Marlin First and Second Model 444's

6pt-sika · Post by **6pt-sika** » Thu Jul 10, 2008 3:38 pm

I just got my digi cam fixed and thought I would post a pic of my First and Second Model Marlin 444's .

About 10 days ago I had recieved a new to me First Model that was made in the first year of production (1965) .

From the bottom , my new to me 1965 vintage First Model ! That scope will have to go !

Next uo another First Model 1968 vintage with a Weaver K2.5 I just recently mounted .

Next up my First Model "square lever" vintage 1971 , this was the last year they had the First Model in production.Also to the best of my knowledge this was the only year that the first model had a square lever.

And at the top my Second Model vintage 1971 , this was the first year of production for this model . I also just recently mounted a old Weaver K2.5 on this one as well .

TedH · Post by **TedH** » Thu Jul 10, 2008 7:10 pm

Nice. I'll take the one on the top. You surely don't need 4-444's.

6pt-sika · Post by **6pt-sika** » Thu Jul 10, 2008 7:35 pm

TedH wrote:Nice. I'll take the one on the top. You surely don't need 4-444's.

Nope sure don't "need" four of them

But I have EIGHT

kaschi · Post by **kaschi** » Thu Jul 10, 2008 11:30 pm

Judging by those stock designs and knowing that they are 444's, I'll bet your cheek knows does not look forward to you taking the rifles out for a practice session!

6pt-sika · Post by **6pt-sika** » Fri Jul 11, 2008 12:16 am

kaschi wrote:Judging by those stock designs and knowing that they are 444's, I'll bet your cheek knows does not look forward to you taking the rifles out for a practice session!

Actually I found those big old Monte Carlo stocks to be fairly comfortable from the bench ! And believe me I have shot the 1968 and 1971 models quite a bit in the past !

Now I am a confirmed stock crawler and with these low power Weavers and the mounts I'm using I can't do that . So the felt recoil may very well change at the bench with this new setup I'm trying !

JDL · Post by **JDL** » Fri Jul 11, 2008 7:04 pm

Very nice Marlins!! Since I'm partial to pistol grip rifles, I really like the second model. How long was the production on the second model?
JDL

salvo · Post by **salvo** » Fri Jul 11, 2008 7:41 pm

Nice! And I must admit those two Weavers look right at home.

6pt-sika · Post by **6pt-sika** » Fri Jul 11, 2008 8:23 pm

JDL wrote:Very nice Marlins!! Since I'm partial to pistol grip rifles, I really like the second model. How long was the production on the second model?
JDL

Thats a good question

Brophy's book claims the two barrel bands on the Second Model were eliminated in 1976 . Now I am not sure if that was for the entire year or at some point during that year !

By the way in his book they also refer to what I call the "Second Model" as the 444S .And of course they say the "S" stood for Sporter .

6pt-sika · Post by **6pt-sika** » Fri Jul 11, 2008 8:29 pm

salvo wrote:Nice! And I must admit those two Weavers look right at home.

In the picture above notice how the Weaver scope on the Second Model is slightly further forward then the Weaver scope on the circa 1968 First Model ?

Both rifles have Weaver 63B bases on them . But the one on the Second Model is a bit longer so I was able to position the scope more forward .
I mounted both those with bases and rings I had on hand . Then later I purchased three more NEW 63B bases and they were all like the base on the First Model .
I wonder when Weaver changed the 63B base ?

6pt-sika · Post by **6pt-sika** » Sat Jul 12, 2008 12:24 am

I changed the mounts on my new First Model so at least I could get my head down on the stock . And put another K2.5 on my 1971 First Model .

Also yanked the K2.5 off my 336-44 and put it on top my "New Model 1895" of 1978 vibtage !

Got a lever silhouette match to run tommorrow , so I'm gonna drag the four 444's and the 45-70 along to sight them in with the variouse cast bullets I have chosen .

6pt-sika · Post by **6pt-sika** » Sat Jul 12, 2008 9:36 pm

Well went to the range early this AM to get the silhouettes set up for the lever match !

I had two shooters show up so we pretty much shot for fun ! Well they did , I waited until they were finished and all the targets were stored away and then I sighted in the four 444's and the 1978 vintage 1895 !

My 1965 gun was sighted in with the Ranch Dog 432-265 , the 1968 rifle was sighted in with the Original Ranch Dog 432-285 , the 1971 First Model was sighted in with the Ranch Dog 432-300 . And finally I got to the Second Version and sighted it in with "Boomer Mikeys" group buy mould the 434-330 !

After that I pulled out my 1978 vintage New Model 1895 and sighted it in with the Ranch Dog 460-350 . After that I cleaned the 45-70 and tried seeing where the RAnch Dog 460-425 would print with the 350's sight setting .

I was not totally satisfied with the way the 460-425 acted so I think I will try and get out early in the AM and shoot the 1895 some more , possibly the Second Model 444 and my Encore Pro Hunter with it's new 338 Federal barrel in place .

Hmmm , I am actually gettinga jump on hunting season this year !

6pt-sika · Post by **6pt-sika** » Sun Jun 21, 2009 3:33 am

When I get a chance I will post pics of the "additional" 444's I've picked up since last adding to this thread !

But at the moment I have started the process to get a 432-375GC and 432-400GC engineered for my purposes and hopefully cut for use this coming season !

6pt-sika · Post by **6pt-sika** » Sun Jun 21, 2009 3:39 am

A 1970 Centenniel First Model 444 I picked up around october of last year !

At the range with a Weaver K3 .

When I first got it home and cleaned up !

6pt-sika · Post by **6pt-sika** » Sun Jun 21, 2009 3:42 am

Here a 1966 vintage First Model 444 I got the same week as the 1970 Centennial !

At the range with a nice old Weaver K4 on top !

6pt-sika · Post by **6pt-sika** » Sun Jun 21, 2009 3:46 am

Here's my circa 1975 Second Model 444 I got maybe a month after the 1970 and 1966 rifles !

These were at the range right after I did the paperwork at my FFL's place . While waiting I attached a nice old Weaver K4 .

6pt-sika · Post by **6pt-sika** » Sun Jun 21, 2009 3:51 am

Here's my latest to date First Model 444 !

This one was made in 1969 !

I used my gunsmith buddies FFL to get this one ! While I was there I had Weaver bases and rings with me and was setting them up as I waited the callback . My buddy told me he had a decent old Weaver K6 he was selling for a customer , but it had some blueing loss . So while waiting I bought the K6 for $40 and put the whole mess together .

This scope has worked out to be an excellent load scope for these rifles when I start testing loads at 50 yards .

6pt-sika · Post by **6pt-sika** » Sun Jun 21, 2009 3:52 am

So then now to have one for each year of manufacture of the First and Second Model 444's I still need a First Model that was made in 1967 as well as Second Models from 1972 , 1973 and 1974 .

Pete44ru · Post by **Pete44ru** » Sun Jun 21, 2009 6:34 am

You'd probably cry (like I do NOW), if you saw what I did to my new .444 back in 1967, after I had it a few months and got tired of the long barrel, etc.

I cut/crowned the barrel to a little over 16", and rasped the monte carlo off the top of the stock comb, then replaced the scope (which was in a Weaver Lo-Swing mount) with a peep.

The main reason I replaced the Lo-Swing is the huge gash that the scope bell cut into my off-eyebrow, when I shot it at the range - trying to sight-in the open sights.

I didn't realize, until too late, that when the scope was swung out of the way (as directed by Weaver), it put the shooter's face in harm's way on a rifle with heavy recoil.

It didn't hurt "too" bad, but I hadda stop shooting until I could stop the bleeding.

.

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Sun Jun 21, 2009 7:32 am

I sure wish they still made those Weaver K scopes. Rugged, Simple, and they look better on most guns (to me) than the more "modern" ones. I had a K-12 on my first centerfire rifle (6mm Ruger M77 Varmint) and it was awesome. I "had" to switch to a more powerful scope recently, because the gun is capable of 1/4" groups if I do my part, but the 12-x couldn't differentiate that small a distance at 100 yards, and a 10-40x can so easily. Doesn't look as nice, though.

madman4570 · Post by **madman4570** » Sun Jun 21, 2009 10:08 am

A very nice collection that anyone would be very proud to own!

6pt-sika · Post by **6pt-sika** » Sun Jun 21, 2009 10:53 am

madman4570 wrote:A very nice collection that anyone would be very proud to own!

Here's something that fits with your handle a little better and from pretty much the same time period !

This is a "New Model 1895" circa 1978 in 45-70 that I got here from Boge Quinn about 2 years ago !

And here;s the deer I smoked with it last season shooting the Ranch Dog 460-350GC and a Weaver K3 !

6pt-sika · Post by **6pt-sika** » Sun Jun 21, 2009 10:55 am

I kinda wanna start doing the same thing with the "New Model 1895" that were made from 1972 to 1979 as I'm trying to do with the old 444's !

But do I really "need" EIGHT old 45-70's as well as TWELVE old 444's

Steve Collins · Post by **Steve Collins** » Sun Jun 21, 2009 11:32 pm

I found a First Generation at my local Cabelas; I haven't picked it up yet! They also have one of the new stainless XLRs in .444. I hate decisions like this! I like being able to use the same bullets my .44 does in my rifle. My question I guess is, what is the biggest game you'd feel comfortable shooting with the 444, and how hot do you load it?

6pt-sika · Post by **6pt-sika** » Mon Jun 22, 2009 12:47 am

Steve Collins wrote:I found a First Generation at my local Cabelas; I haven't picked it up yet! They also have one of the new stainless XLRs in .444. I hate decisions like this! I like being able to use the same bullets my .44 does in my rifle. My question I guess is, what is the biggest game you'd feel comfortable shooting with the 444, and how hot do you load it?

I am kinda of the opinion that the 444 will handle an elk up to maybe 200 yards if you can shoot well enough and you take a good shot !

However all I ever use them for are whitetails . They'd probably work great for baited black bear as well .

I just tend to prefer using other things for more then deer/black bear .

I usually run my jacketed bullet loads up to whatever max in the reloading manual is and with the latest cast bullets I've been shooting that are water quenched I run them fairly warm also .

dr walker · Post by **dr walker** » Mon Jun 22, 2009 6:51 am

Nice rifles and pictures. Not only are you putting together a nice Marlin collection, but also a nice Weaver scope collection.

6pt-sika · Post by **6pt-sika** » Mon Jun 22, 2009 7:25 am

dr walker wrote:Nice rifles and pictures. Not only are you putting together a nice Marlin collection, but also a nice Weaver scope collection.

Thank you !

Actually I pruned the Marlin's back about 2 months ago when I sold about 30 of them !

But not to worry I still have almost twice that many left !

Still have about eleven 444's I think .

6pt-sika · Post by **6pt-sika** » Tue Jun 23, 2009 8:23 am

For TWO WEEKS now I've been formulating in my mind what I'm gonna do load wise with the four of these that haven't been blooded yet by me .

Might even press back into service the four I blooded last year with some different bullets again this year !

6pt-sika · Post by **6pt-sika** » Wed Jun 24, 2009 9:17 am

Maybe when I get home monday the drawings for the 432-375GC and 432-400GC will have arrived !

Got an email from the fellow who's doing the drawings for me and I think he may almost be finished

6pt-sika · Post by **6pt-sika** » Mon Jul 06, 2009 11:56 am

Added another First Model 444 to the accumulation !

I suppose we can call this my #2 circa 1971 First Model 444

Anyway it's in really nice shape so I figured what the heck !

flatnose · Post by **flatnose** » Mon Jul 06, 2009 12:36 pm

6pt,
I notice that your collection of rifles all have barrel bands. When did marlin start fitting the 444 with forend caps.
Is there any difference with accuracy between the two types.

6pt-sika · Post by **6pt-sika** » Mon Jul 06, 2009 12:45 pm

flatnose wrote:6pt,
I notice that your collection of rifles all have barrel bands. When did marlin start fitting the 444 with forend caps.
Is there any difference with accuracy between the two types.

They started making them without barrel bands in 1975 !

All of the ones you see pictured in this thread except for the 1895 were made 1975 or earlier .

Seems 1975 was the last year any left the factory WITH barrel bands and also the same time they started making them without the barrel bands .

Blaine · Post by **Blaine** » Mon Jul 06, 2009 12:59 pm

Nice Marlins, 6PT

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Mon Jul 06, 2009 6:32 pm

Steve Collins wrote:I found a First Generation at my local Cabelas; I haven't picked it up yet! They also have one of the new stainless XLRs in .444. I hate decisions like this! I like being able to use the same bullets my .44 does in my rifle. My question I guess is, what is the biggest game you'd feel comfortable shooting with the 444, and how hot do you load it?

I like the XLR because I like stainless, but if the extra barrel bothered me, I'd just cut it down to 'Guide' length. I don't do much 'brush hunting' with it though.

The biggest game around here is a whitetail, and the .444 would be seriously overpowered unless I wanted to shoot one at 300 yards.

Bullet selection is the big .444 problem - too few heavies or solids (but there ARE some over 400 grains out there). Lots of BIG game has fallen to bullets smaller than 400 grains, though, and lots of BIG game has fallen to the .45-70's 400 grain and 405 grain bullets.

Shot placement and bullet construction probably mean more than what cartridge does the delivery, other than you want something with low enough recoil to facilitate the shot placement, and high enough velocity to do the penetration. Look at all the penetration tests where even 1,000 fps out-penetrates way faster projectiles, though.

The other 'issue' with the .444 is some say the twist won't stabilize the longer heavier bullets, but I've read conflicting opinions on that, including ones from people who've actually loaded up the heavies, and range-tested them to SEE if they stabilize. I think some guys were shooting well upwards of 400 grains with no problems, maybe more.

I'm sure some of the 'actually BEEN there, and actually DONE that' crowd will pipe up soon (I've only READ about being there and READ about doing that...

).

6pt-sika · Post by **6pt-sika** » Mon Jul 06, 2009 7:00 pm

AJMD429 wrote:The other 'issue' with the .444 is some say the twist won't stabilize the longer heavier bullets, but I've read conflicting opinions on that, including ones from people who've actually loaded up the heavies, and range-tested them to SEE if they stabilize. I think some guys were shooting well upwards of 400 grains with no problems, maybe more.

I'm sure some of the 'actually BEEN there, and actually DONE that' crowd will pipe up soon (I've only READ about being there and READ about doing that... ).

I personally have already shot cast bullets up to 350 grains in the slow twist Micro Groove barrels with very very good results . These were home cast WW WQ bullets pushed hard with H322 .

In the Ballard rifled 444's which have a faster twist I have shot 400 grain cast bullets with decent results .Matter of fact I have about a dozen BTB 405 grainers sitting here someone gave me to try in one of my Ballard rifled 444's .

The thing about bullet stabalization is pur BS !

The Slow Twist Micro barrels can't handle the 400 grainers but the Ballard faster twist barrels can . It is my opinion that the slow twist Micro barrels can handle up to a 375 grainer when water quenched or of a harder alloy and sized to .432" or bigger . And I might add it is my intention to have a suitable 375 grain gas check mold made expressly to prove this to myself . Also want a 400 grain gas check mold just for the heck of it !

Lastmohecken · Post by **Lastmohecken** » Mon Jul 06, 2009 10:59 pm

I used to own a late 70's or eairly 80's 444 Marlin which really surprised me, when testing handloads with the 265gr Hornady bullet. I had always used the 240 grain Remington factory load, and then I started handloading for it using the 265gr bullet. I was testing a heavy loaded 265 load, and the gun was sighted in for the 240 factorys.

I expected a different point of impact, but wow? I couldn't hardly believe what I was seeing. At around 150yds the 265gr bullets were hitting 2 ft low and a foot to the left. I never did come up with a good 265gr load, that was as accurate as the 240gr factorys. It later went down the gun trading road, when I found something else I couldn't live without, but not before I bagged a running buck one year, that turned out to be one of my most memorable hunts.

I believe to this day that the rifling in that gun, just didn't stabilize that 265 gr bullet, like it did the 240's.

6pt-sika · Post by **6pt-sika** » Tue Jul 07, 2009 8:39 pm

Lastmohecken wrote:I believe to this day that the rifling in that gun, just didn't stabilize that 265 gr bullet, like it did the 240's.

By no means am I saying you are wrong with your own rifle .

But I can say this , of the NINE Pre 1976 slow twist Micro 444's I own at the present all of them have shot well with 265 grain bullets and way way larger . Sometimes I pushed them hard and fast , and other times I pushed them not so fast !

With plain aircooled wheelweight bullets I normally load them with XMP5744 moderately . But when I use water quenched wheelweights I push them HARD . And for me they have stabalized both ways . The only trouble I've ever encountered was when I tried to shoot 315 grain or larger bullets that were not water quenched in the slow twist barrels . The soft bullets seemed to strip out in the Micro Groove rifling . But when I water quenched the same bullets and put a different powder in the cases they straightened right out !

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Tue Jul 07, 2009 9:38 pm

6pt-sika wrote:Still have about eleven 444's I think .

How do you get by with so few...?

You should have #44 .44's or .444's, #30 .30-30's, #45 .45-70's, #22 .22's, etc...

Post by **Hobie** » Tue Jul 07, 2009 9:44 pm

For at least a while, the .444 Marlin was da bomb in the Contender. Improper reloading did turn a couple into "bombs". I would think you could hunt just about anything in North America with the .444 as it has been done by others. And... didn't somebody take the .444 to Africa and kill the big-5?

6pt-sika · Post by **6pt-sika** » Tue Jul 07, 2009 11:04 pm

To me the funny thing about this accumulation of mine , is the fact that the 444 is NOT my favourite cartridge and far from it actually !

I just happened to get intrested in the early 444 Marlin's and the variouse cast bullet molds I could get !

Fact is you can get some animal stompin loads in these things and the recoil isn't bad at all !

6pt-sika · Post by **6pt-sika** » Tue Jul 07, 2009 11:09 pm

AJMD429 wrote:
6pt-sika wrote:Still have about eleven 444's I think .
How do you get by with so few...?

You should have #44 .44's or .444's, #30 .30-30's, #45 .45-70's, #22 .22's, etc...

I "had" about 80 Marlin's a few months ago !

But I turned about 35 of them into ;

1 - Para Ordanace 1911

3 - Ruger #1's

3 - Comtemporary Flintlock Longrifle's

1 - 444 Marlin

4 - Weaver "K" scopes

1 - Remington 32 over and under

And a two month vacation to the Philippines

Heck maybe if I had 120 of them and pruned the pile down to 50 I could have stayed in PI for 4 months !!!!!!!

6pt-sika · Post by **6pt-sika** » Wed Jul 08, 2009 8:26 am

Cleaned up my new 1971 rifle with fine steel wool and Hoppe's on the metal . Then used Hoppe's on a rag to clean the wood . After drying well I put 3 coats of "Bowling Alley Wax" on the wood and the rifle shined like new money !

Also took the terrible "See Thru" mount off and replaced it with a Weaver 63B base and Weaver medium extension rings and put the Bushnell 1.5-6x back on top . Also have loaded up about 30 rounds with the Ranch Dog 432-350GC and pushed it with H322 .

Also took the Weaver K6 off my 1969 rifle and replaced that one with a Weaver K3 60B and loaded some Lyman 429640 solid nose bullets with XMP5744 to sight in in this one .

Hopefully I'll make it to the range in the next couple hours !

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Wed Jul 08, 2009 7:54 pm

6pt-sika wrote: 1 - Remington 32 over and under

We want to see PICTURES of that...!

6pt-sika · Post by **6pt-sika** » Wed Jul 08, 2009 10:31 pm

AJMD429 wrote:
6pt-sika wrote: 1 - Remington 32 over and under
We want to see PICTURES of that...!

It's getting a complete refurbishment right now .

Maybe when it's complete

This one is marked skeet on the underside of the action and has skeet in and skeet out chokes . It also has NO rib of anykind !
It just might eventually make it's way to Simmons for a nice vent rib !
Although all the targets I've shot at with this gun so far have broken in the air !

6pt-sika · Post by **6pt-sika** » Thu Jul 09, 2009 9:54 am

Sighted in the 1971 - 444 with the Ranch Dog 432-350GC bullets and H322 . It shot the load I'd been using in the 1969 rifle very well . Later I tried it with a couple different charges of Varget and the RD 432-350GC , the heavier load put all 3 in one hole at 100 yards !

Shot the 1971 offhand at 100 yards at a medium sized rock a few times and got white smoke off the rock ! That rifles ready for bear shooting !

Also sighted in the 1969 rifle with the Lyman 429640 and XMP5744 . And then proceeded to take it and worry the same rock some more .

6pt-sika · Post by **6pt-sika** » Wed Jul 15, 2009 2:18 pm

6pt-sika wrote:

I wanted to find out something about the scope on this rifle so I looked thru all my Shooters Bible's from the 60's and 70's as well as what I had from the 90's !

Sorry to say I don't have any from the 80's .

Also looked in a book I just purchased called "Old Gunsights and Riflescopes" .

Anyway I called Bushnell today and miracle of miracle's they told me the exact year from the seriel number underneath and an approximate retail value at the time it was sold !

The scope is a Bushnell Banner 1.5-6x with a lighted dot . Called a "Lite - Site" . The scope was made in 1988 and was retail at about $150 .

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Wed Jul 15, 2009 4:25 pm

Keep the .444 stories coming - my poor 'little' .444's have to constantly live in the shadow of their bigger .45-70 brothers, and the stories cheer them up...

6pt-sika · Post by **6pt-sika** » Wed Jul 15, 2009 10:27 pm

AJMD429 wrote:Keep the .444 stories coming.

Lets see how my modified Ranch Dog style bullets in 375 and 400 grains come along !

It is my intention to get the 375 grainer shooting in the old slow twist Micro barrels and use the 400 grainer in the more recent manufacture ballard fast twist barrels .

Now all I need to do is figure out a way that the isn't so expensive for "SwedeNelson" or myself in the manufacturing process !

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Thu Jul 16, 2009 6:30 am

6pt-sika wrote:It is my intention to get the 375 grainer shooting in the old slow twist Micro barrels and use the 400 grainer in the more recent manufacture ballard fast twist barrels .

Maybe someday I'll get that Ruger No.1 in .444 Marlin I dream about, and can load them really long...

(...of course I could 'settle' for a Handi-rifle or Encore barrel...)

6pt-sika · Post by **6pt-sika** » Fri Jul 17, 2009 6:54 am

Ordered three new molds yesterday !

Well actually two are versions of the Ranch Dog 432-350GC . Ones a 5 cavity to speed up my production and the others a single cavity HP mold of the 432-350 . Both these are coming from "SwedeNelson" on Castboolits .

Also bought the last of the overrun molds "Mihec" on Castbbolits made for the 432-300GC with a HP .

I suppose when I die someone will be looking thru my junk and if they're a gun person they'll say why did this idiot have so many 44/444 molds

All I can say is everyone has a weakness

6pt-sika · Post by **6pt-sika** » Mon Jul 20, 2009 4:40 pm

AJMD429 wrote:
6pt-sika wrote: 1 - Remington 32 over and under
We want to see PICTURES of that...!

Well the wood is done on the 32 but Brownell's is dragging their feet getting mt recoil pad here and we need to decide on a grip cap !

I think I'm gonna take a picture of the gun sans pad and cap tommorrow !

Now for the news !

The same guy that had this 32 has another 32 also a skeet grade gun with 26" solid ribbed barrels that needs a blueing job and stockwork . This one has a good bit of pitting on the outside of the barrels that will need to be buffed out somewhat . And the stock will need an extra 1/4-1/2 " spacer with a pad to make my length of pull ! But I think I've made a deal for that one and and additional set of 30" barrels bored full and FULLER . The barrels on my almost finished one have no rib and neither do the 30" ones !

The great thing is by the time I'm finished with the whole mess I'll have maybe $1250 tied up in it all

Not bad for a pair of over unders and an extra set of barrels .

Incidently the one thats about finished was made in 1937 and this other one was made in 1935 numbers match on both guns meaning frame , forend iron , barrels and stocks are all matching numbers . And the aditional barrel has never been numbered .