Questions on an 1886

[rjohns94]

lets say I had an 1886, ser# indicates it was made in 1887. under the forearm is the following markings : THERE IS A VP IN AN OVAL, 3 , G AND 40-65..

on the visible side of the barrel, its marked 45-70.

I'm thinking the rifle is a BP barreled, 40-65, that has been bored out to 45-70. It appears to have been at some time long ago (perhaps when the barrel was re-cut) refinished. The rifle shows no signs of pitting, the wood is original, all the hardware is there, and the screws are not buggered. The barrel is clean, no pitting, with nice lands and grooves, the crown is fine. Sights are original. It is not a takedown. The rifle has a nice aged look, but one that has aged in someones home, not taken out much except to harvest a deer a two each year. It is well aged, and some marks on the wood, but no cracks, no shrinkage.

I read in my speer reloading manual that modern loads for leverguns are fine in the rifle of this age if the rifle is in good working order, that i don't have to worry about BP only loads. Your thoughts on this?

I really would like an original 86. Should I have concerns over the recutting of the barrel, the BP barrel itself, and the possible refinish (i really cant tell that it has been, just looks too nicely aged to have not been)?? If this rifle has a $2600 tag on it, is that too much? How about for $1800?


thanks

Sorry, no pictures at this time.

[Gun Smith]

You need to look at pictures of similar conditioned guns in Gunbroker for the approx. value of that one. $2000.00 might be a fairer price. Any M.1886 that is in decent condition is strong enough for most 45/70 loadings. There might be some "magnum" loads out there that might be better bypassed though. The "VP" is the Winchester definitive proof mark. The 40/65 is probably the original caliber of the barrel. When a cartridge like the 40/65 cartridge became obsolete it was the practice to rebore to an existing cartridge caliber that would function in the original gun. It will have little or no collector value as rebored or refinished , but will make a great hunter/shooter. I don't shoot any BP in my 86's.

[Mike D.]

Gun Smith answered your questions correctly. The '86 in question has been rebored, but not by Winchester. They would have rebarreled the gun to .45-70, not bored it out. In my opinion, a gun like that has no collector value, and as such should not be priced anywhere near 2Gs. Most Winchesters on internet sites are grossly overpriced, as evidenced by them being repeatedly "offered" with no bids. Any gun that has a reasonable "reserve" is usually snapped up quickly. Occasionally, there are some nice guns to be had, but not often enough.

[longarm4146]

I'm with Mike D on this one, I'd also check the distance the dovetails for sights and mag tube hangerare set back from muzzle to see if the barrel is an original lenght or has been cut down...the muzzle should be cut straight with no bevel on crown on those (at least i'm pretty sure of that). Around here if your'e buying it strictly as a shooter I'd guess 1300-1700 be a gracious plenty, depending on overall conditions of rest of gun.....This gun if a first year would have been color cased as well, unless ordered otherwise.

[Sixgun]

Gunsmith, Mike D. and Longarm have pegged it out right and saved me a mess of time typing.

The only thing I can add is how much of the original finish is remaining? barrel and mag blue? colors on the receiver, buttplate and forearm cap? wood to metal fit? sights?

Case colors are very important on an 1886 as they wore off rather easily. If that gun of yours had a messload of original colors on it, its worth a whole lot more than 2 g's. If its "nickeled out" but clean, with no pitting, with good wood to metal fit, original sights, correct lettering and dovetail spacing, its still worth 15-20 c-notes.

VP stands for view proofed--each barrel was actually looked through by the master barrel straightener, as things were done in the day.

Remember Mike, if the gun is real nice, there are replacement barrels out there--tough find but they are there. Besides, in this day and age, there are not many 1886's of any kind floating around for sale that have not been messed with in one way or another. Its no big deal having a rebored gun as long as the rest of it has not been buffed from here to China. Only 160K were made and how many do you think survived?

Looks like I typed a mess anyway ------Sixgun

[Mike D.]

It is my estimation that out of approximately 160,000 1886s manufactured, probably somewhere in the neighborhood of 130,000 of them have survived. Let us not forget that many thousands of them went to Europe, Asia, and the Lower Americas, where a goodly number still remain. There are also untold numbers sitting in closets all over this country, the majority of which have not seen the light of day for years. I have made a few purchases of such in the past few years. It's scary to think what may sit in a home within a few miles of each of our residences. The '86 was a massive piece of nearly indestructable machinery. Many of the altered guns never should have been, either, but the thoughts of potential collectibility did not enter into a hunter's mind 70 yrs ago. These guns were available on the used market for around 5 bucks, and didn't begin to rise until the late 1960s. At that time a nice one could be had for $50-75, especially the .33 WCFs. I paid 40 dollars for my first '86, a 22" barreled .40-82.

[Sixgun]

I paid 40 dollars for my first '86, a 22" barreled .40-82.

Mike, When was that, in 1926? Ah come on, its a joke! I paid $400 for my first one, a 26" barreled 45-90 in 1974. It was about 3 weeks pay but the rifle was a nice one. Like I said, "was". Its the one that I blew up. --------Sixgun

[Mike D.]

1926??! My dad was only 7 yrs old. Nah, I bought that $40 '86 in 1964(?) from a local shop called "Western Guncraft". He always had interesting guns in there. In fact, he had a late '86 that he bored to .450 AK, if my memory serves me correctly. He was an excellent gunsmith and repaired my .45-70 carbine when the loading gate kept popping open. He loaded ammo for us kids, too. I still have a couple of his yellow Winchester boxes with pencil notations of the loadings on them.

There was a small gunshow at a local high school back in the late '60s and early '70s where you could buy any 1886 for a lot less than $400. Like I said, a nearly perfect .33 was $125 at the last show held there. Can you imagine, a gunshow at a CA high school? That'll never happen again.

[Sixgun]

Mike D,
(here we go getting sidetracked again )
That was interesting--a gunshow at a high school--and Kaliforn-i-a at that!
As a young man, I remember the days when a gunsmith/gun dealer (or car mechanic) would take the time to do things that little money was made on. Nowadays, they want to be "parts changers" and make a million dollars doing it.

Mike J.--you might as well snag that '86 as the idea of "parts changer" rang up an interesting thought in my little brain. Geeze, just the lower tang of an '86 will bring $400.-------Sixgun

[rjohns94]

I went back to look at it again. Tried to talk myself out of it. Didn't do it. It's now mine. I would rather pay what I paid (less than what he was asking) for recut barrel (hexagon), and what I will call a browing instead of rebluing, all on an original recvr, and wood and sights, than pay the same price for a new Winchester. I am very pleased and will post some pics and a range report soon. I traded into this gun and got the price down to a fair price for both of us.

[Blaine]

I'm happy for ya.......