30-30 vs AR15

Tennessee Hayre · Post by **Tennessee Hayre** » Thu Apr 02, 2009 7:00 pm

I always think of the Fist Full Of Dollars when this subject comes up. I like to say "When a man with an 30-30 Lever Gun Meets a Man with an AR15 the man with the AR15 is a dead man" What do ya think. A Draw maybe.

Sixgun · Post by **Sixgun** » Thu Apr 02, 2009 7:05 pm

Personally, I think its the man who knows his rifle and hits first.

Either cartridge will blitz the other dude.------------Sixgun

jeepnik · Post by **jeepnik** » Thu Apr 02, 2009 7:14 pm

Today's AR15/M16 variants (and I really hate to say this) are pretty darned well made, reliable and accurate. Truthfully, depending on the range, I'd have to give the sights on the AR the nod. Now had it been the original version I used way back when, I'd have said if you only had to fire one or two rounds I'd go with the AR. Any more than that, and the lever gun would get the nod. Given my druthers, I'd take and M14 and do the deed way beyond the range of the 30-30.

Of course, I'd have to do it back when I could see that far. Today...

tman · Post by **tman** » Thu Apr 02, 2009 7:25 pm

pretty hard to beat an m-4. us military uses them. i love the model 94, but in a life or death fight,, gotta go with the m-4.

Tennessee Hayre · Post by **Tennessee Hayre** » Thu Apr 02, 2009 7:29 pm

I had to drag an M16 around for 20 years in the army like most of you Vets, and that is the reason i don't own one even though it is an excellent weapon. But you still have to take aim after each shot. A lever gun like the 30-30 does not have much recoil and i agree if you know your rifle I think you could put rounds down range just as well as a mag fed rifle.

Lastmohecken · Post by **Lastmohecken** » Thu Apr 02, 2009 7:32 pm

Tennessee Hayre wrote:I always think of the Fist Full Of Dollars when this subject comes up. I like to say "When a man with an 30-30 Lever Gun Meets a Man with an AR15 the man with the AR15 is a dead man" What do ya think. A Draw maybe.

You can't justify a general statement like that. It could go either way, it always can. The basic law of survival generally dictates whoever gets there the firstest with the mostest wins. Equipment is only part of it, and sometimes it only comes down to who made up their mind first to go ahead and kill the other one. It ain't always the fastest one, or the best shot, or the one using the best equipment, or even the one with the best training, although good training is worth a lot.

And sometimes it's just dumb luck that dictates who lives and who dies.

Otto · Post by **Otto** » Thu Apr 02, 2009 7:35 pm

Tennessee Hayre wrote:I had to drag an M16 around for 20 years in the army like most of you Vets, and that is the reason i don't own one even though it is an excellent weapon. But you still have to take aim after each shot. A lever gun like the 30-30 does not have much recoil and i agree if you know your rifle I think you could put rounds down range just as well as a mag fed rifle.

The AR in .223 or 5.56 has way less recoil than a Winchester 94 in .30-30. I gave mine away because I couldn't take the recoil (yes, as a matter of fact, I AM a girly man).

Jason_W · Post by **Jason_W** » Thu Apr 02, 2009 7:45 pm

Right now, I'd go with the 30-30. It's the cheapest centerfire ammo on the rack right now and since I'm untrained, if I can't do the job with a 6 shot Marlin, I'm screwed anyway. The Jason_W method of gunfighting doesn't require a lot of firepower: Hide until you have a good shot of their back

Tennessee Hayre · Post by **Tennessee Hayre** » Thu Apr 02, 2009 7:48 pm

I have always been told that when in a fire fight the weapon is only half the mind is the other half.

JReed · Post by **JReed** » Thu Apr 02, 2009 7:58 pm

Tennessee Hayre wrote:I have always been told that when in a fire fight the weapon is only half the mind is the other half.

Very true. But I would still take the AR.

Jason_W · Post by **Jason_W** » Thu Apr 02, 2009 8:04 pm

On second thought, none of the above. My weapon of choice will be chocolate chip cookies . . . With arsenic baked in. No one can resist chocolate chip cookies.

Why have we not tried this in Iraq?

Sorry, guys, I have a few beers in me tonight. It's been a tough, disturbing week.

FWiedner · Post by **FWiedner** » Thu Apr 02, 2009 8:06 pm

What range are we talkin' about here? And are we starting with an empty or a loaded chamber, how many rounds in the magazine, and do we get to reload?

If we are starting with an empty chamber, I think the .30-30 could load and fire first and faster.

If we've got range, obstacles and only get one magazine full, I'd go with the AR-15.

Gun to gun with loaded chamber and one shot, I'd call a draw out to 150 yards. Past that and I'd go with the AR-15.

kimwcook · Post by **kimwcook** » Thu Apr 02, 2009 8:11 pm

I've got both and I'll take the AR any day of the week knowing, key word "knowing", I'm going into a hot zone. And, being hypothetical here, I'd still take the AR as a fighting weapon over the 30-30 lever, but I wouldn't feel inadequately outgunned with only a 30-30. Just about as clear as mud?

FWiedner · Post by **FWiedner** » Thu Apr 02, 2009 8:15 pm

I thought we were talkin' about a quick-draw one-on-one scenario.

If there's sneakin' around in the bushes and un-hurried marksmanship involved, I'm not giving advantage to either firearm.

Jason_W · Post by **Jason_W** » Thu Apr 02, 2009 8:21 pm

FWiedner wrote:
If there's sneakin' around in the bushes and un-hurried marksmanship involved, I'm not giving advantage to either firearm.

I sure hope so. Fighting dirty is my only chance.

Post by **Hobie** » Thu Apr 02, 2009 8:50 pm

I would say that the man is the critical component in such a circumstance.

RKrodle · Post by **RKrodle** » Thu Apr 02, 2009 8:51 pm

Here's an interesting article by Ashley Emerson. I met him at a Linebaugh seminer a couple of years ago and he is a Levergun fanatic.

http://www.leverguns.com/articles/thunder_ranch.htm

familyman357 · Post by **familyman357** » Thu Apr 02, 2009 9:04 pm

Using your brain by stalking (if possible) to gain the upper hand isn't dirty. It's smart. How does the saying go? "If you find yourself in a fair fight, you didn't plan properly."

I have both a AR-type carbine (in 5.56 NATO with a collapsible stock and a 14.5" barrel with a permanently-attached long flashhider to bring it to the legal 16" barrel length) and a Marlin 1894C carbine (in .357 Magnum/.38 Special with an 18.5" barrel).

Due to the ballistic hampering to the 5.56 NATO cartridge in this AR-type carbine as a result of the shortish barrel, I think of both of these carbines as good to a little over 100-some yards.

I've been toying with parting-out my AR-type and making the lever action my primary home defense carbine (I'm trying to simplify my life and pare down my firearm accumulation).
Why?
I really like the "romance" of the lever action and its innocuous appearance (I figure that every litlte bit helps in the legal aftermath if I would actually have to use it in defense; I know that that it shouldn't matter, but where I live appearance IS a factor) and I think that either carbine would be effective in any realistic (for me, an urbanite) defense scenario (I've not seen any zombie hordes

). So that's appealing to me.
However....
I know that I personally can hit with accuracy more quickly (and more often due to the 30 round magazine) with the AR-type than I can with the lever gun.... and that's appealing to me too!

What to do... what to do...

I suspect that I know which way I'll eventually go, but if anybody out there has anything that they think I haven't considered I'd love to hear your thoughts.

Anyway, getting back to the original topic (lever vs AR), I'm not really sure which way I'd go.

Otto · Post by **Otto** » Thu Apr 02, 2009 9:09 pm

familyman357 wrote:Due to the ballistic hampering to the 5.56 NATO cartridge in this AR-type carbine as a result of the shortish barrel, I think of both of these carbines as good to a little over 100-some yards.

Really?

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Thu Apr 02, 2009 9:14 pm

My M4gery was amazingly, boringly, accurate.

A modern M4/AR with a Piston system is amazingly, boringly, accurate AND will not gum up at a critical moment.

All other things being equal, if I had to choose between the two rifles for a uniformed combat situation where resupply was not a real issue... I'd take the AR.

All things NOT being equal, where resupply is a problem and uniforms are variable... a .30-30 (or .357) has certain advantages. (see the article posted above...)

On the 5.56 I KNOW I'm combat-accurate out to 300m. on the .357 (I don't have a .30-30) i KNOW I'm combat accurate out to 200m

But on the whole, I'll tale a FN-FAL, Gallil, a BLR or other .308/7.62 NATO over either of them... I'm combat accurate there out to as far as I can distinguish a Human...

rangerider7 · Post by **rangerider7** » Thu Apr 02, 2009 9:20 pm

If all things are equal, a 30 round AR 15 is going to be my defence to the uprising. That is the reason I keep my Bushmaster predator. I do use it on coyotes once in a while, but it will be ready for two legged varmints too; as many that are involved the rebellion.

Lastmohecken · Post by **Lastmohecken** » Thu Apr 02, 2009 9:34 pm

Old Ironsights wrote: But on the whole, I'll tale a FN-FAL, Gallil, a BLR or other .308/7.62 NATO over either of them... I'm combat accurate there out to as far as I can distinguish a Human...

I too would choose a good proven FAL over just about anything else, But a well maintained and proven reliable AR-15 should not be understimated. And as far as leveractions go, my vote goes to an older all steel BLR in .308 win. But a good old pre-64 model 94 Winchester makes a pretty good social rifle.

What I will say is, in this current political climate, I wouldn't be selling any FALs or AR-15s, If you have one keep it, or trade up, and if you don't and think you might ever want one, this just might be your last chance to get one, but don't go selling many good leveractions to aquire one. A well rounded arsenal should have some of each.

familyman357 · Post by **familyman357** » Thu Apr 02, 2009 9:36 pm

Otto wrote:
familyman357 wrote:Due to the ballistic hampering to the 5.56 NATO cartridge in this AR-type carbine as a result of the shortish barrel, I think of both of these carbines as good to a little over 100-some yards.
Really?

I knew that would draw comment. Maybe I should have elaborated:

The ammunition I use with my 14.5" AR barrel is M193.
Because it's a FMJ, M193's terminal effectiveness is largely a result of its fragmenting in the body.
Velocity is the key to fragmentation.
It generally takes a velocity of about 2,700 fps for fragmentation to occur in a body.
Out of a 14.5" barrel, M193 will USUALLY drop below the 2,700 fps fragmentation threshold at AROUND 110 yards or so.

That's how I came to my opinion. Believe me, I am well aware that 5.56 is a flat shooter and that hits can be made far in excess of 110 yards. I used to regularly bang M855 into a human-sized target at 500 yards with an A2 on the KD range back in the day, but you can be sure that those bullets didn't have enough juice left to fragment out there.

Tycer · Post by **Tycer** » Thu Apr 02, 2009 9:57 pm

I put an XS big dot 24/7 on the front of one of my 357 Trappers with a single, verticle, white/glow-in-the-dark line cut in the front scope mount. Up close, say out to 50 yards, it's real fast. I have a Trijicon 1.5x scope for farther out. It's pretty fast too.

Jaguarundi · Post by **Jaguarundi** » Fri Apr 03, 2009 2:37 am

Matter of personal choice,confidence and practice.I'll go with the cowboy assault cartridge...

dbateman · Post by **dbateman** » Fri Apr 03, 2009 3:18 am

hunt the guy down with your 30-30 and take his AR

as long as its in effective rang of the 30-30 i dont really think the guy with AR has much
of an advantage...sept for mag capacity

Griff · Post by **Griff** » Fri Apr 03, 2009 7:30 am

No comment.
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Yeah! Right! I really want the .30-30. And for most incidents, it is adequate. It's what I grab at my farm when something goes "bump-in-the-night"! And, I carried one in my patrol car back in the early '90s, when I still worked patrol. It's still adequate, I'm not a spray n' pray type, I'm gonna take time and use my sights. It's been almost 40 years since I've used an autoloader on a regular basis, even my M-1 is just shot ocassionally... naw, I'll keep the levergun.

Streetstar · Post by **Streetstar** » Fri Apr 03, 2009 8:17 am

AR all the way in a bad times (stuff hitting the fan) situation.

I'd love to give the sentimental edge to the 30-30, but just thinking of mine -- it holds 6 rounds and is much slower to reload. You'd have to carry a big handful of loose rounds in a pocket, versus 2 or 3 magazines. Not to mention ammo being twice the size and weight. The AR is a 300 yard rifle in the hands of almost anyone. Its like arguing revolver vs. semi-auto.

The AR is going to really tick off an elk or moose if you need to bring something down for food though. I would just guess the 30-30 carries a lot more 100 yard energy for things like that

That said, any gun is better than no gun.

Bogie35 · Post by **Bogie35** » Fri Apr 03, 2009 8:30 am

Guys, I know the answer, and it has nothing to do with the gun or the cartridge.
John Wayne said it in "The Shootist".

IT'S THE MAN WHO'S MOST WILLING to squeeze the trigger!!!

bogie

Idahoser · Post by **Idahoser** » Fri Apr 03, 2009 10:28 am

Tennessee Hayre wrote:I always think of the Fist Full Of Dollars when this subject comes up...

do you remember how that turned out for the guy with the rifle?

Post by **Hobie** » Fri Apr 03, 2009 10:29 am

Jason_W wrote:Right now, I'd go with the 30-30. It's the cheapest centerfire ammo on the rack right now and since I'm untrained, if I can't do the job with a 6 shot Marlin, I'm screwed anyway. The Jason_W method of gunfighting doesn't require a lot of firepower: Hide until you have a good shot of their back

That is the smart way for anybody not being filmed by an MGM crew...

Modoc ED · Post by **Modoc ED** » Fri Apr 03, 2009 11:12 am

Something that has become apparent in this thread and others is that many people here at Lever Guns Community have some type of hostile, fire fight, experience -- i.e., military action, police action, etc.. BUT it is also apparent that many who talk about survival situations -- i.e., a group of people storming your house for whatever, and intruder in the night, a trespasser, etc. -- have absolutely no hostile, fire fight, experience.

My oh my -- should someone ever let loose with a firearm at those of you that do not have any hostile, fire fight, experience you are in for a BIG surprise. It is like nothing you have ever experienced or can imagine.

Having said all that, if and when I'm faced with a dangerous situation I will reach for the firearm that is closest at hand at the time. Plan as we might, sometimes, you just can't get to your go-to-gun so expand your horizons and practice with as many types of guns as you can for a day that you should hope never comes.

Griff · Post by **Griff** » Fri Apr 03, 2009 2:02 pm

Modoc ED wrote:Something that has become apparent in this thread and others is that many people here at Lever Guns Community have some type of hostile, fire fight, experience -- i.e., military action, police action, etc.. BUT it is also apparent that many who talk about survival situations -- i.e., a group of people storming your house for whatever, and intruder in the night, a trespasser, etc. -- have absolutely no hostile, fire fight, experience.
My oh my -- should someone ever let loose with a firearm at those of you that do not have any hostile, fire fight, experience you are in for a BIG surprise. It is like nothing you have ever experienced or can imagine.
Having said all that, if and when I'm faced with a dangerous situation I will reach for the firearm that is closest at hand at the time. Plan as we might, sometimes, you just can't get to your go-to-gun so expand your horizons and practice with as many types of guns as you can for a day that you should hope never comes.

I had to chuckle Ed... Part of my response is based on my experience w/a 7.62 hole in me and the less than enjoyable experience that was! Other things I recommend avoiding: twisty bits of 188mm shell casing and the inside of a ship's passageway; both which CAN draw blood; both of which left me out of commission for a greater length of time. But, they arre both rather awkward handling as either defensive or offensive weapons.

Modoc ED · Post by **Modoc ED** » Fri Apr 03, 2009 2:16 pm

I hear ya Griff. I was just pointing out that for some, it will be a whole new life experience when they are on the receiving end instead of the sending end of a firearm.

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Fri Apr 03, 2009 2:23 pm

Modoc ED wrote:I hear ya Griff. I was just pointing out that for some, it will be a whole new life experience when they are on the receiving end instead of the sending end of a firearm.

If I can at all help it, I will be doing my best to NOT recieve... regardless of what is being thrown im my direction...

jeepnik · Post by **jeepnik** » Fri Apr 03, 2009 3:15 pm

Lastmohecken wrote:
Old Ironsights wrote: But on the whole, I'll tale a FN-FAL, Gallil, a BLR or other .308/7.62 NATO over either of them... I'm combat accurate there out to as far as I can distinguish a Human...

I too would choose a good proven FAL over just about anything else, But a well maintained and proven reliable AR-15 should not be understimated. And as far as leveractions go, my vote goes to an older all steel BLR in .308 win. But a good old pre-64 model 94 Winchester makes a pretty good social rifle.

What I will say is, in this current political climate, I wouldn't be selling any FALs or AR-15s, If you have one keep it, or trade up, and if you don't and think you might ever want one, this just might be your last chance to get one, but don't go selling many good leveractions to aquire one. A well rounded arsenal should have some of each.

But the FAL is just so ugly.

Birdman · Post by **Birdman** » Fri Apr 03, 2009 3:23 pm

If I was in a "war zone" I suppose I would have to agree with the USOA military and go AR style. But for my own use, or even the socalled bad times deal I don't believe I'd be hurt'n too bad with a 30-30. Since I don't own a 30-30 I suppose I'll stick with my trusty 357 lever and revolver.

Andrew · Post by **Andrew** » Fri Apr 03, 2009 5:54 pm

I believe that, all things being equal, the AR would be my choice as well. Given that nothing is ever equall, I think that depending on the other guy I would need anywhere between an AR-10 along with some cleverly place explosives or just a sharp knife.

Bear 45/70 · Post by **Bear 45/70** » Fri Apr 03, 2009 6:17 pm

I'm way biased by personal experience with M-16 failure to function too many times. Haven't even picked one up since early 1967 and it took me until 1992 to even get a 223 caliber weapon. I just don't trust the plastic thing designed by a nobody (at the time) who made his bones the Ralph Nader way, with a lie. A battle rifle "first and foremost MUST function, always and ever regardless of conditions" and the M-16 and all it variants just does not meet that criteria. Hell Sec.of Defense McNamara forced it on the military after they did everything in the power to refuse it.

ByronG · Post by **ByronG** » Fri Apr 03, 2009 6:57 pm

I suspect, can't be sure of course, there are good reasons the military are not equipped with with lever action 30-30s

Otto · Post by **Otto** » Fri Apr 03, 2009 7:32 pm

Bear 45/70 wrote:I'm way biased by personal experience with M-16 failure to function too many times. Haven't even picked one up since early 1967 and it took me until 1992 to even get a 223 caliber weapon. I just don't trust the plastic thing designed by a nobody (at the time) who made his bones the Ralph Nader way, with a lie. A battle rifle "first and foremost MUST function, always and ever regardless of conditions" and the M-16 and all it variants just does not meet that criteria. Hell Sec.of Defense McNamara forced it on the military after they did everything in the power to refuse it.

The AR is completely reliable as long as it is kept properly lubed.Contrary to popular belief, it does not have to be kept surgically clean. One can dispute the effectiveness of the 22-caliber projectile in military rifles, but the reasons behind the initial reliability problems for the rifle itself are well-documented. It is worth noting that, while the Army was poo-pooing the M16, lots of HSLD-types were "acquiring" CAR's and other variants of the design. I also must point out that there were elements within the military establishment who embraced the AR.

I have an AK variant, which design is famous for its reliability, that absolutely will not fire more than three rounds without misfeeding. Clearly that disproves all the hype about how reliable AK's are.

What is the lie to which you refer?

familyman357 · Post by **familyman357** » Fri Apr 03, 2009 8:04 pm

jeepnik wrote: .
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But the FAL is just so ugly.

Blasphemy! lol

The FAL is a sleek piece of 1950's MBR sexy badness!

The FAL will always have a place in my heart because the first rifle I ever assembled was a FAL-type from a parts kit.
Unfortunately, the trigger mechanism doesn't lend itself to much improvement, the loosey-goosey relationship between the front and rear sights makes it tough to shoot it to its potential (the front sight is on the barrel and the rear sight is on the lower receiver), and there's no good way to scope it without making it noticeably topheavy. Anyway, some of us appreciate the FAL's Continental styling!

kimwcook · Post by **kimwcook** » Fri Apr 03, 2009 8:36 pm

Otto, I agree. The current crop of AR's as a whole, are a totally different critter than when they first came out. And, if memory serves me correctly the military changed the cartridge components against sound advice which caused the initial problems. There are many tests out there that prove they are a very reliable platform.

Post by **Old Savage** » Fri Apr 03, 2009 8:40 pm

I would take the 30-30.

Post by **Old Savage** » Fri Apr 03, 2009 8:43 pm

Byron, if Davy and the boys had had 94 30-30s at the Alamo, Santa Ana never would have taken them.

Bear 45/70 · Post by **Bear 45/70** » Fri Apr 03, 2009 8:45 pm

Otto wrote:
Bear 45/70 wrote:I'm way biased by personal experience with M-16 failure to function too many times. Haven't even picked one up since early 1967 and it took me until 1992 to even get a 223 caliber weapon. I just don't trust the plastic thing designed by a nobody (at the time) who made his bones the Ralph Nader way, with a lie. A battle rifle "first and foremost MUST function, always and ever regardless of conditions" and the M-16 and all it variants just does not meet that criteria. Hell Sec.of Defense McNamara forced it on the military after they did everything in the power to refuse it.
The AR is completely reliable as long as it is kept properly lubed.Contrary to popular belief, it does not have to be kept surgically clean. One can dispute the effectiveness of the 22-caliber projectile in military rifles, but the reasons behind the initial reliability problems for the rifle itself are well-documented. It is worth noting that, while the Army was poo-pooing the M16, lots of HSLD-types were "acquiring" CAR's and other variants of the design. I also must point out that there were elements within the military establishment who embraced the AR.

I have an AK variant, which design is famous for its reliability, that absolutely will not fire more than three rounds without misfeeding. Clearly that disproves all the hype about how reliable AK's are.

What is the lie to which you refer?

Yeah, try keeping the plastic thing clean after 3 to 5 days in the jungle. Once again "A battle rifle "first and foremost MUST function, always and ever regardless of conditions" and the M-16 and all it variants just does not meet that criteria." That includes not having to clean the thing every 4 hours. Three failures in 3 outings meant I wasn't trusting my life to the thing anymore. The rest of that tour and all thru the next that battlefield pickup AK functioned flawlessly, wait that's a lie, I had one malfunction, some clown didn't seat the mag properly once, but I beat his butt and it never happened again.

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Fri Apr 03, 2009 8:48 pm

kimwcook wrote:Otto, I agree. The current crop of AR's as a whole, are a totally different critter than when they first came out. And, if memory serves me correctly the military changed the cartridge components against sound advice which caused the initial problems. There are many tests out there that prove they are a very reliable platform.

ESPECIALLY with the new Piston Mods... For which the "4 hr cleaninfg cycle" becomes a moot and unnecessary point. (Gas Impingement sucks...)

Like I said... for Uniformed Combat with good resupply, I'll take an M-clone... but I'd prefer an MBR in .308.

As a non-uniformed Partisan/Civilian, I'm more than happy with my .357 Lever & Revolver. Either/both will get me an MBR about as soon as I want one.

Otto · Post by **Otto** » Fri Apr 03, 2009 9:14 pm

Bear 45/70 wrote:
Otto wrote: The AR is completely reliable as long as it is kept properly lubed.Contrary to popular belief, it does not have to be kept surgically clean. One can dispute the effectiveness of the 22-caliber projectile in military rifles, but the reasons behind the initial reliability problems for the rifle itself are well-documented. It is worth noting that, while the Army was poo-pooing the M16, lots of HSLD-types were "acquiring" CAR's and other variants of the design. I also must point out that there were elements within the military establishment who embraced the AR.

I have an AK variant, which design is famous for its reliability, that absolutely will not fire more than three rounds without misfeeding. Clearly that disproves all the hype about how reliable AK's are.

What is the lie to which you refer?

Yeah, try keeping the plastic thing clean after 3 to 5 days in the jungle. Once again "A battle rifle "first and foremost MUST function, always and ever regardless of conditions" and the M-16 and all it variants just does not meet that criteria." That includes not having to clean the thing every 4 hours. Three failures in 3 outings meant I wasn't trusting my life to the thing anymore. The rest of that tour and all thru the next that battlefield pickup AK functioned flawlessly, wait that's a lie, I had one malfunction, some clown didn't seat the mag properly once, but I beat his butt and it never happened again.

Cleaning every 4 hours?!

During what time frame did this take place, and what variation was this? As I said above, the causes of the early reliability issues are well-documented, and long-ago resolved.

I did two tours in Iraq, and while I disassembled my M16 daily, I rarely had to clean it unless I had fired it. As long as I kept a magazine in the well, and the dustcover closed, it stayed surprisingly free of foreign material.

The only reliabilty problems I experienced were early in the first tour, when all the Desert Storm vets warned me not to use ANY lube, or my rifle would become a giant glob of dust, sand and oil. I obeyed, and my rifle never cycled reliably. In fact I could not chamber a round using the charging handle at all.

Once I decided to ignore the "experts" and follow the -10, CTT manual, PS magazine and other documentation, and kept my rifle properly lubed, I never had any problems. And even though I oiled my M16 regularly, I never had a problem with dust or dirt accumulating.

By the way, the Army has all sorts of documentation showing that excessive cleaning does more damage than good, but the white-glove myth just won't die.

dbateman · Post by **dbateman** » Fri Apr 03, 2009 10:07 pm

ByronG wrote:I suspect, can't be sure of course, there are good reasons the military are not equipped with with lever action 30-30s

recoil shy girly men ?????

JReed · Post by **JReed** » Fri Apr 03, 2009 10:18 pm

dbateman wrote:
ByronG wrote:I suspect, can't be sure of course, there are good reasons the military are not equipped with with lever action 30-30s
recoil shy girly men ?????

Larger cap mag, ammo is lighter, rate of fire is faster, and it is difficult to throw a lever quickly when in the prone trying to stay behind a rock the size of your head when you are being shot at.