Any tips on cutting a dovetail in a barrel Afghan style?

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Any tips on cutting a dovetail in a barrel Afghan style?

Post by AJMD429 »

We're going to attempt a high-tech (for us) machining operation - cutting a magazine band dovetail in a .22 Henry barrel to install one of these - Image.

The problem is, our Masters 1340 CNC milling machine (ok, it's an imaginary one, but it's real to us... :roll: ) is on the fritz, and the precision 3/8" high-speed carbide dovetail-cutter is lost somewhere, so...

...we're going to have to use the Afghan-rebel type SMF (Secondary Manufacturing Facility) equipment - i.e.
  • 1. dremel tool
    2. hacksaw
    3. assorted files

    4. colorful language.


Any helpful hints...?

(That mean old Hobie won't let you help out with # 4, but I'm pretty comfortable with my abilities there... 8) )
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Re: Any tips on cutting a dovetail in a barrel Afghan style?

Post by Buck Elliott »

Eliminate the colorful language to whatever extent may be commensurate with the desired outcome...

No hacksaws, either. Just plenty of patient, controlled (that's where the language warning comes in...) filing.

Hope your "mill" mateializes soon...
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Re: Any tips on cutting a dovetail in a barrel Afghan style?

Post by Alan Wood »

First question that comes to mind is how handy are you with the hacksaw and dremel?

If I were doing this as opposed to going to a gunsmith for it I probably would use files for the whole job. Checking for square and depth frequently while sneaking up on the dimensions. Your could speed things up with either the hacksaw or dremel if your good with them but both strike me as a way to make mistakes fast.
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Re: Any tips on cutting a dovetail in a barrel Afghan style?

Post by Alan Wood »

Oh and about the colorful language this is definately a job where when you feel the need for colorful language it is time to walk away and do something else till you have calmed down and have thought about what to do next.
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Re: Any tips on cutting a dovetail in a barrel Afghan style?

Post by Buck Elliott »

Perzackly...
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Re: Any tips on cutting a dovetail in a barrel Afghan style?

Post by kimwcook »

IIRC, there are hardened dovetail guides available for putting in dovetails with files. I could be wrong. I'll have to take a look.
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Re: Any tips on cutting a dovetail in a barrel Afghan style?

Post by Cliff »

The right type of hacksaw can be an aid, need something like a jewlers saw, fine cut, of course measure a bunch before cutting. Then using safe files, only one cutting edge remove metal inbetween the cuts, watching the depth and width and measuring carefully. No need for a dremel tool, just a lot of patiences(SP) and go slowly. Make three verticle cuts with the saw at minimum depth and width, then file out what needs to be removed, using safe files. Cut should be on tight side for final fitting. Some one wrote this up with pictures in some gun magzine a few years ago. Take your time.
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Re: Any tips on cutting a dovetail in a barrel Afghan style?

Post by Hobie »

It is all in the setup. Make sure it is laid out properly, scribe the cut and stay inside the lines. Take your time. Rush it and you'll have to contact Rossi for parts... :wink:
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Re: Any tips on cutting a dovetail in a barrel Afghan style?

Post by Alan Wood »

kimwcook wrote:IIRC, there are hardened dovetail guides available for putting in dovetails with files. I could be wrong. I'll have to take a look.

Just looked it up and you are correct!
http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?p ... ber=720537

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Re: Any tips on cutting a dovetail in a barrel Afghan style?

Post by kimwcook »

This might speed up the process, but if I were only going to do one I'd probably send it off to a quality gunsmith, like Nate. You'd probably have as much in it, or a little more at the end by sending it off, but it would be done right the first time. Or, go for it, dude. I know you're a MD, but that may or may not translate well to working with your hands. I don't know your skill level with hand tools.

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Re: Any tips on cutting a dovetail in a barrel Afghan style?

Post by AJMD429 »

kimwcook wrote:This might speed up the process, but if I were only going to do one I'd probably send it off to a quality gunsmith, like Nate. You'd probably have as much in it, or a little more at the end by sending it off, but it would be done right the first time. Or, go for it, dude. I know you're a MD, but that may or may not translate well to working with your hands. I don't know your skill level with hand tools.
Ha! 'Being an MD' merely means I was silly enough to delay my adult development by a dozen more years than a 'normal' person, and that I am a member of a group notorious for overestimating their abilities outside their limited, albeit sometimes impressive, area of expertise. :oops:

Like most 'hobbyists' I figure the essence of a hobby is figuring out how to do something the most difficult and expensive way possible, rationalizing it by saying you just have to have it done 'right' or you aren't willing to spend too much money on the right parts or someone else's labor - spending twice that much and screwing it up yourself is MUCH more fullfilling. :? 8)

I wouldn't do it on a 'collectible' or pristine type gun, but I do like to do stuff myself, vs. send it 'out'. I was thinking that the same basic techniques would apply as to doing it with wood, in the 'before I got a router' days. I'd make a jig to control depth of cut, and make a few saw-cuts in the middle area to slightly less than the final depth. Then I'd use a coarse file to take out the material between cuts (the cuts serving to help reduce the total material I need to remove, as well as get shavings out of the way more easily). Then once I'm 'to depth' and sure it is 'square' , using a 60 degree file to form the undercuts for the dovetail part. Looks like I could make a 'safe' file by smearing epoxy on one face of an ordinary triangular file.

I like this idea (thanks for the link above):
Image

If I could devise a way to use the Dremel's cutting wheel precisely (i.e. depth and angle guide) either on the Dremel tool or my drill press*, I might use it instead of the 'hack' saw. If nothing else, it just sounds better to 'cut' than 'hack' . . . :lol: .

Thanks for the other link, but I wasn't quite sure how to use this tool (even that problem didn't ruin my honeymoon, though......):
Image

I suppose with the right bit, one could use a drill press with the press vice as a guide of some sort. I know the drill press isn't designed for much lateral force, but perhaps removing some of the metal bulk could be done with it, going slowly and patiently. (Yup - that's ME allright - Mr. Slow and Patient. Always. :lol: )

*I forgot to divulge that I do have that high-tech piece of equipment as well; I was using it to hang hats on, but remembered it has someplace you can put sharp things that twirl around. :oops:

At least I have kids - if I screw something up, I can always blame one of them...
Last edited by AJMD429 on Sun Aug 23, 2009 5:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Any tips on cutting a dovetail in a barrel Afghan style?

Post by kimwcook »

Sounds like you're going to do it yourself. I'd PM Salvo. He dovetailed a FA front sight on to a Ruger Vaquero and did a small tutorial w/pics. I believe he used a drill press with a dovetail cutting bit and cleaned it up with files. The finished product looked professionally done.
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Re: Any tips on cutting a dovetail in a barrel Afghan style?

Post by perry owens »

I bought one of those Wheeler jigs when I was building my Baker rifle, only to find that it won't work on larger diameter barrels like the 0.62in Baker. I used the triangular file with the safe edge that came with the jig and cut all five dovetails by hand, no hacksaw and certainly no Dremel. Worked out ok but I wouldn't want to do it often.
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Re: Any tips on cutting a dovetail in a barrel Afghan style?

Post by Gun Smith »

If that is a ring that TWISTS in, it will be difficult to cut using hand tools. The problem is cutting the undercut, front and rear, CURVED. If it is a drive in ring, a straight file cut will work.
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Re: Any tips on cutting a dovetail in a barrel Afghan style?

Post by O.S.O.K. »

$20 and a gunsmith....
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Re: Any tips on cutting a dovetail in a barrel Afghan style?

Post by Alan Wood »

AJMD429 wrote: I like this idea (thanks for the link above):
Image

Unfortunately I missed midway saying the jig has been discontinued :( And I have not been able to find something similair. Sorry about that.
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Re: Any tips on cutting a dovetail in a barrel Afghan style?

Post by Ben_Rumson »

You don't really have much metal to remove(forget the Dremel) but winding up with the hanger in the right pace is THE main deal, so you've got to devise a way to find and scribe a short line along the center line of the barrel 180 degrees from top dead center...
Once you have that reference line you can then scribe your perpendicular lines... Perhaps a few wraps from Coke can metal would work as a guide for your scribe... Then if you can find some small angle iron or the same in aluminum you can use it as a guide(clamp it) to put your saw against to keep your cuts true... I've got something like this that works good on small jobs http://www.wholesaletrains.com/Detail.asp?ID=200436088
I put tape along the blade at the point that indicates the depth I want to stop at and use oil with the saw..even with a hacksaw oil will really help.. doesn't have to be cutting oil..
Now for filing.. The old timers would use an appropriate size chisel (or grind one down) just like in wood working to rough out the notch..then start with the files.. Card them often, rubbing chalk into the teeth will keep them from loading up.. Hope this helps & good luck!
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Re: Any tips on cutting a dovetail in a barrel Afghan style?

Post by AJMD429 »

O.S.O.K. wrote:$20 and a gunsmith....
Well, yeah, but the two jobs I had a local 'smith do resulted in

a) a scope mount on a breakopen shotgun that was bowed down over the chamber-hump and bolted to the barrel in front of that part, and

b) a buggered Bushmaster Varminter barrel where I wanted some sort of muzzle protector and it was during the "assault weapon ban" so I had to get a pin-on 'muzzle brake' put on - the guy didn't PIN it on as instructed, but put three unevenly-spaced and angled 'set screws' to hold it on, plus some kind of epoxy.

So, no more 'local' jobs, and I really hate sending a gun out for stuff to be done, because I keep hearing horror stories of how many MONTHS even a simple job takes.

Still, if it is complex or a valuable gun, I WILL send it out. Probably going to send the Varminter back to Bushmaster, since I am skittish about local 'smiths even threading a barrel. I've thought about even doing THAT one myself.
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Re: Any tips on cutting a dovetail in a barrel Afghan style?

Post by 20cows »

Status: Discontinued by Manufacturer
_
I have been looking for one of those for a long time. :evil: :evil: :evil:
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Re: Any tips on cutting a dovetail in a barrel Afghan style?

Post by Alan Wood »

Well if the local gunsmith can't get the job done right I can certainly see why you would do it yourself. And with those two goofs I wouldn't trust him with one of mine again.
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Re: Any tips on cutting a dovetail in a barrel Afghan style?

Post by J Miller »

AJMD429 wrote:
O.S.O.K. wrote:$20 and a gunsmith....
Well, yeah, but the two jobs I had a local 'smith do resulted in

a) a scope mount on a breakopen shotgun that was bowed down over the chamber-hump and bolted to the barrel in front of that part, and

b) a buggered Bushmaster Varminter barrel where I wanted some sort of muzzle protector and it was during the "assault weapon ban" so I had to get a pin-on 'muzzle brake' put on - the guy didn't PIN it on as instructed, but put three unevenly-spaced and angled 'set screws' to hold it on, plus some kind of epoxy.

So, no more 'local' jobs, and I really hate sending a gun out for stuff to be done, because I keep hearing horror stories of how many MONTHS even a simple job takes.

Still, if it is complex or a valuable gun, I WILL send it out. Probably going to send the Varminter back to Bushmaster, since I am skittish about local 'smiths even threading a barrel. I've thought about even doing THAT one myself.
Sounds like you have the same problems with the local gunsmi ..... 'er gun butchers as I do.

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Re: Any tips on cutting a dovetail in a barrel Afghan style?

Post by Ben_Rumson »

Referring to my other post about this...I forgot you probably already have a dovetail to reference off of LOL.
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Re: Any tips on cutting a dovetail in a barrel Afghan style?

Post by adirondakjack »

I've actually got a small milling machine, but if I didn't, here's what I'd do.

Set the barrel up in a vise padded with two pieces of leather cut from the same old belt (so they are the same thickness), making sure the top edges of the vise jaws are exposed. Make sure the barrel is level and square to the vise. Measure and scribe the centerline using the vise jaws to aid the measuring. Also scribe a line straight across, again using the jaws of the vise as a guide to squaring what is likely a tapered barrel.....

Now get ya a smallsih 3 cornered file, and make it into a "safe" file by adding some hillbilly's friend (good old fashioned masking tape or mylar packing tape) to one side, leaving only two cutting sides. This is gonna be yer friend when ya cut the undercuts, as it can't dig deeper, just cuts on the sides. Use a hacksaw with a fine blade and a steady hand to cut two sideways cuts, using the top of the vise as a guide to keep the saw level. Chew away the middle part using the file, then use your safe file to cut the undercuts, making sure to stay square to the vise jaws (no angles, just a straight cross cut). Fit and try as ya get close.

THEN allow yourself a libation of choice while admiring your handiwork.

this is not hard, it's just an "in for a penny, in for a pound" deal where yer committed, and ya could ruin the barrel. Courage and patience.......
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Re: Any tips on cutting a dovetail in a barrel Afghan style?

Post by Ysabel Kid »

AJMD429 wrote:
O.S.O.K. wrote:$20 and a gunsmith....
Well, yeah, but the two jobs I had a local 'smith do resulted in

a) a scope mount on a breakopen shotgun that was bowed down over the chamber-hump and bolted to the barrel in front of that part, and

b) a buggered Bushmaster Varminter barrel where I wanted some sort of muzzle protector and it was during the "assault weapon ban" so I had to get a pin-on 'muzzle brake' put on - the guy didn't PIN it on as instructed, but put three unevenly-spaced and angled 'set screws' to hold it on, plus some kind of epoxy.

So, no more 'local' jobs, and I really hate sending a gun out for stuff to be done, because I keep hearing horror stories of how many MONTHS even a simple job takes.

Still, if it is complex or a valuable gun, I WILL send it out. Probably going to send the Varminter back to Bushmaster, since I am skittish about local 'smiths even threading a barrel. I've thought about even doing THAT one myself.
Time to find a new gunsmith! :shock:
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Re: Any tips on cutting a dovetail in a barrel Afghan style?

Post by Mike Hunter »

As stated earlier, if it’s a rotary dovetail like the ones used on original Winchesters, you’re not going to do it by hand. If it’s a straight dovetail, yes you can do it by hand…but it’s best to do it with machine.

Many of those cuts the depth of cut needs to be fairly specific; on Winchesters it’s +/- .003 or the magazine tube won’t fit correctly. It also has to be straight, level & square.
Pretty hard to do with a file, and eyeball. Real easy to do with a mill and a DTI.

I know some here will argue with me, and some may consider +/- .010 “close enough”. It’s truly a 10 minute $20 job with a milling machine to do it correctly. . Going by hand; what $50-$60 for fixture, an hour worth of work, then the possibility of an oops and ruining a good barrel.

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Re: Any tips on cutting a dovetail in a barrel Afghan style?

Post by Hillbilly »

Whatever jigs, fixtures or brain-power you bring to the project will be for naught. After all you want to do this "afgan style", right?

If you dont' keep a herd of goats and a camel loafing in your shop however you do this job will never truly measure up!
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Re: Any tips on cutting a dovetail in a barrel Afghan style?

Post by AJMD429 »

Hillbilly wrote:If you dont' keep a herd of goats and a camel loafing in your shop however you do this job will never truly measure up!
:lol:
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Re: Any tips on cutting a dovetail in a barrel Afghan style?

Post by Rusty »

No self respecting Afgan would own a Dremel tool. Heck it wouldn't do them any good, they don't have lectricity. They don't use vices either, they hold the work in their feet.

A safe file and a good fine cut hacksaw should get 'er done.
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Re: Any tips on cutting a dovetail in a barrel Afghan style?

Post by Leverdude »

Mike Hunter wrote:As stated earlier, if it’s a rotary dovetail like the ones used on original Winchesters, you’re not going to do it by hand. If it’s a straight dovetail, yes you can do it by hand…but it’s best to do it with machine.

Many of those cuts the depth of cut needs to be fairly specific; on Winchesters it’s +/- .003 or the magazine tube won’t fit correctly. It also has to be straight, level & square.
Pretty hard to do with a file, and eyeball. Real easy to do with a mill and a DTI.

I know some here will argue with me, and some may consider +/- .010 “close enough”. It’s truly a 10 minute $20 job with a milling machine to do it correctly. . Going by hand; what $50-$60 for fixture, an hour worth of work, then the possibility of an oops and ruining a good barrel.

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Whats a rotary dovetail? Scuse my ignorance but I'm not very familiar with old Winchesters. Kinda figured a dovetail was a dovetail was a dovetail.
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Re: Any tips on cutting a dovetail in a barrel Afghan style?

Post by Mike Hunter »

Rotary Dovetail

On a Winchester Mag Ring slot; the mag ring is twisted into place. There is about a 40 thous undercut on either side of the shoulder that the lips of the mag ring base rotate into. To do this you can use a CNC mill with the correct program, or a rotary table on your milling machine or a Volostro rotary milling head. Basically you cut a .8 dia circle with your .750 dovetail cutter.
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Re: Any tips on cutting a dovetail in a barrel Afghan style?

Post by Leverdude »

Mike Hunter wrote:Rotary Dovetail

On a Winchester Mag Ring slot; the mag ring is twisted into place. There is about a 40 thous undercut on either side of the shoulder that the lips of the mag ring base rotate into. To do this you can use a CNC mill with the correct program, or a rotary table on your milling machine or a Volostro rotary milling head. Basically you cut a .8 dia circle with your .750 dovetail cutter.

I thank you Sir! Are the Rossi's like that?
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Re: Any tips on cutting a dovetail in a barrel Afghan style?

Post by Mike Hunter »

Since I generally deal with pre-1900 Winchesters, I don't know about Rossi's, Steve Young will know

Mike
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