OT: 303 British Question

[86er]

Why do all the factory cartridges feature a round shoulder but: a) it fire forms to a tapered shoulder, and b) reloading dies size them with the tapered shoulder instead of making them round again? They chamber, fire and eject without any issues either way.

[J Miller]

Why do all the factory cartridges feature a round shoulder but: a) it fire forms to a tapered shoulder, and b) reloading dies size them with the tapered shoulder instead of making them round again? They chamber, fire and eject without any issues either way.

Joe,

Every Enfield .303 Brit I've ever owned or fired, and every fired case I've ever picked up had the rounded shoulder. If your .303 produces tapered shoulders it's the only one I've ever heard of.

My RCBS dies push the shoulder back too far and turn it into something that looks kinda like a 30-30 shoulder. Basically over sizing the shoulders.

I can only surmise that who ever gave SAAMI the specs wrote 'em up that way.
A couple years ago I found a set of dies that sizes the cases correctly. It's a very tight set of dies so that may not help much. They are marked "Luger American". I've never heard of them. Did a Google search and came up with zip.

What I do with my RCBS dies is turn them in just till the die touches the shoulder. This full sizes most of the case body and neck but doesn't push the shoulder back. It does help with case life quite a bit.

Joe

[O.S.O.K.]

This is the way that the factory insures that the rounds will fit and chamber correctly in the miriad of miliatry SMLE's that are out there. After firing - wether handloads or factory, I then neck size only and keep the rounds specific to the rifle - but they will often fit other rifles fine too, but for best accuracy I keep em matched to the rifle.

I've also found that my .314" Lyman 200 grian gas checked bullets cast with linotype and lubed with Lee Liquid Alox are the accuracy champs in my SMLE's - loaded to about 2000 fps. No leading either.

[Charles]

My 1944 Longbranch does the same thing as yours. The fired case looks like an "Ackley Improved" version of what went into the chamber. The SMLE was issued in hudge quanities to native troops around the world in the days of "Empire" and basic rifle care was often not up to British standards. The rifles had such a generous chamber so they could fire when the rifle as neglected.

As the .303 round headspaces on the rim this didn't prove to be a problem. However when we reload, it doesn't take long for the case to seperate when we shove that shoulder back during full length resizing. The remedy is to neck size only and when so done, case life is extended greatly.

They are grand old rifles and loads of fun to shoot. Enjoy yours and stay safe.

[Nath]

I allways wondered why it was not a popular hunting round. I allways fancied one in a sporter.
(Sorry 86er I'll go now )

Nath.

[O.S.O.K.]

Nath, I think it's one of the most popular hunting rounds in the world isn't it? A by-product of the once expansive British Empire.

Definatly hisorically a popular cartridge/gun combo in Canada and pretty popular here in the USA too.

In my opinion, a guy could do quite nicely with just an SMLE for hunting big game. With bullets running from 125 to 215 grains, you've got a good selection. If you want more penetration, go to a hardcast 200 grain solid. The rifle's with micrometer rear sights can adjust to most trajectories.

They aren't hard to scope if you want that. Plenty of mounts available. A bit heavy though with a scope.

[Nath]

You never hear of one being used over here, shame I think.

Nath.

[Old Savage]

8mm Mauser is similar I believe.

[RKrodle]

http://carteach0.blogspot.com/2007/07/3 ... after.html

[deerwhacker444]

I have a 303 that my uncle gave me that does that very same thing. Compare factory to once fired..



The story is he gave a wino $5 for it outside a liquor store. I always thought that maybe it had been rechambered to one of those "Canadian" improved 303 chamberings. If I recall, there's a bunch of em. But maybe, it's just a sloppy job from the factory.

[Hobie]

The Brits intended this rifle/cartridge combo to function under all conditions and it will. Partial full-length resize as noted above and drive on. I love these guns and this cartridge.

[J Miller]

I have a 303 that my uncle gave me that does that very same thing. Compare factory to once fired..



The story is he gave a wino $5 for it outside a liquor store. I always thought that maybe it had been rechambered to one of those "Canadian" improved 303 chamberings. If I recall, there's a bunch of em. But maybe, it's just a sloppy job from the factory.

That is exactly what every .303 fired case I've had looks like, and the full sized case with the bullet in it is exactly what my RCBS dies make. Load them like this and you might, maybe get 3 loads out of them. The working of that shoulder and body plays hob with case life.

I wonder if I have any fired .303 cases left?

Joe

[Jacko]

Have a look through this link http://303british.com/, have not looked through for your answer but an interesting read anyhow

I have a 1942 Lithgow SMLE no 3* , wonderfully slick bolt action . I have never seen my fired cases look anything like those described or pictured . I know the SMLE has varied and generous chamber dimentions to cope with battlefield crud . The shoulders on my cases are not appreciably differant after firing .

The .303 is still a popular choice now days and will handle everything in this country arguably not adequite for Asiatic water buffalo but 10's of thousands have been killed with them . My rifle has matching numbers full wood in as issued condition and weighs a ton - will never part with it . I did remove and cotton wool the original stock and replaced it with another stock I stained to match and fitted a vented recoil pad . Got me buggered how the diggers put up with that brass butt plate . Guess I'm just soft .

regards Jacko

[morgan in nm]

I have one that makes the cases crisply stepped. I will look for some fired and post a picture. Makes it difficult to reload.

[mescalero1]

looks like I need to check out my newly aquired enfield

[J Miller]

Alrighty, I did have some .303 Brit cases fired from my 1943 vintage Canadian Longbranch No4 Mk1*:

Here is two fired cases flanked on the L by a PP 60 VIII military ball round, and on the R by an old Winchester 180gr PP round.

As you can see the shoulders on the fired rounds are smaller and more rounded than angled or tapered. Nothing like the full length sized cartridge in deerwhacker444's picture.

Regardless of why the various factories made the various chambers the way they did, it's my long held opinion that SAAMI speck full length sizing dies are made with the wrong shoulder, and contribute to the short life of the cases.

Joe

[mescalero1]

Joe,
Your two fired cases also exhibit a distinct " ring " around and above the base, have you measured a before and after case?

[J Miller]

Joe,
Your two fired cases also exhibit a distinct " ring " around and above the base, have you measured a before and after case?

Mescalero1,

That is just case expansion due to the large chamber. These are 2 X fired cases with a normal pressure load.

Have I measured them, no. Every round fired from this rifle; mil surp, commercial, or hand load does the same thing.

Joe

[mescalero1]

Nothing to get excited about, pictures, transfered to computers; sometimes make things look different from what they really are.

[J Miller]

Nothing to get excited about, pictures, transfered to computers; sometimes make things look different from what they really are.

This is true. I also noticed some years ago that there is some scratches at the rear of the chamber that show up on certain cases. I "think" it's because of head separations and the shooter digging the case body out with a spike bayonet.
I think those might be some of the marks visible.

Joe

[mescalero1]

Well, those guns fought; and not under the best of conditions.

[Old Savage]

They are still in service in Mubai.

[mescalero1]

And other places

[Nath]

Just remembered how a guy at a range I was next to had a case head seperation in 303, I'm starting to understand why now.
Seems you have to match the brass to your chamber and not the full resize, learn something every day.
I wonder if thats why it was not popular over here in sporters, a far to technicle approach needed for most Brit hunters maybe!

Nath.

[mescalero1]

In all fairness to the Engish, that is probably due to a lack of exposure to reloading problems.

[CaptainFinn]

My Lithgow 41 SMLE is a tack-driver, but exhibits the same case expansion. Enfields indeed have generous chambers. And I mean 'generous'. Whenever someone at the range was shooting a .303 I would hit them up for their empties. I've collected about 500 once-fired Remington green-box cases, and virtually every one of them shows the 'moved forward' shoulder--and quite a few had primers backed out as well.

I bought the Lee pacesetter dies as well as a neck-sizing die, and it definately helps with sizing once-fired cases (or twice fired, in my case) so they are sized specifically for my rifle.

With a decent load of 4350 and a 174-gr bullet I can a five shot group inside of 2" at one hundred meters, which, given the sights, is all I can expect of this gun.

[J Miller]

CaptainFinn,

We do the same thing. Beg, scrounge, mooch all the brass we can. I spent several hours following a trail of once fired R-P cases in AZ one afternoon. I got almost three boxes of cases.
At the range, or out in the desert I'll grab any I can.

Processing them is a pain though. First you gotta clean 'em up to make sure there is no signs of head separation. Then I always try them in my chamber first just to see. If they fit I don't have to size them as much. Then I partially size them, just to where the sizing die touches but does not move the shoulder. That has worked for me pretty good.

As for accuracy, I'm not sure what mine will do. I haven't had it to the range in many years.

Joe

[morgan in nm]

I have one that makes the cases crisply stepped. I will look for some fired and post a picture. Makes it difficult to reload.

I couldn't find any fired brass from that one. Anyways, on that particular rifle, I use surplus. I still think they are a fine bolt-gun. I knew a man by the name of Leanard Bull from Colorado who could shoot one of them faster and more accurately than I could any semi-auto. Of course, working for Holland and Holland for many years, he was quite experienced with them.

[O.S.O.K.]

Several of my SMLE's will print 2" or better groups with my 200 grain cast bullet handloads. I think its the .314" diameter and long bore rider configuration of the bullet that does it. This is the Lyman #314299 mould - 200 grain, round nosed gas checked .314" bullet. I size mine in a Lee sizer die and lube with Lee Liquid Alox. I use Hornady or Lyman gas checks. I load them to 2000 fps +/-. The cases are neck sized only and give good life with this load and technique. Cast with wheel weights (air cooled) , the nose will deform and mushroom on game - some. Linotype won't.



This bullet out performs all of my other jacketed bullet loads in the accuracy department - by about 1/2 to 1" at 100 yards.

[Stan in SC]

I have been a staunch fan of the .303British for several years now.One on my regular hunting rifles is a customed No.4 done by Santa Fe division of Golden State Arms.The only thing left of the original rifle is the action.It has a heavier barrel,a walnut stock and commercial Williams iron sights.It is drilled and tapped for a side mount Weaver scope mount and I scoped it with a vintage Weaver El Paso made 1.5X4.5X20 scope.I hunt regularly with it using my handloads.
A .303 will do almost anything that a .308Win will do if loaded correctly.

Stan