Boolits for Californians...

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Tue Jul 15, 2008 9:40 pm

OK... Somthing for the Californians wanting a more economical way around the "lead ban"

I was just reading up on dropping bismuth/tin shot, and 95/5 Bi/Sn melts well and drops to 94% density of Lead/antimony of the same hardness.

Yes, at $6.50/lb its pricy ($7.50/lb 95/5), but it's cheaper than Barnes/monolithics and it should cast up well (Bi/Sn/Cd is used for chamber casts) and if buffered should shoot well too... Just a thought...

http://www.huntersbismuth.com/pricing.html

don Tomás · Post by **don Tomás** » Tue Jul 15, 2008 10:19 pm

Yes, but will the bismuth make my roast condor taste funny? Inquiring minds...

Tom

(and I guess depleted uranium is out??)

scr83jp · Post by **scr83jp** » Tue Jul 15, 2008 10:53 pm

Old Ironsights wrote:OK... Somthing for the Californians wanting a more economical way around the "lead ban"

I was just reading up on dropping bismuth/tin shot, and 95/5 Bi/Sn melts well and drops to 94% density of Lead/antimony of the same hardness.

Yes, at $6.50/lb its pricy ($7.50/lb 95/5), but it's cheaper than Barnes/monolithics and it should cast up well (Bi/Sn/Cd is used for chamber casts) and if buffered should shoot well too... Just a thought...

http://www.huntersbismuth.com/pricing.html

Everything has to be on the approved list or you're in for an expensive experience proving what you made is acceptable.Magtech is making all copper 225gr .452 cal pistol bullets but there is no load data for them,midway has them for $82.99/100.

popeye44 · Post by **popeye44** » Tue Jul 15, 2008 10:59 pm

I need to relate a true story that happened to me years ago with bismuth. I got hold of some bismuth sticks and
saw that it was soft and shiney. These were 1lb sticks.I melted some in a small Lee 3lb pot and really liked the
melt because the temp was lower than lead. I was using a Lee 240swc mold. These shot great from my M29 Smith
behind 5gr Bullseye. Made a nice plinking load. A guy at work said he would like to try some in his Charter 44sp.
I brought him some to load and he loaded them and said they shot well in his pistol. One Saturday we decided to
go shooting up at my pond. He also brought along his Marlin 44mag rifle. We were shooting into the water and
having a big old time and he asks if he could shoot some of my 44mag loads in the Marlin. He loads the rifle up
and starts shooting. The first rounds go well. The next couple go wild and all there after look like a spray on the
water. Pull the trigger and one big splash with lots of little ones the same direction. We stopped shooting the
Marlin and he ejected the rounds. I put them in my Smith and they shoot great. Needlsss to say he starts to
cuss my loads and I tell him how sorry his gun is. Neither of us could figure what was wrong. To make a long
story short, the bullets were MELTNG IN THE BARREL of the Marlin because the melting point of bismuth is much
lower than lead. He swore off shooting lead bullets that day and ''any'' of my loads. Never have been able to live
that one dn.
Iron Sites. Your alloy may be good but dont try the pure stuff in a rifle.
ps.
That Marlin of his had a Micro-Groove barrel. Have heard they dont shoot cast or swaged bullets well.
That true??

Billaz · Post by **Billaz** » Tue Jul 15, 2008 11:19 pm

A gas check should take care of the melting in a rifle barrel... I think it's a good option for Cali--..

Bill

TedH · Post by **TedH** » Tue Jul 15, 2008 11:20 pm

popeye44 wrote: That Marlin of his had a Micro-Groove barrel. Have heard they dont shoot cast or swaged bullets well.
That true??

No. They can shoot cast bullets as well as a ballard rifled barrel. You just have to match the bullet to the bore.

86er · Post by **86er** » Wed Jul 16, 2008 12:22 am

Mike, Sal and I put our heads together and have received patents on bismuth alloy cast bullets, bismuth filled copper jacketed bullets and even rimfire heeled bullets. The raw bismuth is being melted and the testing has begun. Hang in there for results........

Post by **Old Savage** » Wed Jul 16, 2008 12:37 am

If a game warden looks at it does it look like lead???

El Chivo · Post by **El Chivo** » Wed Jul 16, 2008 3:09 am

Old Savage wrote:If a game warden looks at it does it look like lead???

He might deem it to be lead, and your goose is cooked.

By the way, I heard scuttlebutt you could lose your firearm and your vehicle if in violation of this law. Technically the fine is $500.00 but if they can take your vehicle as well...

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Wed Jul 16, 2008 9:07 am

Yeah, you definately don't want to use them for target shooting/hot barrel situations. IIRC Cerrosafe is part bismuth... But as a pure hunting load (one or 2 shots) it should work OK.

Just gas-check &/or buffer the base.

As for the Game Warden having fits - lead is easy to sheck for. Just carry a NIB "lead detection (lead paint) kit from the hardware store. Bismuth won't register - lead will.

Marc · Post by **Marc** » Wed Jul 16, 2008 10:25 am

Don't the bullets have to be approved by the state to be legal? I don't think home made bullets will make the grade.

86er · Post by **86er** » Wed Jul 16, 2008 10:34 am

We submitted the bullets to CA for approval. The boxes will be marked "NON-TOXIC AMMUNITION" - Approved by the State of California for use Statewide in hunting and shooting activities. The Game Wardens have a quick test for it. There is no melting in the barrel with proper alloy mixture and gas checks are included. The rounds will be "standard" velocity for the cartridge, not "+ P".

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Wed Jul 16, 2008 11:11 am

86er wrote:Mike, Sal and I put our heads together and have received patents on bismuth alloy cast bullets, bismuth filled copper jacketed bullets and even rimfire heeled bullets. The raw bismuth is being melted and the testing has begun. Hang in there for results........

Great minds think alike?

Now, if I only had enough room & $$$$ for a coil-fed CNC screw machine I could be turning out brass & copper monolithics...

Modoc ED · Post by **Modoc ED** » Wed Jul 16, 2008 11:33 am

sobenk wrote:
Old Savage wrote:If a game warden looks at it does it look like lead???

He might deem it to be lead, and your goose is cooked.

By the way, I heard scuttlebutt you could lose your firearm and your vehicle if in violation of this law. Technically the fine is $500.00 but if they can take your vehicle as well...

That's not how it's suppose to work. If a warden/LOE has a question about a round that you have, he is to take one sample/round of the ammo you have and get all your particulars -- name, drivers license #, address, license plate #, and send the round to Fish & Game for testing. If it is determined to be a lead round, action will be taken.

Modoc ED · Post by **Modoc ED** » Wed Jul 16, 2008 11:40 am

Bismuth may make a good filling for jacketed bullets but I don't think it is a good idea to use them like cast, lead bullets.

Remember way back when lead was banned for hunting Geese and Duck and Bismuth was brought out as a substitute for lead? One of the first things that happened was that the Bismuth substitute along with other substitutes were deemed to be too harsh for then existing shotgun barrels and chokes and in fact ruined many barrels and chokes.

Even today chokes are designated "For lead only" in some cases or "Bismuth/Hevi-Shot only".

EDIT:

"BLUNDER & SENIOR MOMENT"

When I posted the above yesterday, I was thinking steel but typing Bismuth. Duhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!

I swear -- sometimes, I think I would be the perfect person to put on a poster describing a bumb-butt!! My only excuse is that I will be 65 next month.

86er · Post by **86er** » Wed Jul 16, 2008 11:59 am

Actually, Bismuth is softer than lead and is the only non-toxic substitute (that is not a mix ) that is harmless to old barrels and interchangable with lead shot safe barrels.

J Miller · Post by **J Miller** » Wed Jul 16, 2008 12:05 pm

86er wrote:We submitted the bullets to CA for approval. The boxes will be marked "NON-TOXIC AMMUNITION" - Approved by the State of California for use Statewide in hunting and shooting activities. The Game Wardens have a quick test for it. There is no melting in the barrel with proper alloy mixture and gas checks are included. The rounds will be "standard" velocity for the cartridge, not "+ P".

Joe,
A bit of clarification ... are these bullets to be sold for reloaders and in loaded ammo, or in loaded ammo only?

I'm looking forward to seeing your caliber and bullet style list when it's available.

I'm not in CA, but I've got no qualms about trying different ammo.

Joe

86er · Post by **86er** » Wed Jul 16, 2008 12:21 pm

There will be bullets by Cast Performance, and some cartridges loaded by Grizzly Cartridge. Also, Sal from Bismuth Cartridge USA will be importing shotshells any minute now, and has bullets coming as well.

Killer Kanuck · Post by **Killer Kanuck** » Wed Jul 16, 2008 1:09 pm

Speaking of bismuth, where can a person buy bismuth shot? I've been trying to find some to load up some 10g shells for goose hunting this fall with my 1901.

Post by **Hobie** » Wed Jul 16, 2008 1:22 pm

sobenk wrote:
Old Savage wrote:If a game warden looks at it does it look like lead???

He might deem it to be lead, and your goose is cooked.

By the way, I heard scuttlebutt you could lose your firearm and your vehicle if in violation of this law. Technically the fine is $500.00 but if they can take your vehicle as well...

Don't you just love the forfieture laws?

handirifle · Post by **handirifle** » Wed Jul 16, 2008 3:14 pm

86er wrote:Mike, Sal and I put our heads together and have received patents on bismuth alloy cast bullets, bismuth filled copper jacketed bullets and even rimfire heeled bullets. The raw bismuth is being melted and the testing has begun. Hang in there for results........

Good for you guys! Glad someone is making something out of this mess, besides the big bullet guys. How will the pricing be?

Something for you guys to consider, if you haven't already, (hence the "alloy" part of your post) that adding tin might bring the hardness up quite bit, and also even a copper plated version, like the way federal does their new "bonded" bullets (I forget the brand name), where the lead bullets are actually copper, or copper alloy, plated. Those were very accurate in my 243.

Keep us posted on your progress please. I like this a whole lot better than having to go the all copper route with the modified Barnes TSX offerings. Bullets one can actually afford to shoot.

I'd imagine you could submit your "Brand" to the CA DFG and get the bullets themselves approved and eliminate all the worries mentioned above.

Poohgyrr · Post by **Poohgyrr** » Thu Jul 17, 2008 3:29 am

86er wrote: The boxes will be marked "NON-TOXIC AMMUNITION" -.

Non toxic ammo, hmmm.... Never thought I'd see the day I'd have to buy broken boolits.

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Thu Jul 17, 2008 9:11 am

Killer Kanuck wrote:Speaking of bismuth, where can a person buy bismuth shot? I've been trying to find some to load up some 10g shells for goose hunting this fall with my 1901.

Might have a hard time there... But it's easy enough to drop your own.

Print out the pages linked HERE.

These guys are on the 'net selling bismuth for casting, but over at the 16ga Society they seem to think they are actually out of business. I dunno. Haven't tried yet.

donw · Post by **donw** » Thu Jul 17, 2008 10:14 am

the new regs say the bullet may have no more than 1% (one) lead by weight. for the HUNTING of specified game within the specified areas of the condors range.

the dfg does supply a list of currently approved non-lead ammo/bullets and a map of the non-lead ammo areas. it's mostly around the greater Los Angeles and surrounding areas...it's a large area but not california wide.

incidently, it also says there are certain critters you may hunt and you may plink or target shoot with lead bullets within that area...it's HUNTING specified animals with and/or possessing the lead/lead containing bullets AND the firearm that will fire the lead/lead containing bullets that's gonna get you into trouble.

so...if'n yer gonna hunt wild pigs, deer, bear and a few others, within the the areas so specfied you cannot use bullets containing more than 1%(one) lead by weight or even carry the ammo or a firearm capable of firing it (the lead bullets) but...

What are the lead projectiles that are prohibited?
The Commission has defined projectiles so that the prohibited bullets and other
projectiles can be understood. A “projectile” is defined as any bullet, ball, sabot, slug,
buckshot or other device which is expelled from a firearm through a barrel by force.
Additionally, for hunting nongame, projectiles include “shot” and “pellets”; lead in these
projectiles is prohibited as well.
It will be illegal to use any projectile that contains more than 1 percent lead for hunting
big game or nongame within the affected area. This includes centerfire as well as blackpowder/
muzzle-loader, and rimfire projectiles.

you may target shoot, plink and hunt certain small animals with lead bullets...it's all there in the regs.

What are the regulations and options for hunting with .22 caliber or smaller rimfire
firearms?
Rimfire firearms are not legal in California for hunting big game or for depredation killing
of big game animals (these are primarily deer and wild pig in condor range).
Rimfire firearms are legal for nongame animals (coyotes and ground squirrels primarily)
and for sport hunting of small game mammals [hares (jackrabbits), cottontail, and tree
squirrel]. However, for nongame animals the Commission has prohibited use of lead
projectiles in .22 rimfire or smaller firearms as part of this regulation change in condor
range.
The Commission has not addressed the issue of hunting small game mammals because
that section of the regulations was not “opened” for potential change. Therefore, hunters
can legally hunt jackrabbit, cottontail, and tree squirrel using lead projectiles, but not
ground squirrels in the same area. Part of the reasoning for this is that unlike nongame
animals that are hunted and usually left in the field, game species must be retrieved and
not wasted.
The Department and Commission are of the understanding that non-lead projectiles for
rimfire are not readily available or manufactured at this time and that the only non-lead
rimfire is in .22 caliber magnum, and not for the very popular .22 short, long, or long rifle.

the wardens may seize your equipment for "testing for lead under controlled conditions". i don't recall reading about them being able to seize your car/truck/atv, though...that seems a bit extreme...if true...that should be ONLY in EXTREME cases, too. (makes one wonder what they'll do next doesn't it?)

http://www.dfg.ca.gov

Modoc ED · Post by **Modoc ED** » Thu Jul 17, 2008 10:51 am

86er -

Please see the edit to my post on page 1 of this thread.

Just wanted you and the other guys to know that I am only an idiot on Wednesdays only -- ok, ok, other days too but I'm old so I'll use that as my excuse.

Now where did I put that "Submit" button??

handirifle · Post by **handirifle** » Tue Jul 22, 2008 11:33 pm

Just wondering how this project is coming a long?

86er · Post by **86er** » Wed Jul 23, 2008 8:41 am

Mike is currently mixing the Bismuth with 1% -7% tin and testing each % out of a test barrel for bullet integrity and pressures. It's going to be early Nov probably before ammo/bullet are readily available but CA residents will be offered limited runs first out of necessity (probably around first week of Sept).

handirifle · Post by **handirifle** » Fri Jul 25, 2008 1:32 am

86er wrote:Mike is currently mixing the Bismuth with 1% -7% tin and testing each % out of a test barrel for bullet integrity and pressures. It's going to be early Nov probably before ammo/bullet are readily available but CA residents will be offered limited runs first out of necessity (probably around first week of Sept).

Thanks for the update, please keep us posted. What calibers on in the offering plans?

otteray · Post by **otteray** » Mon Apr 27, 2009 9:25 am

handirifle wrote:
86er wrote:Mike is currently mixing the Bismuth with 1% -7% tin and testing each % out of a test barrel for bullet integrity and pressures. It's going to be early Nov probably before ammo/bullet are readily available but CA residents will be offered limited runs first out of necessity (probably around first week of Sept).

Thanks for the update, please keep us posted. What calibers on in the offering plans?

Anything available yet?

El Chivo · Post by **El Chivo** » Mon Apr 27, 2009 11:20 am

if they take your vehicle, do they give you a ride home?

I also heard this, and I checked a little. Apparently it's a state law that along with any gun crime you can lose your vehicle. So it's not in the Fish & Game code, not that I saw. I am thinking they can't take your vehicle, unless there's some prosecutor that wants to go crazy and charge you with everything in the book.

Inquiring minds want to know...

Modoc ED · Post by **Modoc ED** » Mon Apr 27, 2009 11:31 am

El Chivo wrote:if they take your vehicle, do they give you a ride home?

I also heard this, and I checked a little. Apparently it's a state law that along with any gun crime you can lose your vehicle. So it's not in the Fish & Game code, not that I saw. I am thinking they can't take your vehicle, unless there's some prosecutor that wants to go crazy and charge you with everything in the book.

Inquiring minds want to know...

Wanna bet!! Three years ago we had a guy that had a legitimate deer tag for the X-1 Zone but he lived in the X-2 Zone. He shot a deer on his property in the X-2 Zone and was in the process of putting his X-1 Zone Tag on the antlers of the deer he had just shot and the Game Warden stepped out of the woods and arrested him. His rifle, and truck were confiscated on the spot and when he went to court the Judge made the confiscation of the rifle and truck permanent. The guy was also fined about $3500.00 dollars and lost all hunting priviledges in the State of CA for 5-years.

And no, you don't have to worry about a ride home. If it gets to the point where you have your vehicle confiscated, you get a free ride to jail where you can post bail and THEN you can call someone to give you a ride home. If you get caught on a Friday, Saturday, or Sunday, you can look forward to spending the entire weekend in jail as there ar no arraignments conducted in the courts (in my area) on Fridays and weekends.

Mike D. · Post by **Mike D.** » Mon Apr 27, 2009 11:34 am

I'll just stick to copper bullets for my HV loads. they are only used for hunting situations, lead is still OK for target shooting. Unless those pesky Condors are digging up the hillsides and eating the bullets it can't hurt 'em.

JReed · Post by **JReed** » Mon Apr 27, 2009 1:35 pm

So what is the word? I would sure like a cast bullet that I can shoot in my old rolling block and round balls for the front stuffers.

Modoc ED
He got slapped like that because he was poaching. Even if he had a tag he didn't have a tag for the area he was hunting in. The lead ban doesn't have a confiscation clause for violations.

Modoc ED · Post by **Modoc ED** » Mon Apr 27, 2009 3:36 pm

JReed wrote:Modoc ED
He got slapped like that because he was poaching. Even if he had a tag he didn't have a tag for the area he was hunting in. The lead ban doesn't have a confiscation clause for violations.

Yep, he was poaching. I just gave that example to show that a Game Warden CAN take your vehicle -- and the reason he got the violation was for shooting a deer in an area he didn't have a tag for even though he had a tag.

Don't forget. There are some Game Wardens/LEOs that WILL confiscate everything you've got on hand no matter what the violation and then wait for the court to sort it out. Sooooooooo, whether the lead ban does or doesn't have a confiscation clause, if the Game Warden/LEO is in doubt, he will take your vehicle, etc. and let his boss or the court sort it out.

Game Wardens are the lowest paid LEOs in the State of CA and as a result, Fish & Game don't get the sharpest knives in the drawer if you get my drift. Many who fail in Law Enforcement elsewhere turn to Fish & Game and because Fish & Game is so desperate for Game Wardens, they take many that are below par who can't think for themselves and will go obverboard enforcing Fish & Game regulations like confiscating a vehicle when it isn't called for.

marlinman93 · Post by **marlinman93** » Mon Apr 27, 2009 4:43 pm

Here's another option for those who can't shoot real lead!

http://www.meisterbullets.com/AWSProduc ... ts_.45_Cal.

JReed · Post by **JReed** » Mon Apr 27, 2009 5:43 pm

marlinman93 wrote:Here's another option for those who can't shoot real lead!
http://www.meisterbullets.com/AWSProduc ... ts_.45_Cal.

I can just imagine the reaction I'll get from one of the pigs at Vandenburg when I shot one broad side with one of those.

Modoc Ed I hear ya on the Ca game wardens. I have dealt with a few that leave ya wondering what planet they are from.

FWiedner · Post by **FWiedner** » Mon Apr 27, 2009 5:54 pm

Those little marshmallows that they sell for hot cocoa are about .44.

May the CA crowd could use them for environmentally safe ammunition.

I bet they wouldn't kill them big ugly buzzards either.

Modoc ED · Post by **Modoc ED** » Mon Apr 27, 2009 6:35 pm

JReed wrote:Modoc Ed I hear ya on the Ca game wardens. I have dealt with a few that leave ya wondering what planet they are from.

Jeremy -

Long before the CA lead ban came about I was/still am using my Remington 12ga pump shotgun with the fully rifled barrel and iron sights along with Remington 2¾" 1oz Copper Solid Sabot Slugs for pigs/hogs. The Copper Solid Sabot Slugs are expensive these days but they sure do knock those pigs/hogs down.

As for the Game Wardens -- ya just gotta experience em. It's hard to describe them.

Bear 45/70 · Post by **Bear 45/70** » Mon Apr 27, 2009 7:33 pm

Why bother trying to find lead replacement materials. At the rate the Kalifornia Legislature is going, you won't be able to carry rock next year.

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Mon Apr 27, 2009 8:44 pm

Modoc ED wrote:...As for the Game Wardens -- ya just gotta experience em. It's hard to describe them.

Granola crunching California Hippies who get off on Uniforms & Oppression but hate the Police/Military?

I wanna be a forest ranger
I wanna go to Yellowstone
Chipmunks are the only danger
Give them little birdies a home!

Meh. SSS