Naming the 38WCF

[Gobblerforge]

I'm trying to get some information on why, when Winchester came out with the 38 WCF, it was not called the 40WCF since it is .401 caliber. Anyone have any info on this? It has been discussed elsewhere but not answered. I personally have heard several theories. What's yours.
Gobbler

[20cows]

Could it be, like a few others, that it got it's name from the lans diameter (the drill size) and not the groove diameter? Since shooters are mindful of the groove diamter to match bullets, we often forget the pre rifled bore size.

[Hobie]

Marketing differentiation.

[w30wcf]

Gobblerforge,
Probably the same reason that the .44 W.C.F. is not .44, but less than a .43. As Hobie indicated, marketing differentiation.
20cows has a good point. Bore diameter would have been close to .39, but apparently .38 sounded better. Also, the .38 was a caliber that hunters / shooters could identify with since the .38-50 had been around for several years when Winchester brought out the .38 W.C.F. in 1879.

One other thought. Marlin/UMC came out with the .44-40 designation for the .44 W.C.F. WInchester then thought that Marlin/UMC would name their cartridge the .40-40 if Win. named it the .40 W.C.F. which sounded too close to the .44-40, so they decided to call it the .38 W.C.F.

Food for thought anyway.

w30wcf

[KCSO]

If you hit the cast boolits forum they just went all through this. If you start back in the 1860's you find that they used bore rather than groove diameter for thier guns Hence a 36 and 44 revolver with groove of 380 and 451 and bore closer to the 36 and 44. Then shortly after the Civil War (War of Northern Agression) they started using groove diameter for some and bore for others with no appparant rhyme or reason. By the time Marlin came along they had no taste for calling anything WCF and so then it was 38-40 ect. Then you get to powder capacity which in a lot of cartridges was not the stated 40 grains as they loaded for velocity not powder measure. By actual measurment I have found that the 45 Colt could have either 28 or from 36 to 38 grinas of FFg/FFFg black ppoowder. A 38-40 38WCF usually had about 36 grains same for a 44 WCF and a 45-70 could run from 66 to 71 grains depending on lot and year of manufacture.

[Doc Hudson]

I don't know the whys or wherefore's of the name, all I can do is chuckle and tease fans of the .40 Short & Weak that their pet cartridge is actually a .38-40 ACP.

If you miss the joke, compare the ballistics of the .38-40 WCF and the .40 S&W.

[KCSO]

Not only that but I use the same mould to cast bullets for each! The 38-40 180 RNFP is perfect for the Short and Weak.

[marlinman93]

I've wondered the same and after some thought I suspected (in my feeble mind) that the .44-40 was around, and they wanted something that would not be confused with it, and also be a little smaller. If they had used it's true designation the .40-40 and .44-40 might sound too similar and one of them might have gone by the wayside.
Remember we didn't have all the other .38's around then, so this was a pretty powerful "38" when it came out.

[w30wcf]

Regarding the powder capacity, my experience is a bit different than KCSO's. I have dissected W.R.A. CO. .44 W.C.F. headstamped cartridges that contained a full 40 gr. by weight b.p. charge. The U.M.C. .45 Colt cartridges that I have dissected had powder charges as high as 41.5 grs. by weight. WInchester did not load the .45 Colt with 40 gr. charges. THey chose 38 grs. as their load.

w30wcf

[Old Time Hunter]

Wonder if the reason was, was because the first 38-40's had paper wrapped bullets????

[w30wcf]

Old Time Hunter,
The 1879 Winchester catalog shows the cartridge illustration to be a plain lead bullet, 160 grs. in weight, and 40 grs. b.p.
The bullet weight was increased to 180 grs. in the 1880's and, for whatever the reason the powder charge was reduce to 38 grs. in the 1890's. The .38-40 cartridge, on the other hand, was always loaded with 40 grs. b.p. according to their catalogs.

w30wcf

[Gobblerforge]

W30WCF. Is it possable to post some pictures of what you have? This is some of the exact info I am looking for. Do you have Winchester catalogs that actually call the round 38-40 as oppoed to 38WCF?
Gobbler

[Leverdude]

We still do it, why is a 38 a .358?

[w30wcf]

Gobblerforge,
I have a reprint of their 1896 catalog which shows both the .38 W.C.F. (180 gr. / 38 grs. b.p.) and the .38-40 Marlin Safety(180 gr. / 40 grs. b.p.) The 1893 catalog only shows the .38 W.C.F. Apparently sometime between 1894 and 1896, Winchester decided to offer the .38-40 loading as well. If you pm your address I will make copies and mail them to you.

Leverdude,
Good point. For the .38 Special they used the o.d. of the case.

w30wcf

[Leverdude]

Gobblerforge,
I have a reprint of their 1896 catalog which shows both the .38 W.C.F. (180 gr. / 38 grs. b.p.) and the .38-40 Marlin Safety(180 gr. / 40 grs. b.p.) The 1893 catalog only shows the .38 W.C.F. Apparently sometime between 1894 and 1896, Winchester decided to offer the .38-40 loading as well. If you pm your address I will make copies and mail them to you.

Leverdude,
Good point. For the .38 Special they used the o.d. of the case.

w30wcf

Cool thanks, I just learned something.

On another note my 36 cal cap & ball 1851 navy uses .380 balls.

[Gobblerforge]

Are there any other collectors of catalogs that can post pictures of catalogs showing 38WCF ammunition or firarms?
Gobbler

[Gobblerforge]

Here's more. John Kort, aka W30WCF, sent me some copies of a few Winchester catalogs. Wonderful reading. Thanks John.
In the 1879 catalog it states in reference to the 1873 rifle that it was being offered to "..meet the demand of our many correspondents for a small bore repeater, suitable for small game." 40 grains of powder under 160 grains of lead. It also states that it is a convenient rifle for "Glass Ball Shooters". What is that? Then in 1896 they state that it has 38 grains of powder and 180 grains of lead.Then in Marlin"s 1905 catalog gives all kinds of information on this round. Including differences between the 38-40 and the 38WCF, as well as the differences between the 44-40 and the 44WCF.

Gobbler