Question: Private sales of firearms

[KirkD]

I contacted ATF to get the scoop on the possibility of me (a Canadian) buying a rifle off my brother-in-law (an American) in a private, face to face deal up here in Canada. From the Canadian legal standpoint, there's no problem at all, but from the American standpoint I want to know what legalities of US law my brother-in-law has to fulfill. (we're talking an old Winchester here, not an antique, but probably a C&R.

It used to be that I could just call ATF up on the phone and they'd answer my question right there. Now they've changed their website to state that they won't answer questions on the phone, nor in an email. Instead they want an official letter send to a particular department. I wrote them and received a reply that it was the wrong department and to try another department outside of the ATF. I could see that I was signing myself up to a lot of letter writing over months while trying to find the right US department and the right person, since nobody wants to talk on the phone. Looks like a case of bureaucratic backside covering to me, on their part. Frustrating when the law enforcers won't tell you what the law is, without making you jump through an extended series of hoops to find out. They won't even tell me what chapter and section of the law to look at for myself in case I to read it for myself.

Anyway, here's a question for you ......

Question: Can an American take a trip up to Canada to visit his relatives and, while there, sell a rifle to a Canadian in a private, face-to-face transaction, or does he have to obtain a US export permit? (note, under Canadian law, this is perfectly legal, but I want to know if the American is breaking an American law while in Canada when he sells an old Winchester to his Canadian relative.)

In some ways, Canadian firearms laws are not as strict as American laws when it comes to transactions. We can ship guns all over Canada to one another directly without any FFL dealer go-between and without any paperwork or permits. We can import and export non-restricted firearms to and from other countries without any import or export permits.

[Terry Murbach]

LET ME THINK ABOUT THIS....YOUR BROTHER FROM THE U. S. OF A. GOES TO CANUCKLAND TO VISIT YOU AND SELLS YOU AN OLD RIFLE HE HAS.........SO TELL ME SHEPHERD, WHO THE FLOCK IS GONNA KNOW....AND IF NO ONE BUT THE TWO OF YOU KNOW, WHO ELSE COULD POSSIBLY CARE....YOUR LACK OF DEVIOUSNESS IS SHOWING HERE AND WE 'MERKINS FIND THAT LACK TO BE DISTINCTLY UN-NERVING AS WE LEARNED IT FROM PUTTING THE BIG WOOD TO AN ENGLISH KING....TWICE.

[AJMD429]

I'm kinda with Terry on that. If it were an AR-15 or something post-1968, obviously there'd be different concerns.

It IS frusturating how seldom you can get a straightforward answer from a bureaucrat, whether you're dealing with a gun law, tax law, health insurance, zoning, or whatever.

Lots of the problem is there are too MANY laws, and they are far too COMPLEX. Thus, even a 'nice' bureaucrat who is trying to give you an honest answer, will still be unable, or if they do commit to an answer, you may later find out it was 'wrong' and the bureaucrat has transferred to another department. Even if they admit they accidentally misled you, you're the one 'in trouble' so it really is a bad system.

[Modoc ED]

If your brother can legally get the rifle into Canada, then any x-fer of the firearm while in Canada would fall under Canadian Law. I see no problem with him selling you a rifle in Canada as long as it is legal under Canadian Law.

[KirkD]

Well Terry, you are absolutely right. But I would not even want to suggest to my brother-in-law to break the laws of his own country (no matter how ridiculous they might be) while he is up here visiting me, even if he was totally fine with it. So I'd like to know what the law is before I make any suggestions to him. If it turns out that US law forbids him to sell me his rifle while he's up here visiting me, then I'm not even going to raise the subject with him.

Bottom LIne: Can an American, while in another country, sell his old Winchester to someone in that other country in a legal sale within that other country, without getting into deep doo-doo when he gets back to the USA with the ATF, Homeland Security, or other US authorities?

Thus far, I've brought a few old Winchesters into Canada from the US, but they were through a FFL dealer who had to get a US export permit, required by US law. This is a different case, however, and I'm wondering if the export permit is required for a private individual already in another country with his rifles.

[mescalero1]

An american can sell a gun face to face to anyone, I think the only exception would be to someone he KNEW was an ex felon.
The real question is what kind of trouble your BIL can get into transporting the gun into Canada?

[Leverluver]

It's called "exporting a rifle" and yes, it is technically illegal to do so without an export permit. The folks you need to talk to are at the US State Dept. They control what can and cannot be exported when it comes to firearms. In the olden days, it was not uncommon to "leave" a rifle in Africa to either use on another hunt or to, in reality, leave as a gift to the ph or other person. I sure wouldn't want to try that these days. You would have to talk to the State Dept and see if you firearm applies but I assure you that most of them are dumber than a box of rocks and if the "firearm" can fire any cartridge that is currently commercially available, they are going to tell you that you need the permit. Common sense left the State Dept many decades ago.

http://www.state.gov/p/wha/rls/fs/2009/114984.htm

You can tell by the first few paragraphs just what they think of us heathens and our firearms.

[Don McDowell]

I think Mescalero may have hit the big stickler.
We have to apply to the Canadian government for a permit, to bring an approved firearm across the border. The big question might come up when he comes back across the border without that rifle?
I know from talking to the bpcr folks from Canada they have a dickens of a time getttng new rifles from Shiloh, CSharps etc, mostly due to Canadian import rules.

[Leverluver]

Contact this fellow and ask his opinion. I used him a couple of times and he is a great guy. He's from Europe (Austria I think) and now lives in Colorado. He knows all the ins and outs of getting something firearms related to where it needs to go, and not just Europe either.

http://etssincusa.com/

And yes, As Don said, coming back across the border without the gun is where you get your butt in a sling

[44magHunter]

I'm with Terry on this. I mean it is none of their business anyway...........

[adirondakjack]

The State Department is gonna tell you that you need a permit to ship (bring, leave, same thing) a gun, or even a single round of ammo, empty brass, a single bullet) to Canada for transfer to another party, regardless of Canadian law. The US signed onto a treaty a while back, at the behest of JAMAICA, to lock down the shipping of guns and ammo within the western hemisphere by any but licensed folks. I inquired about such a license, and US Dept of State was kind enough to tell me it takes about 18-24 mos, and filing fees etc will cost nearly TWO GRAND, and they strongly advised me to get a lawyer.

Not tellin ya what to do, but if you TRY and come back into the country without the rifle ya left with, yer gonna be doing a bunch of "splainin", and I hear Federal detention facilities are not a nice place to spend the next several holidays while they figure you out.......

[KirkD]

I know from talking to the bpcr folks from Canada they have a dickens of a time getttng new rifles from Shiloh, CSharps etc, mostly due to Canadian import rules.

There are no Canadian import rules for non-restricted firearms such as the Shiloh Sharps, etc. except that they be registered, which is a simple matter of a phone call to the registry folks giving them make, model and serial number. I'm not sure what these fellows were talking about, but I've brought several firearms into Canada through Canada customs. The only hitch, and it is a big one, is that the US does not permit a Shiloh Sharps to be shipped to Canada without a US export permit (unless it is deemed to be an antique, in which case there are no laws at all on either side of the border and it can just be popped into the mail). There are only a few FFL dealers in the US that bother to go to the trouble of applying for a US export permit and it takes time and money to get one, usually $100 to $250 and a few months wait. I've done that several times.

I've talked to several dealers in the US who all seem to think it is a problem with Canadian laws. It is not. The problem is that most dealers do not want to go to the bother of getting an export permit from the US State Department, for reasons that AdirondackJack mentioned. Canada requires no permit and this I've confirmed directly, and personally. Believe it or not, the US State Department requires a Canadian import permit (even though Canada does not), before they will issue a US export permit for the rifle to leave the country. Getting a Canadian import permit is a matter of faxing a one-page application and getting the permit in the mail a couple weeks later. I then send this on down to the FFL dealer who then attaches it to his export permit application, and then he sends it off to the US State Dept. We then wait a couple months until the export permit shows up at the FFL dealer holding my rifle.

However, all this is for commercial operations. From what I could find regarding the US laws, the requirements for commercial dealers are different from the requirements for private sales, although I could not find what those private requirements were.

As Terry said, a private deal where no questions were asked and no authorities were consulted would be straight forward and everyone would be happy. However, I know some authorities in the US are sensitive about Americans supplying firearms to foreigners (even if it is an old Winchester), and there is not a chance I would even think about creating a situation were I got my brother-in-law into trouble. This is a case where I simply will not do it unless someone points me to a section in the law, chapter and verse, that says that I can. From what I'm seeing thus far, it looks like my BIL cannot legally do it, so I'm not even going to raise it with him. I just wish that ATF would have had the courage to come right out and tell me so when I asked in print for an answer.

[meanc]

Don't know what state your BIL resides, but unless it's CA, NJ, DC, there is no registration of firearms. So more than likely only he and relatives know it even exists, especially considering its age.

With that said, more than likely only he and relatives will even know it's not here.

[Leverluver]

meanc it gets registered at the border. As an American, just try (legally) getting into Canada without the Canadian permit to cross the border with a firearm. The permit is easy (US hunters get them all the time) and cheap but at that point the firearm's details are also transferred to the US State Dept and they KNOW you left the country with a firearm. You darn well better come back with it or have a very good reason why not (if it's at the bottom of Lake Erie, you better have pictures).

Kirk, sorry, in all my reading covering the export regulations (I manufactured firearms related equipment that fell under their jurisdiction), as far as the State Dept is concerned, I know of no differentiation between a commercial transaction and one between individuals. If it left the country, then it was exported. If a company requires export, they get the license. If an individual exports, they go through a licensed exporter that charges a fee for doing the paperwork. And you are correct, it is all the US's $&%# as I never had any problems with Europe, Canada, Australia, or pretty much any other country. The problem was at my own front door.

[marlinman93]

I'm confused? I asked about bringing an old Marlin (not antique) up for a hunting trip, and was told there would be no problem, just pay the $25 permit fee and fill out the papers to bring it into Canada. Now you're saying there is no permit, and no fee????
I was also told the fee and permit would not be required if the gun was locked and sealed during travel in Canada, enroute to Alaska.
What gives?

Check this site:
http://www.losttarget.com/firearmcanada.html

[Leverluver]

If you are going to (maybe not through to Alaska, I don't know) Canada, yes, you will need the permit. It is easy to get and cheap but once that's done, they AND US customs/State know all about your rifle, model, serial# etc. Remember back when this was instituted, everyone was in an uproar about the US getting the Canadian permit information was defacto registration, which in fact, it is.

[KirkD]

I'm confused? I asked about bringing an old Marlin (not antique) up for a hunting trip, and was told there would be no problem, just pay the $50 permit fee and fill out the papers to bring it into Canada. Now you're saying there is no permit, and no fee????
I was also told the fee and permit would not be required if the gun was locked and sealed during travel in Canada, enroute to Alaska.
What gives?

There's no permit required for a Canadian importing a firearm into Canada. For example, if I purchase a firearm in the USA and take delivery at the border, I can bring it across without any permit, provided I have registered it (a matter of a phone-call).

However if you are not a Canadian, there are two ways to bring firearms into Canada. See http://www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/cfp-pcaf/fs-f ... te-eng.htm

Option one: send in your permit application (downloadable off the web) and pay a flat rate of $25 regardless of the number of guns you are bringing. This is the way to go if you are just doing it only occasionally. The 'registration' ends when you return to the USA, simply because the firearms is no longer trackable at that point (i.e., it can be privately bought and sold and there is no way they can know).

Option Two: If you want to do it a lot, then get a PAL (Possession and Acquisition License), which is free, but you do have to pay for and pass a course. You then register the firearms you want to bring in the Canadian registry (phone call or on the web) and you receive a certificate for each registered gun, which proves that they are legally your firearms. You can then bring your firearms back and forth across the border with no permit and no fee as often as you want. This option is more work to set up, but once you've done it, you have no-hassle, no-permit, no-fee transport across the border for the rest of your life, provided you renew your PAL every 5 years, which is free.

The grey area comes in option two, because if you are bring firearms into Canada using option two, the US government does not know what guns you actually take out of the country on any particular trip or sell while out of country, and Canada does not care, since they are registered and since the Canada Border Guards will not be keeping track of which particular guns you have with you on this trip as long as you have the reg. certs. Furthermore, because you have a PAL, the website I link to above specifically states that an American can legally sell those registered firearms in Canada to a Canadian. Also, under option two, an American can legally purchase guns in Canada, although the US may not permit you to bring them back into the USA without a US import permit, although they will not know where you acquired them. In this grey area, a lot of firearms can be bought and sold perfectly legally by Canadian standards but probably not by US standards, which is why it is a bit grey (or more accurately, white for Canada, black for the USA).

For those Americans concerned about having a firearm that is registered in Canada (and therefore the USA), you can cancel your registration at any time if you decide to no longer bring it into Canada. Once the registration is canceled, it disappears from the radar, since it is no longer trackable. They have a hard enough time tracking the legal transfers (which were over 600,000 in 2008), forget about guessing what happens to a firearm once it is de-registered. They average almost 2,000 firearms transfers per day here, all typed in by human beings ...... the number of typos is truly astounding. Because firearms in Canada are constantly changing hands (almost 2,000 per day), once a firearm is de-registered, they know that there is no point in keeping track who last owned it when it was still registered.

[Old Ironsights]

If you are going to (maybe not through to Alaska, I don't know) Canada, yes, you will need the permit. It is easy to get and cheap but once that's done, they AND US customs/State know all about your rifle, model, serial# etc. Remember back when this was instituted, everyone was in an uproar about the US getting the Canadian permit information was defacto registration, which in fact, it is.

Oddly enough, back when I drove the Top of the World Highway and came down through Dawson, the only thing asked of me by the Canadian Border folks was "Do you have a firearm? The bears are just coming out of hibernation..."

Never paid any sort of fee to lug the 12ga around while soft-side camping that spring.

???

[PaulB]

Why would you assume phone advice from ATF is going to keep you or your brother out of jail? They will tell you whatever, then happily prosecute your tail anyway. And not even be embarrassed about the bad advice they gave you.

Go to jpfo.org and read some of the ATF horror stories. You will soon realize how little trust they deserve.

[KirkD]

Why would you assume phone advice from ATF is going to keep you or your brother out of jail? They will tell you whatever, then happily prosecute your tail anyway. And not even be embarrassed about the bad advice they gave you.

The last time they gave me advice on the phone, they also referenced it. I was then able to download the exact section of the US law, print it off, and kept it with the firearm as it went through customs. Did that several times, and no hassles given that US border guards could see for themselves, chapter and verse what the law was, not that they particularly needed the photocopy. Nevertheless, it sure greases the wheels to have photocopies of the relevant sections sometimes.

All that said, I do not trust the government nor anyone else anymore than I have to. I like to make sure all my T's are crossed and my I's dotted, then I fly below the radar. I know all about fishing expeditions, etc. and do not liked to be noticed. The general rule at the border is to just answer the questions in a professional manner but do not volunteer any other information. If worst comes to worst and I am pulled over, I have all my paperwork in order and can be on my way forthwith.

[Nate Kiowa Jones]

An american can sell a gun face to face to anyone, I think the only exception would be to someone he KNEW was an ex felon.
The real question is what kind of trouble your BIL can get into transporting the gun into Canada?

Well, not exactly. I'm not saying it doesn't happen but it is against the ATF rules to transfer ownership face to face or otherwise to someone that does not reside in your home state.

This is from the ATF Website under FAQ's

B. UNLICENSED PERSONS


(B1) To whom may an unlicensed person transfer firearms under the GCA? [Back]


A person may sell a firearm to an unlicensed resident of his State, if he does not know or have reasonable cause to believe the person is prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms under Federal law. A person may loan or rent a firearm to a resident of any State for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes, if he does not know or have reasonable cause to believe the person is prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms under Federal law. A person may sell or transfer a firearm to a licensee in any State. However, a firearm other than a curio or relic may not be transferred interstate to a licensed collector.

[18 U.S.C. 922(a)(3) and (5), 922(d), 27 CFR 478.29 and 478.30]



(B2) From whom may an unlicensed person acquire a firearm under the GCA? [Back]

A person may only acquire a firearm within the person’s own State, except that he or she may purchase or otherwise acquire a rifle or shotgun, in person, at a licensee's premises in any State, provided the sale complies with State laws applicable in the State of sale and the State where the purchaser resides. A person may borrow or rent a firearm in any State for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes.

[18 U.S.C. 922(a)(3) and (5), 922(b)(3), 27 CFR 478.29 and 478.30]



(B3) May an unlicensed person obtain a firearm from an out-of-State source if the person arranges to obtain the firearm through a licensed dealer in the purchaser’s own State? [Back]


A person not licensed under the GCA and not prohibited from acquiring firearms may purchase a firearm from an out-of-State source and obtain the firearm if an arrangement is made with a licensed dealer in the purchaser's State of residence for the purchaser to obtain the firearm from the dealer.

[18 U.S.C. 922(a)(3) and 922(b)(3)]

kirk,
If you need some help getting that gun up there email me and I'll put you in touch with the import/export service that I use. He is in Blaine Wa. just over the border from Vancouver and he just walks them over with the correct paperwork. I have sent several guns your way through him and I currently have a new Win Miruko 86 headed to Quebec, waiting on paperwork.

[mescalero1]

NKJ,
Thanks, did not think about a state rquirement.

[Ysabel Kid]

What right does the ATF - or any other government alphabet-soup agency - have in determing what one law-abiding person sells to another law-abiding person. This is a property-rights issue - and a Second Amendment issue - and the government has no right or say in the matter.

Kirk - my own two cents, worth exactly that. If your BIL can legally transport the rifle across the border, without violating either countrys' laws, and if he can legally sell it to you in Canada and you can legally buy it, then the US government at that point has absolutely no say in the matter. You are on the sovereign soil of Canada, and should only have to worry about your own hair-brained firearms laws, and not ours!

[Gun Smith]

I kind of got lost (happening more frequently) in all the discussion, but am I wrong here to think the easiest way to do this is to have your kin use a licensed transfer agent in the US to send it to you?