OT-reduced recoil .270 for deer: What do you think

[Jason_W]

My wife to be is hunting her first season with her savage model 14 in .270. She was fine with factory reduced recoil loads ($30 a box ) but standard level 130 loads are hurting her a bit, giving her a visible flinch. I'm of the opinion that with newer shooters and hunters, it's no good to be in pain. Shooting should be fun, and if it hurts, it stops being fun.

I found a recipe on the Hodgdon site for a 110 sierra at about 2600 fps, but I'm concerned that the stout, light bullets may not offer enough penetration on a large whitetail (than can run big in this part of Vermont).

Opinions?

[Chuck 100 yd]

I would stick with the 130 or 140 gr bullet and just drop the velocity back a couple hundred fps. The recoil will be much less and the killing power much the same out to 200yd. or so.

[mescalero1]

Jason W,
Because this is your wife, and this subject is sensitive to some men, have you paid attention to the special needs of women shooters?

[dr walker]

If you are concerned about penetration or lack of, just have her limit her shots to broadside.

[Jarhead]

If I were setting up a rifle for my wife or daughters primarily for deer, I'd probably buy her a .257 Roberts or perhaps a .243.
The .270 is a mighty fine caliber (30-06 necked down to .270) so it kicks a bit for a Lady.

[86er]

Jason:

I played with a wide variety of reduced charge/load ammuniton to reduce recoil for women, kids and other sensitive shooters. What I have found time and time again with various calibers is that very light for caliber bullets at high velocity don't offer reliable, repeatable penetration and bullet integrity. Admittedly I have not used the 270, but 30-30 through 7mm Mag and even 338 have been "reduced" unsuccessfully. Fortunately I have ample opportunity to shoot various animals in somewhat controlled conditions. What I finally concluded after many attempts is to find a soft, rapid expanding bullet in the heavy for caliber weight range and reduce the velocity. This has been said in a previous post and will probably be repeated. I am being more detailed because I have been there done that and I want you to achieve a level of confidence in making your decision. One thing that seem to work well is to choose a round nose bullet with a lot of lead exposed. Generally, the Core-Lokt and Power Point bullets, Speer Hot Core and Sierra flat base are good choices. Overall, the average reduction in velocity that still yielded favorable results was 400 fps. Examples: we tried the 110 grain 308 Win at 2200-2800 fps. I shot a bunch of axis deer and blackbuck. The results were inconsistent and unfavorable for good penetration and one shot anchors. We then tried flat point 150's at 2100 fps and the recoil was noticably less and the penetration was good with expansion. The 170's at 2200 were okay but expansion was minimal. The same project with 30-30 proved the 110's failed to penetrate adequately on deer sized game. The 170's reduced to 1800 fps have low recoil with excellent penetration and some expansion. One more: 7mm Rem Mag 120's at 3100 fps kicked a bit but did not penetrate on any bone with the cup and core bullets. The same style bullets in a round nose 175 grain at only 2250 had much less recoil than standard loads but penetrated very well and expanded pretty good. The expansion is probably 1/3 to 1/2 of what it would be at the higher velocity but it was enough to cause serious damage and ocassionally a big exit hole. The morale of the story is that you need to experiment some with 150 or 160 grain bullets that are running 2300 fps. If you find favorable attributes with those specs, you can then try bumping the velocity 100 fps or either raising or lowering the bullet weight 10-15 grains at a time to achieve the perfect balance of terminal ballistic performance and recoil. The biggest problem with reduced loads is that it limits your range by performance capability and trajectory. You will have to adjust your expectations of these loads accordingly. Within those parameters, shot placement is going to make all the difference in the world. Good luck!

[gundownunder]

Would you need the power and range of a .270 in Vermont, or would a lighter kicking rifle like a .243 or 30-30 be a better option for a ladies gun.

[O.S.O.K.]

I also recommend a heavier bullet (130 or 140) of standard construction loaded to 2500 fps or so. Low recoil and plenty of penetration and power for whitetail.

Truth be told, the .270 Win is much more than is needed for most whitetail. Ditto for the 30-06.

[Hobie]

My wife to be is hunting her first season with her savage model 14 in .270. She was fine with factory reduced recoil loads ($30 a box ) but standard level 130 loads are hurting her a bit, giving her a visible flinch. I'm of the opinion that with newer shooters and hunters, it's no good to be in pain. Shooting should be fun, and if it hurts, it stops being fun.

I found a recipe on the Hodgdon site for a 110 sierra at about 2600 fps, but I'm concerned that the stout, light bullets may not offer enough penetration on a large whitetail (than can run big in this part of Vermont).

Opinions?

I think she just needs to get closer...

[mescalero1]

Jarhead,
I shoot a .257 Roberts, and you are right it will do for the girls just right.
With your permission , of course!

[Jason_W]

The .270 is way more than needed in VT. She really liked the rifle, so I didn't try to dissuade her. I did explain to her that if it turns out that it's really not working out, there's no shame in trading it for something different. You really can't get to know a gun in the shop. There's not enough time for a trade before deer season, though.

If I could design guns and manufacture guns, things would be a lot different. I'm not sure that high pressure super velocity rounds are the way to go for beginners. Even The lighter ones have a nasty bark to them. It's why I prefer rounds like the .35 Rem and pistol cartridge carbines. I just find them more pleasant.

[AJMD429]

I agree with the 'no pain' stuff for new shooters. Nothing like a couple bricks of .22LR to get used to the general noise and bang, and gradually stepping up to bigger stuff. Some make the transition fast - I've seen stout men who grinned like kids in a candy store firing .44 Mag handguns and .45-70 rifles less than an hour after their first range time with a .22LR rifle. I've seen others where it takes a couple of years to get that 'immune' to noise and recoil, and likely some never fully 'appreciate' the joys of noise and recoil, especially if they are petite, or more into the challenge of hunting or precision shooting than conquering higher levels of power and blast.

I'd say if she really likes the gun, season is near, and she's already good with that gun and light loads, I'd use the light loads, even if you have to buy them for now - remember lots of deer have been killed quite dead with .32-20's, .223's, and even .22 LR's - because they were hit where the shooter aimed, and the shooter knew what part to aim for with those particular rounds. I'd not want to hunt with THOSE three rounds, but I'd have a hard time thinking any 120 grain (or larger) slug going 2,000 fps (or more) would be anything but deadly through the thorax, especially if through the heart. Get the 'right' bullet construction, but if it makes a hole it really should do the job. I'd not hunt the last 30 minutes of season in rough country, just in case it goes a hundred yards, but I'll bet it won't, if she's a good shot and hits where she needs to.

If she isn't that emotionally attached to that particular gun, and if there is time before season starts, I'd look at something with less recoil, and maybe part of that would be a heavier and longer barrel, even a muzzle brake (but noise is also intimidating to new shooters - on that 'aside' I'd recommend Pro-ears or some similar electronic muff so she can hear in the woods but gets noise protection). If she isn't opposed to one of the little Handi-rifles, and there is enough time for sight-in and practice before season, you could get one very inexpensively in .243, or in .357 Magnum (use 180 grain factory loads from Speer, for instance), or .44 Magnum (240gr JSP flattens deer, and I'll bet the 180gr would too, with even less recoil). I'd think .243 would kill out to a farther range, but if you're at 100 yards the .44 Magnum will drop whitetails nicely, (probably to 150 yards, I'll bet).

[Jarhead]

Jarhead,
I shoot a .257 Roberts, and you are right it will do for the girls just right.
With your permission , of course!

Permission granted Bro...I hunted with a fella in Alaska who hunted with a really nice Pre 64 .257 Roberts and I got to shoot it! Sweet I really liked it. We used it on Caribou in the winter. -30 to -40 degrees I have a BLR in .308 and .243, so never picked up a .257 Roberts. Never picked up a .270 either, for I have a 1956 Vintage Model 70 30-06. But I do like the .270...a mighty fine caliber...well balanced too. A lot of fellas hunt Elk with them.

[mescalero1]

In that class of gun, I shoot a lot of glass; so you are going to want to re-glass it to something lower powered.
5 years of shooting big glass in a tunnel, you get used to more magnification than the average shooter.

[Jason_W]

If she isn't that emotionally attached to that particular gun, and if there is time before season starts, I'd look at something with less recoil, and maybe part of that would be a heavier and longer barrel, even a muzzle brake (but noise is also intimidating to new shooters - on that 'aside' I'd recommend Pro-ears or some similar electronic muff so she can hear in the woods but gets noise protection). If she isn't opposed to one of the little Handi-rifles, and there is enough time for sight-in and practice before season, you could get one very inexpensively in .243, or in .357 Magnum (use 180 grain factory loads from Speer, for instance), or .44 Magnum (240gr JSP flattens deer, and I'll bet the 180gr would too, with even less recoil). I'd think .243 would kill out to a farther range, but if you're at 100 yards the .44 Magnum will drop whitetails nicely, (probably to 150 yards, I'll bet).

She really likes bolt actions. I might try to get her to give a TC Encore a try, but once she's adamant about something, you may as well forget about talking her out of it

It's too bad Savage doesn't still make their 30-30 bolt rifles and you have to hunt around to find a used one in good condition. I think the 30-30 is the ultimate beginner round, but I'm finding (shocking though it may be) not everyone is into leverguns. Go figure.

[Jarhead]

I find that reciever sights/open sights don't work as well (old age) as they used too...but I still use them. Glass..are you talking scopes? Don't want to steal this fella's thread, so PM might be in order Bro...

[mescalero1]

Yes, sorry; I get ahead of myself sometimes.
That .257 wears an 8x fixed scope.

[m.wun]

I hunt in Ca. with a 7 mm mag for deer and its way more than I need.My standard load was Win. PP 150gr. @
3100fps. I just started shooting rem reduced loads and love em.140gr. @ 2700fps coreloks.The recoil is
down and still plenty of power for these 120lb deer out here.I found them at Bass Pro on sale for 20$ a
box so I bought several,my standard shells were 23-25 $ a box.

[AJMD429]

She really likes bolt actions. I might try to get her to give a TC Encore a try, but once she's adamant about something, you may as well forget about talking her out of it

I think it goes with the gender...

However, Encore's are really nice, and if this can serve as an excuse to GET one, you may be able to use this to your advantage... They do run about five times the cost of the Handi-rifles though, unless you already have the receiver and just need a barrel. Lots of nice chamberings here - http://www.eabco.com/.

[Glenn]

Jason,
I bought a .270 for my daughter to hunt with. For practice I loaded 110 gr. varmint bullets to 2850 fps, nice low recoil. For hunting, I loaded 120 gr. Barnes-X bullets to 2750 fps. I was going to use a 110 gr. X-bullet but couldn't find any. ALL the .270 X-bullets are built for big game, so even the 110 gr. will hold together and penetrate just fine. Remember, those 130 gr. soft-point bullets only weigh about 100 grs. after thay expand and blow some lead off. The X-bullets do not lose any weight.
The 120 gr. bullet at 2750 is essentiually a .257 Roberts load. She took a large whitetail doe and an average antelope doe with that load, both one-shot kills.
Glenn

[El Chivo]

Well it's different when shooting at game, I bet she wouldn't notice the full power load if she gets a shot at a live animal.

[deerwhacker444]

The reduced recoil Remington ammo has proven to be the most accurate we've tried out of my uncles Ruger Mark II .270. At 100 yards it will produce a clover leaf 3 shot group out of his rifle. He has killed 2 deer with that ammo. I would classify its recoil in the .243 class. He is known to get very excited when shooting at deer and therefore doesn't always make the best shot. Neither deer he's shot with the reduced ammo has produced a large blood trail. In fact, one was almost nonexistent. However, both deer were found stone dead, so I guess the bullets did their job.

I've loaded up some of the 110gr TSX's @ 3000fps but have yet to try them on game. They don't kick bad and group nicely and I believe they would hold together on deer sized game. I think the Remington stuff is quoted at 2600fps @ 115 gr.

[Nath]

I know a feller whome does not like the recoil of his 308 and was wondering of a lighter bullet. Knowing he uses it on large red deer my advice was to stick a 200grnr in it. It would reduce the case cap and by using a slow powder it would of been nice.
Alot of folk don't use ears when shooting, makes hell of a difference.

Nath.

[preventec47]

Barnes is the only bullet mfg that makes super light weight bullets that are
also very tough. All the others lightweight bullets are explosive varmint bullets.

Remember bullet weight has much more to do with recoil than velocity.

Go ahead and take the Barnes bullet at I think 110 gr or maybe 100 gr
and down load to the velocity of the similar bullet in a .243 and the
gun will become a 243 from a recoil and terminal performance standpoint.

[tman]

A .243 WCF CHAMBERED IN A savage 99a or a blr would be a lighter shorter gun. it my be easier for a smaller person to hunt and shoot accurately, offhand, in the field. 243's have taken moose and elk, so it's definetly enough gun for northern whitetail. just my 2 cents worth.

[marlinman93]

I'll be the desenter here Jason. The 110 gr. loads will be more than enough on any deer, regardless of whther they are the big NE whitetails, or something smaller. I've taken a lot of deer out West with my .22-250 and 55 gr. spire points, and never had to shoot a second shot on them. Some went over 200 lbs. and they dropped like a rock with the little 55 gr. bullet. Distances varied from 100 yds. to 364 yds. (laser measured). I think a .270 with a 110 gr. will do just fine with a shoulder shot broadside.-Vall

[RSY]

If light recoil is the holy grail, the answer lies in Glenn's post. The 110-gr. TSX from Barnes is dynamite and fullhouse loads shouldn't bother your lady.

Now, on the issue of recoil: When I am teaching/prepping an adult (or adolescent) beginning shooter, I don't like to give recoil too much consideration. Making it a conversation point lends it undue weight in the student shooter's mind and can often inadvertently result in stoking their fear.(!) That's not to say I don't address it. What I tell them is that if they take to heart the methods and techniques I am going to convey to them, then recoil will barely be an afterthought when shooting almost any common cartridge.

Another key is to avoid having them shoot off the bench. The bench is for sighting in, not riflery instruction, and can make even pussycat cartridges uncomfortable to shoot. Of the four positions, it's best to concentrate on (1) a good open-legged sitting, and (2) a bit of offhand, making sure sitting is mastered. Using field expedient rests is good, too: shooting against trees, off fenceposts, etc.

All the best,
Scott

[4t5]

My guess is your woods will limit you to short shots anyhow,150 yrds or less,that load you suggest should do wonderful, go and have fun!

[adirondakjack]

here's my thinking.

I shoot an 8mm Mauser myself, and due to two fusion operations on my neck, shy away from top end loads. That said, BULLET WEIGHT is important. For the mauser, I use a 180 at 2500 fps. Not max by any means, nor the heaviest bullet, but in my neck of the woods (adirondacks), most shots aren't all that far, so downrange velocity will still be good.

For a 270 I'd wanna run a 150 grainer at around that same 2500 fps (to get good bullet expansion), since yer not shooting real far either in most instances.... Recoil would be modest, no mousephart, but not a killer either IF the gun fits her halfway decent. MAKE SURE length of pull is not excessive.

[moxgrove]

That light load is in the same league as the 6.8 spc load. Should work just fine on deer. I mean the 25-35 has killed a lot of deer. Not flinching will definitely make an effective shot easier