to pay for wildlife management, and we don't complain. (BTW, I don't know ANY ranchers that don't own a gun!)

BTW, did I mention I hate those stinkin' range maggots?

[BigSky56]

Travis, I dislike sheep too the only redeeming value they have is wool which I wear for cold weather and hunting.
Kirk, one of the problems stock producers have is if their animals are scattered over so many acres that they cant be everywhere at once and the cost to have a rider watching every herd/flock 24/7 is unprofitable. Your right abut hunting them though after personally going the legal route when wolves got my calves when they were listed now with the delisting I would saddle up and stay after them till I'd run them to ground although the hot pursuit angle is a gray area. Having dogs out on leases,hund's or thou's acres, to watch stock doesnt work either as you arent allowed to have any attractants (dogfood) unattended on public land or private land if you are in a food storage orders area and it includes any feed other than hay. The ESA has got ranchers/farmers between a rock and a hard spot dealing with predators/animals. danny

[Travis Morgan]

Sheep can go extinct now; we have polarfleece and Under Armour!

As for hot pursuit, predators only run as long as they're chased, then they circle back. As long as they're in range, they're a target; they have no right to sniff around the stock until they decide to bite. The government has no business interfering into us protecting our property or livestock.
I understand the logistical and economic problems involved in guarding livestock; lots of area to cover, too much range, and too high a cost.

[Buck Elliott]

Polar fleece is NO replacement for real Merino wool, IMNSHO...

Turn a herd of wolves loose in the Malden Mills factory, and see how long it takes Malden to go 'extinct...'

[Travis Morgan]

Wool is only recyclable as wolf turds. I DO love my Columbia merino wool socks though. Too bad they're so expensive!