.45 colt recoil

[kmittleman]

Hi all,


I was again reading up about these various loads and noted that several folks have said that the .45 colt even with heavy hunting loads has less recoil than a comparable .44 mag load. Is this true?

-kevin

[Old Savage]

One of the factors with recoil from my point of view is the pressure of the load. 44 mags operate at higher pressures.

[J Miller]

Hi all,


I was again reading up about these various loads and noted that several folks have said that the .45 colt even with heavy hunting loads has less recoil than a comparable .44 mag load. Is this true?

-kevin

Yes it's true. As OS said the 44s operate at a highter pressure and that pressure is what makes the recoil sharper and harder.
However once the bullets get over 300grs and the velocity goes up the 45 Colt can get to the point of creating pain.

Joe

[Old Savage]

Oh yes Joe, you can certainly run the pressure up in the 45 Colt too. I think Seyfried developed some 70,000 lb loads for a FA revolver - not for me boy.

[J Miller]

Oh yes Joe, you can certainly run the pressure up in the 45 Colt too. I think Seyfried developed some 70,000 lb loads for a FA revolver - not for me boy.

Oh yeah, I remember reading some of his articles. They made me afraid to look at the pictures even. The hottest loads I've shot out of my 7.5" OM BH, Winchester and Marlin are the 300gr CorBon JSP at 1300fps and a load with a 300gr TCFP over a stout load of 2400. This came from the Hodgdon #26 hard back manual and was rated at 30K CUP.
That is as hot as I care to go. I know many people consider loads at this level as plinking loads, but I see no reason to push them any farther.


Joe

[Griff]

While performance of some .45Colt loads can equal that of a .44Mag (in appropriate arms), those will likely equal the recoil also. (For every action there is an equal reaction); just because you change from a .429 to a .452 doesn't negate the laws of physics.

BUT, others factors are in play... gun weight being a biggie, however more importantly, is efficiency. which is sometimes counter-intuitive; a heavy, slow bullet can give better penetration than a faster, light bullet. Thaat heavy slow bullet can achieve its needed velocity a much lower pressures, combine that with a heavier gun and you have greatly reduced felt recoil.

Edited: Ignore me, Terry said below what I was trying to say, SOOO MUCH better!!!

[Terry Murbach]

YES IT IS TRUE, STARTINGLY SO AS A MATTER OF FACT. THE BEAUTY OF THE 45COLT IS THE FACT IT WILL DO WITH LOW PRESSURE LOADS WHAT THE 44MAG WILL DO LOADED TO THE GUNWALES.
THE 45COLT WITH A 300gr BULLET AT 1100fps WILL SHOOT THROUGH ANY ANIMAL IN NORTH AMERICA AND DO IT WITH A REAL-HONEST-TO-GOD 45 CALIBER BULLET.
DO NOT FORGET,THE 44MAG ISN'T EVEN A TRUE 44, IT IS A 43 CALIBER CARTRIDGE AND THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN 45 AND 43 IN A REAL LIVING BEAST IS PALPABLE.
THE BEST PART IS YOU CAN SHOOT 45COLT 300gr BULLETS AT 1100fps IN THE OLD DESIGN GUNS LIKE A COLT SAA OR A UBERTI SAA WITH LOW PRESSURE LOADS AND HAVE THE LIGHTEST OF CARRYING PISTOLS WITH REAL SMACK-'EM-ON-THEIR-FANNY POWER. LOVERLY !!!

[J Miller]

YES IT IS TRUE, STARTINGLY SO AS A MATTER OF FACT. THE BEAUTY OF THE 45COLT IS THE FACT IT WILL DO WITH LOW PRESSURE LOADS WHAT THE 44MAG WILL DO LOADED TO THE GUNWALES.
THE 45COLT WITH A 300gr BULLET AT 1100fps WILL SHOOT THROUGH ANY ANIMAL IN NORTH AMERICA AND DO IT WITH A REAL-HONEST-TO-GOD 45 CALIBER BULLET.
DO NOT FORGET,THE 44MAG ISN'T EVEN A TRUE 44, IT IS A 43 CALIBER CARTRIDGE AND THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN 45 AND 43 IN A REAL LIVING BEAST IS PALPABLE.
THE BEST PART IS YOU CAN SHOOT 45COLT 300gr BULLETS AT 1100fps IN THE OLD DESIGN GUNS LIKE A COLT SAA OR A UBERTI SAA WITH LOW PRESSURE LOADS AND HAVE THE LIGHTEST OF CARRYING PISTOLS WITH REAL SMACK-'EM-ON-THEIR-FANNY POWER. LOVERLY !!!

Terry, I'd like to try some of those 300/1100 loads. Where would I find data for them? Especially due to the part about being able to shoot them Colts and Ubertis.
Also which bullet would you recommend?

Joe

[Buck Elliott]

YES IT IS TRUE, STARTINGLY SO AS A MATTER OF FACT. THE BEAUTY OF THE 45COLT IS THE FACT IT WILL DO WITH LOW PRESSURE LOADS WHAT THE 44MAG WILL DO LOADED TO THE GUNWALES.
THE 45COLT WITH A 300gr BULLET AT 1100fps WILL SHOOT THROUGH ANY ANIMAL IN NORTH AMERICA AND DO IT WITH A REAL-HONEST-TO-GOD 45 CALIBER BULLET.
DO NOT FORGET,THE 44MAG ISN'T EVEN A TRUE 44, IT IS A 43 CALIBER CARTRIDGE AND THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN 45 AND 43 IN A REAL LIVING BEAST IS PALPABLE.
THE BEST PART IS YOU CAN SHOOT 45COLT 300gr BULLETS AT 1100fps IN THE OLD DESIGN GUNS LIKE A COLT SAA OR A UBERTI SAA WITH LOW PRESSURE LOADS AND HAVE THE LIGHTEST OF CARRYING PISTOLS WITH REAL SMACK-'EM-ON-THEIR-FANNY POWER. LOVERLY !!!

Terry, I'd like to try some of those 300/1100 loads. Where would I find data for them? Especially due to the part about being able to shoot them Colts and Ubertis.
Also which bullet would you recommend?

Joe

Terry gets his reloads from Wes Dakota...

[HEAD0001]

There is no doubt that pressure and bullet weight have an effect on recoil. However I also believe that the firearem of choice is every bit as influential as the cartridge itself. Now by this I mean felt recoil. Stock design, grip design and angle, barrel length, weapon weight, ported or not. Too many factors. I have seen the most whicked recoiling firearms be tamed with recoil reducing accessories.

For me I can not tell any felt recoil difference between my 44's and 45's with stout loads. However the only stout 45 Colt loads I have shot so far is in my Low Wall, and that is not exactly a rifle that a recoil sensitive person would shoot. All my other 45 Colt's are SAA's and I only shoot light loads in them, so that comparison would not count. Tom.

[fstdraw]

Umm...I'd be very careful about telling someone to load anything above .45 cal. factory loads. I think 300/1100 loads are a bit too stout for regular .45 long colt pistols. I do load monster loads for my '94 Winchester Trapper, with pleasing results. I've used the information garnerd here and from other sources, to put several "hot" loads together. Upwards of 1500 fps plus, with 240 to 300 gr. bullets. For my pistols in .45 LC- Uberti, EMF and the like, 700 to 900 fps tops, and I'm careful about that as well. Just my 2 penny's worth. Good shooting!

[J Miller]

fstdraw,

I don't think anybody told anybody to load up such rounds, they just said you could.

Now where can I find that Wes Dakota............


Joe

[Don McDowell]

Hi all,


I was again reading up about these various loads and noted that several folks have said that the .45 colt even with heavy hunting loads has less recoil than a comparable .44 mag load. Is this true?

-kevin

No its not true.
Launching a 250 gr .452 diameter bullet from a Ruger blackhawk at 1350 fps, offers little to no difference in felt recoil of launching a 250 gr .429 diameter bullet at 1350 fps from a Ruger Blackhawk or Super Blackhawk.

Tone the 45 down to around 1000 fps where it does its best work anyway, and it's not bad to handle at all.

[Paul Jenkins]

Gentlemen,
All the bull aside, a 250 gr. bullet at 1350 fps WILL give the same recoil as as a 250gr. at 1350 fps, Given the same gun weight. In a nut shell. The law of physics . Indisputible.

[Terry Murbach]

Gentlemen,
All the bull aside, a 250 gr. bullet at 1350 fps WILL give the same recoil as as a 250gr. at 1350 fps, Given the same gun weight. In a nut shell. The law of physics . Indisputible.

NO, NOT QUITE. IF THE PRESSURE IS THE SAME THE RECOIL WILL BE THE SAME. BUT IN THE CASE OF A 45COLT AND A 44MAG WITH THE STATISTICS YOU NOTE THE 44MAG WILL HAVE NOTICEABLY HIGHER RECOIL WITH THAT NASTY SNAP AT THE END CAUSED BY THE JET EFFECT OF IT'S MUCH HIGHER PRESSURE GASES EXITING THE BORE RIGHT BEHIND THE PROJECTILE. THE 45COLT WILL BE A BIG PUSH WITH NO SNAP AT THE END.

[adirondakjack]

Terry, I love ya buddy, but yer wrong on this one.

I've been doing a lot of work over the years with .45, both in LONG COLT cases and in my Cowboy .45 Special (ACP-length) cases. Now it stands to reason that if I wanna shoot a 250 grain bullet at a paltry 1000 fps out of the C45S, I am gonna develop MUCH more pressure than I would to get the same results in LONG COLT brass with TWICE the case capacity under the bullet. Yet I can and I have developed "twin" loads that I can and I have shot in the same ruger BH or Vaquero, alternating them, and they shoot to the same POI and have indistinguishable recoil. The only differece is the SOUND. Newton's Laws do not get repealed.

I've also shot 318 grainers at 1300 fps (long colt brass) out of a rock stock vaquero wearing factory wood grips, or out of my 7.5" BH, and either are what my son calls "sick", full 90 degree rotation, flame-throwing (H110) and LOUD. I got scars on my fingers from such loads. The same results with a .44 Mag out of a super BH are gonna hurt LESS because the gun is heavier (forget the rib, the smaller holes in the steel mean it weighs more). You are correct that a 45 VS a .43 is a palpable difference, and yes, the .45 barrel is a good bit lighter, contributing to more muzzle flip (or faster muzzle flip) VS the heavier barrel with the smaller .429 hole in it.

[Don McDowell]

Looking at the pressure data on Hogdons site, confirms pretty much what my gun hand has been telling me for nearly 40 years, with +p 45 colt loads compared to 44magnum loads there's not enough difference to get excited about.

[Terry Murbach]

Terry, I love ya buddy, but yer wrong on this one.

I've been doing a lot of work over the years with .45, both in LONG COLT cases and in my Cowboy .45 Special (ACP-length) cases. Now it stands to reason that if I wanna shoot a 250 grain bullet at a paltry 1000 fps out of the C45S, I am gonna develop MUCH more pressure than I would to get the same results in LONG COLT brass with TWICE the case capacity under the bullet. Yet I can and I have developed "twin" loads that I can and I have shot in the same ruger BH or Vaquero, alternating them, and they shoot to the same POI and have indistinguishable recoil. The only differece is the SOUND. Newton's Laws do not get repealed.

I've also shot 318 grainers at 1300 fps (long colt brass) out of a rock stock vaquero wearing factory wood grips, or out of my 7.5" BH, and either are what my son calls "sick", full 90 degree rotation, flame-throwing (H110) and LOUD. I got scars on my fingers from such loads. The same results with a .44 Mag out of a super BH are gonna hurt LESS because the gun is heavier (forget the rib, the smaller holes in the steel mean it weighs more). You are correct that a 45 VS a .43 is a palpable difference, and yes, the .45 barrel is a good bit lighter, contributing to more muzzle flip (or faster muzzle flip) VS the heavier barrel with the smaller .429 hole in it.

HOLY SHIQ, YOU MEAN TO TELL ME I AM WRONG AGAIN ??!!! I WAS WRONG ONCE BACK IN '66 AND HAVE NOT HEARD THE END OF IT YET !!

[gundownunder]

I use the "pointblank" program for working out most things gun related and when I want to get recoil data I need to put in;
1/ bullet weight
2/ powder weight
3/ velocity
4/ gun weight

So I would assume that if you can match all these numbers in both a .44 and a .45 you would get equal recoil from both. Variation in any of these figures will cause variation in recoil.
Bear in mind too that real recoil and felt recoil may be different, like a Rossi with a steel butt is going to feel different to a rifle the same weight with a more comfortable butt.

By the way, if "pointblank" is still available on the net as a freeware program I would highly recommend it. I've had mine for years now and it does everything I need.

[J Miller]

All I know is that every .44 Mag I've ever fired has bit the hand that held it. And equivalent loads from my .45s are easier on my hands.
In this case I don't think programs and calculations are needed. Just shoot the guns side by side and see for yourself. If you feel the difference you do, if you don't, you don't.
I've felt the difference, and it exists. I refuse to shoot a Ruger SBH with that gawd awful dragoon grip frame because of it.

Joe

[Doc Hudson]

It also depends on the rifle you shoot, as well as the load.

I've shot some rifles in .45 LC that were as mild mannered as a fellow could ask.

Then again, I've shot John Killebrew's Pitchfork Rifle (A Model 1873 in .45 LC with a crescent buttplate). That sucker hurt!

Point is, if the stock fits, neither are uncomfortable.

[Buck Elliott]

All I know is that every .44 Mag I've ever fired has bit the hand that held it. And equivalent loads from my .45s are easier on my hands.
In this case I don't think programs and calculations are needed. Just shoot the guns side by side and see for yourself. If you feel the difference you do, if you don't, you don't.
I've felt the difference, and it exists. I refuse to shoot a Ruger SBH with that gawd awful dragoon grip frame because of it.

Joe

The BIG problem with the SBH grip frame is its overall geometry: it's far too 'cone-shaped' from all aspects to be effective at reducing felt recoil. remove some of the width at the bottom, and add just a bit of width at the top, then make room for the fingers, and voila..! as they say in frog-land.

[Catshooter]

I've had two rifles in .45 Colt:

Winchester 94 Trapper weighs less than six pounds,

Taylor's 92. This one had a half round 20 inch barrel, so it weighed exactly one pound more than the Trapper.

I can run the 255 Keith at 1570 fps from the Trapper for a full silhouette match, no sweat.

One round out that cresant steel butt plate from the Taylor's and I'd wanna pull up my diaper and go home. Same load, of course.

And by the way, that load did about 10 fps less out of the Taylor's than the four inch shorter Winchester.


Cat

[BenT]

This is so on topic today. I've been looking for a Bisley Blackhawk for a while not caring if it's 45 or 44. But if I was to buy a new one it would be 45 just because I have all the reloading stuff. I stopped buy the gunshop today to order up the 45 Bisley , when here they have a used 44mag in excellent shape with the box for a $100 less than new. So I left the shop not ordering anything to ponder this. I could buy the 44 , but would easily spend $100 on reloading stuff.

The reason I'm doing this is because I shot a deer last year with my Uberti and wasn't impressed on how far the deer went before dying. So I would like to get a 250 gr load between 1100 fps and 1200fps.

I've heard the less felt recoil with the 45 comment before and I thought it was because a 44 bullet of same weight would have more surface area in contact with the barrel . Equating to more resistance thus more pressure needed to push it the same velocity as a 45. The wieght of the bullets in different calibers has the same mass , but that is just part of the equation when figuring out pressure and what the reaction to that would be.

[Catshooter]

This is so on topic today. I've been looking for a Bisley Blackhawk for a while not caring if it's 45 or 44. But if I was to buy a new one it would be 45 just because I have all the reloading stuff. I stopped buy the gunshop today to order up the 45 Bisley , when here they have a used 44mag in excellent shape with the box for a $100 less than new. So I left the shop not ordering anything to ponder this. I could buy the 44 , but would easily spend $100 on reloading stuff.

You certainly could/would spend $100 to set up, I would have to spend more to set up for a new caliber.

I've heard the less felt recoil with the 45 comment before and I thought it was because a 44 bullet of same weight would have more surface area in contact with the barrel . Actually, since the .45 is further around (larger circumfrence due to larger diameter) the .45 has a larger barrel/bullet surface contact area. Equating to more resistance thus more pressure needed to push it the same velocity as a 45. The wieght of the bullets in different calibers has the same mass , but that is just part of the equation when figuring out pressure and what the reaction to that would be.

Rifling engangement and the bullet's resistance to start all that turning business is part of the recoil equation. When the main gun on the Abrams tank changed from rifled to smooth bore the military discovered that they didn't need the muzzle brake any more.

All this means: go back and order the .45! What were you thinking?


Cat

[J Miller]

BenT,

When you hunt deer with a standard pressure .45 Colt load out of a Colt or Uberti or anything else, it's all shooter and bullet. You have to put that bullet where it will do the most damage, and the bullet must be of a shape that will do the damage.
An RNFP is almost useless. Not much better than a round nose like they use in the .45ACP. Most of the JHPs wont reliably expand at the impact velocities either. So you gotta use a bullet with a good flat meplat like a Keith or one of them other WFNLNGCFP kinds.
Now, our buddy Terry Murbach alluded to the fact there are 300gr loads that make 1100fps that are safe to use in the Colts and copies. So by looking in the various loading manuals I'm sure you can find a load like that for the 250gr bullet.


..............................................................................

Buck,

The XR3-RED grips also suffer from this cone shape syndrome. I've been experimenting with my Rugers and trying various grips I've accumulated. I put the XR3-RED frame back on one for testing. Some of the grips are just so out of proportion I'd never consider them, but they do prove a point.
Compared to the XR3 grip, the XR3-RED factory grip panels are significantly more cone shaped. When I hold an empty Ruger fitted with the XR3 and pull the trigger the gun is pushed back into my palm where it stays. There is no tendency to for the grip to roll down out of my hand. When I do the same thing with the XR3-RED, instead of being pushed into my palm, the grip therefore the entire gun actually wants to roll down out of my hand. It takes much more grip pressure to hold it.
If I use the aftermarket grips I have, one set of hard rubber Classic checkered grips, and a set of AJAX (I think) Mother of Pearl that are wider at the top this doesn't happen.

Now imagine this with a loaded round. The sharper recoil of the .44 is going to be felt more and be harder to control than the less sharp recoil of the .45.
That is why so many shooters opt for the grip panels that are fatter all the way around. They don't need that, but it does compensate for the cone shaped panels.

I suspect that's why I don't have problems with my XR3 grips. Although they roll in my hand, they are less cone shaped so they are much easier to control.
I have an extra set of XR3-RED grips that I've been considering trimming down to match the dimensions of the XR3s. That should be an interesting experiment.

I hope what I've just typed out is understandable. I you were here in person I could show it easier than putting it into words.


Joe

[BenT]

BenT,

When you hunt deer with a standard pressure .45 Colt load out of a Colt or Uberti or anything else, it's all shooter and bullet. You have to put that bullet where it will do the most damage, and the bullet must be of a shape that will do the damage.
An RNFP is almost useless. Not much better than a round nose like they use in the .45ACP. Most of the JHPs wont reliably expand at the impact velocities either. So you gotta use a bullet with a good flat meplat like a Keith or one of them other WFNLNGCFP kinds.
Now, our buddy Terry Murbach alluded to the fact there are 300gr loads that make 1100fps that are safe to use in the Colts and copies. So by looking in the various loading manuals I'm sure you can find a load like that for the 250gr bullet.

I'm going to switch to a Kieth bullet for hunting . Shoot placement wasn't a problem. But I would like better sights for hunting that's why I'm looking at a new Ruger. Plus I'm ready for something different.


..............................................................................

Buck,

The XR3-RED grips also suffer from this cone shape syndrome. I've been experimenting with my Rugers and trying various grips I've accumulated. I put the XR3-RED frame back on one for testing. Some of the grips are just so out of proportion I'd never consider them, but they do prove a point.
Compared to the XR3 grip, the XR3-RED factory grip panels are significantly more cone shaped. When I hold an empty Ruger fitted with the XR3 and pull the trigger the gun is pushed back into my palm where it stays. There is no tendency to for the grip to roll down out of my hand. When I do the same thing with the XR3-RED, instead of being pushed into my palm, the grip therefore the entire gun actually wants to roll down out of my hand. It takes much more grip pressure to hold it.
If I use the aftermarket grips I have, one set of hard rubber Classic checkered grips, and a set of AJAX (I think) Mother of Pearl that are wider at the top this doesn't happen.

Now imagine this with a loaded round. The sharper recoil of the .44 is going to be felt more and be harder to control than the less sharp recoil of the .45.
That is why so many shooters opt for the grip panels that are fatter all the way around. They don't need that, but it does compensate for the cone shaped panels.

I suspect that's why I don't have problems with my XR3 grips. Although they roll in my hand, they are less cone shaped so they are much easier to control.
I have an extra set of XR3-RED grips that I've been considering trimming down to match the dimensions of the XR3s. That should be an interesting experiment.

I hope what I've just typed out is understandable. I you were here in person I could show it easier than putting it into words.


Joe

[J Miller]

I'm going to switch to a Kieth bullet for hunting . Shoot placement wasn't a problem. But I would like better sights for hunting that's why I'm looking at a new Ruger. Plus I'm ready for something different.

Ben,
I don't know if it matters or not, but I've seen some Keith bullets with a dead flat nose, my Lyman 454424 mold makes them that way. Then I've seen some with a slightly convex nose. I prefer them dead flat like the Lymans, but it probably makes little difference.

I understand the sight issue, as my eyes change I don't know what I shoot best with anymore.

And being ready for something different is the best reason of all. I'm ready too.

Joe

[TX Gun Runner]

Gentlemen,
All the bull aside, a 250 gr. bullet at 1350 fps WILL give the same recoil as as a 250gr. at 1350 fps, Given the same gun weight. In a nut shell. The law of physics . Indisputible.

+1.......... if a 250 gr bullet is shot out of the SAME gun at 1350 fps I don't care if it is a 357 , 40 , 44 or 45 the recoil will be the same and PSI or bullet shape will not change anything , but noise and down range fps . For every action is a equal opposite reacton it is that simple .

http://www.chuckhawks.com/recoil_table.htm
For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction; that is one of the physical laws of our universe. This means that the momentum of a rifle's reaction will exactly equal the momentum of the bullet and powder gasses ejected from the barrel. In the shooting sports we call that reaction recoil or "kick." It can be measured or computed empirically, and has been for this recoil table.

[Don McDowell]

[quote='
going to switch to a Kieth bullet for hunting . Shoot placement wasn't a problem. But I would like better sights for hunting that's why I'm looking at a new Ruger. Plus I'm ready for something different.


][/quote]

Ben the Keith bullets will make a bit more of a larger entrance hole that will allow for somewhat better blood loss, but don't expect anything resembling a spectacular hit on game with a handgun. The velocity just isn't there to exert the kind of forces and shock onto a deer that happens when you hit one with a bullet from a rifle going about twice as fast as from the handgun.
Typically there'll be a dropped pumkin sound when the bullet hits, and if you got the bullet into an artery there'll be some good blood loss, if you got a bit higher into the lungs they'll kick and either run like crazy or hump up and lay down.

[Idiot]

Hi all,


I was again reading up about these various loads and noted that several folks have said that the .45 colt even with heavy hunting loads has less recoil than a comparable .44 mag load. Is this true?

-kevin

No its not true.
Launching a 250 gr .452 diameter bullet from a Ruger blackhawk at 1350 fps, offers little to no difference in felt recoil of launching a 250 gr .429 diameter bullet at 1350 fps from a Ruger Blackhawk or Super Blackhawk.

Tone the 45 down to around 1000 fps where it does its best work anyway, and it's not bad to handle at all.

Ol' Ranch is right.

Recoil is directly related to bullet weight and velocity. Launch two bullets, one of 45 caliber and the other of 43 caliber, at the same velocity, and you will get very similar recoil. That's a fact.

Also, if you send two bullets of equally tough solid construction, weight, and diameter into a target - the bullet launched at a higher velocity will penetrate deeper. That's a fact.

[Don McDowell]

[
Ol' Ranch is right.

Recoil is directly related to bullet weight and velocity. Launch two bullets, one of 45 caliber and the other of 43 caliber, at the same velocity, and you will get very similar recoil. That's a fact.

Also, if you send two bullets of equally tough solid construction, weight, and diameter into a target - the bullet launched at a higher velocity will penetrate deeper. That's a fact.

Thanks for the complement, Idiot, but you realize there's more than a few folks around here gonna think you earned your handle the honest way, saying things like that.

[Idiot]

Thanks for the complement, Idiot, but you realize there's more than a few folks around here gonna think you earned your handle the honest way, saying things like that.

Well, that's a burden I'll have to bear. Besides, us ol' cowboys got to stick together.

[adirondakjack]

IMHO the Ruger BH grips is just fine IF ya simply don't treat it like it was a DA smith. the old SAA and it's children are DESIGNED to roll up in the hand, presenting the hammer for easy re-cocking. It will never be a "slams back" kinda gun under recoil. it's a "rotation" gun. I taught my then 13 yr old, maybe 110 lb kid to shoot it well and happily, two-handed by telling him "Don't fight it. Let it rotate and use your WRISTS and forearms to slow and stop rotation". With full house loads, the BH ends up rotating a full 90 degrees, the muzzle pointed skyward at the stop. If ya let em do that, they don't bite near as bad.

Now, the 5.5" vaquero with the same loads and 2" less barrel weight bit me bad until I discovered the grips needed a bit of de-horning so I could get a better purchase on em. Still, with 318 grainers at 1300 fps, the trigger guard bit me bad enough that blood was dripping off my elbow. I attributed MUCH of that to being out of shape, not having near the hand strength I had when I worked construction (or have re-gained since I now do a lot more manual work.) The short term answer was a padded, fingerless bicycle glove.

But no, it ain't a model 29, nor will it ever act like one. (It'll also stay together a lot longer firing those kinda loads than any smith besides the new X frame)

[rimrock]

I have to back up the old timers on this topic. They just have more experience than us youngsters. The .45 C case is larger in diameter than the .44Mag. The proper scientific principle here is not Newton's law of equal reactions. This is a pressure question. To paraphrase Robert Rinker (p.29 "Understanding Firearm Ballistics--Basic to advanced Ballistics simplified, illustrated & explained", 2007, MulBerrry House Pub.), the larger diameter .45C case will allow the gas molecules to have less frequent collisions than the molecules in the .44Mag which results in less pressure for the same weight bullet at the same fps powder charge.

[Don McDowell]

Well pressures and thereoums and all the rest be darned. I own both 44 magnum and 45 colt in Ruger handguns, also have a couple of 44 specials, one a Colt (that I've been told I know nothing about) and the other a Ruger that started life as a 357, and for all practical intents and purposes when the 45 colt and ANY/EITHER of the 44's are loaded with relatively equal bullet weights to the same velocity, I can't tell any difference in recoil.
I also happen to be one of those weirdo ***'s that like the Super Blackhawk Grip and squared off trigger guard.
Also for what its worth a 5.5 inch barreled vaquero in 44 mag is much more managable with full house loads than one with a 7.5 inch barrel, but that's just me speaking from silly thing like experience and personal preferance again.
Idiot hope you're having a good summer out that way.

[adirondakjack]

I have to back up the old timers on this topic. They just have more experience than us youngsters. The .45 C case is larger in diameter than the .44Mag. The proper scientific principle here is not Newton's law of equal reactions. This is a pressure question. To paraphrase Robert Rinker (p.29 "Understanding Firearm Ballistics--Basic to advanced Ballistics simplified, illustrated & explained", 2007, MulBerrry House Pub.), the larger diameter .45C case will allow the gas molecules to have less frequent collisions than the molecules in the .44Mag which results in less pressure for the same weight bullet at the same fps powder charge.

Pard, hold an air hose in yer hand. can ya FEEL the difference between a 30 psi hose and a 300 psi hose? No, ya can't. A 22 LR makes more PRESSURE than a .38, and a .22 hornet makes a helluva lot more.. Pressure and recoil are apples and ardvaarks.

[piller]

I have shot a few, and for my money, the Bisley grip tames the recoil tremendously. I positively dislike the SBH because of the pain in my second finger from it. My BH in .45 shooting 300 grain Speer JSP pushed by 21 grains of WW296 does still come back with authority. The gun, the grip, the bullet weight, and the velocity are what I have found to make a difference.