Front Loading, Tube Magazine Center-fire Leverguns.

[Griff]

The recent thread about a new Henry .30-30 got me to thinkin'. I don't think my dislike for Henry Repeating Arms oughta come as any big shock to anyone... but... there was one aspect of that gun that has me concerned.

In general my problem with Henry stems from their advertising... Which we should all recognize has hype... but their's is just a little too "over-the-top" for me. To whit: Their ads would have one believe they are somehow the progeny of Benjamin Tyler Henry’s genius… but thy aren’t… no historical connection whatsoever. I find their ads reprehensible. So what, that’s simply my opinion.

But, of more troubling concern is that the magazine is a front loader… (HEY it does have that in common w/the original Henry), yet that in and of itself is of concern to me. The original used rim-fire cartridges, the priming couldn’t come in contact with the previously loaded round when dropped down the tube. Even the new imported 1860 Henry replicas have had some ADs when loaded in a vertical fashion. I take great precautions when loading my .45Colt version; in that I keep a very low angle to avoid a magazine detonation. Once again, this is only my opinion, but I truly feel this loading methodology was a poor choice when so many factory loaded bullets are more “rounded” in nature than true flat-nose bullets.

Quite frankly, if I was given one, I would neither keep it, nor would I transfer to someone else. I would return it post haste to the manufacturer. Or, am I simply being paranoid, is there a mechanism that would make it impossible for the primer to come into contact with the nose of the round loaded in front of it.

I truly hope, and fervently pray that their safety record remains as untarnished as their service record.

Anyone have one in hand and can tell if there's an issue, or am I just being paranoid?

[marlinman93]

The model 1894 Marlin in .32 H&R Magnum is a front loading design, and I haven't heard of any problems with it?

[Griff]

Good point, guess time will tell.

[Pete44ru]

I wouldn't say you were paranoid about that - just that IMHO your fears are unjustified.

Think about how a primer is constructed internally - the primer cup has a dollop of the priming compound in it's "bottom", followed by the anvil - which has a delta point bearing against the (now dry) priming compound, with it's support legs extending toward the mouth of the primer cup, where they will eventually be seated against the bottom of some cartridge's primer pocket, to resist the thrust of a firing pin against the outside of the cup bottom.
The object is to crush that little area of priming compound between the tip of the anvil and the inside bottom of the priming cup, rendering the explosion/spark to ignite the main powder charge.
That is one of the reasons firing pin tips are small - much smaller than most bullet tips, and certainly smaller than the flat nose of the usual bullets recommended for tube magazine rifles.

The flat nose of the bullet will either straddle the entire primer cup, or most of it (depending on caliber) ILO concentrating it's much weaker impact (than a firing pin) on the anvil area.

Hornady's work-around is their flex-tip LeverEvolution bullets - which merely substitute "soft" for "flat".

A "high" primer (factory or handload), where the primer cup isn't fully seated in the primer pocket so the anvil legs are solidly set against the pocket's bottom, is in danger of detonation from almost any inadvertant strike, however (IMHO).
The reason is that when the high primer is struck, it will have a tendancy to seat deeper in the pocket, very fast and possibly not in a locked firing chamber.
When the high primer is forced forward, now it's anvil will act as the crushing force normally delivered by the firing pin, and when it's legs hit the bottom of the pocket, "bang".

(Look to yer primin', Pilgrim. )

.

[AJMD429]

I think the 'percussive' effect of recoil would be greater than the 'drop down the tube' effect.
I am amazed at how many factory rounds (i.e. the Remington .30-30's I just bought) have a fairly firm lead tip that is smaller than a large rifle primer in meplat diameter. They don't seem to detonate though, or at least you don't hear of it. Still, I like the meplat to be larger than the primer diameter, and I like it to be softer lead, and I like the rounds to line up enough that they don't 'angle' and get the 'edge' of the meplat against the primer.

Of course, here's MY answer when it comes to the .44 Mag cartridges...RUGER 96/44 - 12 rounds in three detatchable magazines; makes it easy to cross roads, get in/out of vehicles, and come in the house with chilled winter hands, and not have to cycle 12 rounds through the gun, or even dump them out all loose in my hands to collect grime, snow, or pocket lint. I can keep factory 240 SP's in the gun, 300 gr heavy hard-cast in one magazine, and 180 gr plinking loads separately ready to go in each magazine. Yeah, I know - 'Ooh yuck - look at the ugly barrel band...' Yeah, it is a funny lookingstock, but the funnier thing is that so far, the deer don't seem to laugh at it at all.

[BigMuddy]

I know for a fact that dropping center fire rounds in a front loading tube fed magazine can cause a round to fire! Keep them at or near horizontal when loading them. Trust me on that one. (Was it a high primer?..maybe but I don't think so. Federal primer, softest cup of all brands)

I thought those Henry 30-30's also had loading gates. Maybe it was a dream I had.

[Hagler]

Griff,

Some of the Puma '92s are like that, too. Their .454 is one of them, and, I think, the .480 Ruger, and now, a smaller caliber (.357?; .44 Magnum?), too. However, they all have a loading gate, as well as, the front loading option. So, Henry is not the only company making tube loaders.

Shawn

[AJMD429]

I know for a fact that dropping center fire rounds in a front loading tube fed magazine can cause a round to fire! Keep them at or near horizontal when loading them. Trust me on that one.

Yowza - what cartridge and bullet was it? Damage?

[Pete44ru]

[I know for a fact that dropping center fire rounds in a front loading tube fed magazine can cause a round to fire!]

I certainly hope no person came to harm from it, BigMuddy !

I'd be interested, if you posted the cartridge, and the bullet type (FP/RN/etc) used in the mishap.
Also, was it a long or short mag tube ?

I would opine that maybe Griff's fears aren't unjustified.

.

[Noah Zark]

. . . In general my problem with Henry stems from their advertising... Which we should all recognize has hype... but their's is just a little too "over-the-top" for me. To whit: Their ads would have one believe they are somehow the progeny of Benjamin Tyler Henry’s genius… but thy aren’t… no historical connection whatsoever. I find their ads reprehensible. So what, that’s simply my opinion . . .

Sorta like "Springfield Armory, Inc." in my opinion. It is intentional, to take advantage of the name.

Fiction authors and their agents are famous for inventing pen names that are similar to those of other well-known authors. There are novels written by numerous "Higgins" and "Parker" and others.

It's a "whatever works" sort of thing, IMO.

Noah

[BigMuddy]

It happened several years ago to me at a CAS match. No one was hurt physically, and the only damage was to my "britches". I finished the stage with a different gun, and missed every single rifle shot. Seems I had the "shakes" for some reason.

It was a Uberti Henry replica in 45 Colt. It was a 250 gr RNFP bullet and as I said a Federal primer. I had (and still do) a habit of checking each round with the scientific "finger rub" looking for high primers in my match ammo, but I could have missed one I suppose.

The Henry, when loading, is open on the end so the round just fired out of the gun and down range. The brass exploded and was stuck in the tube, but I got it out ok. I think the low pressure rounds were the reason no damage done to the gun itself.

I had the gun at about a 45 degree angle to load, and was actually following the loading instructions that came with the gun. I have since learned otherwise.

I kept that rifle for a couple more years, but never shot it in competition again. After being a witness to THREE MORE Henry rifles that actually blew up from chain fires, I traded the gun off for a second original '73 in 3w w.c.f.

Not sure if it has anything to do with anything, but every single Henry mis-hap that I have witnessed involved 45 Colt caliber. I now own another one, a steel frame 44 w.c.f.

Some CAS clubs around here outlawed there use because of the mis-haps. I can tell all what I think it the safest way to load these guns. It is not just the front loading tube, but that spring loaded button also. The gun should be laid horizontally to load all cartridges. Then wrap your ENTIRE hand around the rifle, above the cartridges. Then and only then turn the button to lower it with the other hand. If it slips off your finger or thumb, that hand around the gun will stop it short of slamming into the cartridges in the magazine.

If these guns are used in competition, or anywhere really..be EXTRA EXTRA careful when drawing them from a scabbard. If that button hangs up, when it clears the scabbard it can slam into the cartridges and WHAMO!..

Hope I did not hijack the thread. These are really cool guns, but caution is needed. The original Henry did have rim fire cartridges, but there is a reason why the Nelson King patent for a loading gate and a wooden forearm made it the "Improved Henry".

[Griff]

BigMuddy,

You certainly didn't hijack the thread... That is precisely the type of occurrence that led me down that thought process. I ain't sure I remember correctly but rather recently, either here or over on the SASS Wire, someone posted a thread about a Henry AD and presented some pictures of the results. This was the 2nd I'd heard about in the last few years.

As the .45 Colt has an even larger variety of bullet shapes available than does the .30WCF, I wonder if my apprehension is misplaced.

For example all the following are described as Round, Flat Nose bullets:

Both of which are 250 grain bullets of a style common for the .45 Colt.

Then we look at the Winchester and Remington factory lead bullet:


And while many of these are fine for use in a .45 Colt revolver, we need to be cautious of their use in a lever gun; especially sith one that loads from the front.

Now look at a couple of factory loads in my favorite caliber: .30-30


Both of the above bullets are common factory shaped bullets for the .30-30, yet, looking at the nose shape, you YOU want to be dropping them down the tube of a front loading rifle... knowing they are going to land on the primer?

Yes, a much BETTER design is the Sierra Flatnose designed for the .30-30, as it is a true Flat-nose.


Again, tell where my caution is misplaced. Unless there's something about the loading of these that escapes me, I think the potential for a disaster is understated.

Re: the Rossi's in larger, more powerful calibers, I believe they still loaded thru the loading gate, and the mag ztube is screwed in to keep it in position, so it doesn't vibrate out under recoil.

[AJMD429]

Yep. I don't have any anecdotal or 'statistical' references to back up my opinion, but, I want the meplat to be at least as wide as the primer, and accounting for the 'wobble' in the magazine tube, a bit wider, if possible.

Think about it - the 'mishap' above involved a .45 COLT in a rather heavy rifle - what about a .35 Remington, or some other small-caliber round in a heavier recoil gun?

[Griff]

Well, Doc,

At pressent the only front loading, tube magazine rifles using centerfire ammo are the new Henry .30-30, the Uberti Henry reproductions in .44-40 & .45 Colt, and lastly, the Marlin .32Mag 1984.

Of these, only the Henry reproductions in .45 Colt seem to have any antecdotal references... And with as many cowboy action shooters I know using the Henry's and .32 Mags, if there was a problem with those two I would have thought I'd have heard about more'n two instances. But, knowing the ability for the human animal to have the worst result from the best circumstance (Murphy's Law of Relativity), I don't anticipate that those'll be the end of it.

As I tried to reason with the pictures of the "almost pointy" shapes of some .45 Colt bullet designs and the less than flat designs for the .30-30, I sure wish there was more in the way of warnings published.

Ok, just call me the "half-empty glass" kinda guy. I hope I'm wrong. But, if anything... hopefully someone with one of these new-fangled devices will read and heed the need for REALLY flat nose bullets in these rifles... and NOT hold the rifle vertically to load 'em.

[J Miller]

Primers require an impact to fire. BigMuddy's AD and his description of the magazine follower being under spring pressure and slamming down on the cartridges followed by gravity caused impact from dropping the rounds vertically sound like the problem to me. Using caution and loading them in a different manner should cancel the problem.


I've wanted one of the Henry replicas for many years and after reading this thread and one other some where, should I get one I will be VERY careful.

Griff, thanks for starting this thread, may it serve as a warning.

Joe

[Griff]

Primers require an impact to fire. BigMuddy's AD and his description of the magazine follower being under spring pressure and slamming down on the cartridges followed by gravity caused impact from dropping the rounds vertically sound like the problem to me. Using caution and loading them in a different manner should cancel the problem.
I've wanted one of the Henry replicas for many years and after reading this thread and one other some where, should I get one I will be VERY careful.
Griff, thanks for starting this thread, may it serve as a warning.
Joe

Joe, The previous posting where someone showed some pics of a Henry that'd had a mag discharge got my attention also. I have been very careful in the feeding and care of mine.
Also my prefered bullet is:

or one of these:

[Old Savage]

Well now Griff I had a shell go off in the tube of my Ithaca 37. I had to replace the spring and the plastic magazine plug is just chips which I keep in an envelope. Otherwise no damage.

[J Miller]

Primers require an impact to fire. BigMuddy's AD and his description of the magazine follower being under spring pressure and slamming down on the cartridges followed by gravity caused impact from dropping the rounds vertically sound like the problem to me. Using caution and loading them in a different manner should cancel the problem.
I've wanted one of the Henry replicas for many years and after reading this thread and one other some where, should I get one I will be VERY careful.
Griff, thanks for starting this thread, may it serve as a warning.
Joe

Joe, The previous posting where someone showed some pics of a Henry that'd had a mag discharge got my attention also. I have been very careful in the feeding and care of mine.
Also my prefered bullet is:

or one of these:

Griff,
I suppose my favorite bullet would qualify, it's got a big flat meplat and is bigger than the primer by a big bunch. Unfortunately I don't know how a Keith sWC would feed in a Henry replica. I suspect pretty badly.
As for the truncated cone bullets the only ones I've used are the Raniers and the 300gr TCFP double crimp grove bullets. I don't care for either one really. Do you know of any source of 250 -255gr truncated cone cast bullets?

Joe

[DPris]

I had a conversation with Tony Imperato, head guy at Henry, about this issue when they first brought out the gun. They'd originally prototyped a standard loading gate.
Told him about the possibility of a tube detonation, but he wasn't at all worried about it.
Time will tell, but I expect to hear of one someday.

Denis

[edwardyoung]

I had a conversation with Tony Imperato, head guy at Henry, about this issue when they first brought out the gun. They'd originally prototyped a standard loading gate.
Told him about the possibility of a tube detonation, but he wasn't at all worried about it.
Time will tell, but I expect to hear of one someday.

Denis

Apparently not a Henry shill. Well, I'll be.

Who loves you, Denis?

[edwardyoung]

I had a conversation with Tony Imperato, head guy at Henry, about this issue when they first brought out the gun. They'd originally prototyped a standard loading gate.
Told him about the possibility of a tube detonation, but he wasn't at all worried about it.
Time will tell, but I expect to hear of one someday.

Denis

Apparently not a Henry shill. Well, I'll be.

Who loves ya, Denis?

[DPris]

Edwardy,
Uh...I could work on it, maybe?
Denis

[Griff]

Griff,
I suppose my favorite bullet would qualify, it's got a big flat meplat and is bigger than the primer by a big bunch. Unfortunately I don't know how a Keith sWC would feed in a Henry replica. I suspect pretty badly. ... Do you know of any source of 250 -255gr truncated cone cast bullets?
Joe

Joe,
Yer right... those bigm wide Keith type SWCs don't feed well in the Henry replicas or a '66/'73! While the .45 Colt appears to be a straight walled case... the slight increase in diameter of the rim makes it lie at a downward angle on the lifter (carrier)... this puts the lip of the SWC type bullet in direct line with the edge of the chamber mouth. I suppose you could chamfer the mouth of the chamber and they'd feed just fine. (ala "ramping" a 1911 chamber). With the low pressures I don't believe there'd be a downside to that. Maybe Nate or one of the other gunsmiths could elaborate on that.
And no, unfortunately, I'm not aware of a source that has a truncated cone shape in a 250 grain boolit. However, there are several mold makers that'll make just about ANY shape mold you could dream up!