Help with modern 50-110 data.

[LeverGunner]

I have a friend that is getting a Winchester 1886 done up by Turnbull in 50-110. It's a Miroku made receiver and will have a 1:20 twist barrel.

This is the bullets that he'll most likely be using to start which is what Turnbull tests their guns with. So really it's going to be closer to a 50-110-450, but I digress... it's a big'un. https://www.montanabulletworks.com/prod ... gr-lfn-gc/

His most suitable powders are probably IMR4198 and Accurate 5744. He also has a smattering of pistol powders such as Unique, titegroup, bullseye.

I know that Unique could possibly make a reduced/mild load.

We have Accurates data for the 5744, though it doesn't specify if a filler was used. Does anyone know if a filler is used as a rule with this powder or not?

We'd appreciate any help with data for the 4198 and unique as well as any other suggestions.

Thanks all.

[EG73]

Watching with interest.
That Leverguns50 YouTube channel I think shares load data but with patreons only?

[Bill in Oregon]

I have always been advised NOT to use a filler with 5744, as it was designed to be position insensitive. Never had an issue with it in everything from .577 Snider to .45-70. Good stuff.

[LeverGunner]

I have always been advised NOT to use a filler with 5744, as it was designed to be position insensitive. Never had an issue with it in everything from .577 Snider to .45-70. Good stuff.

Thank you. I've never used 5744 before, that is very useful information to use.

[Malamute]

Clyde Williamson in his book The Winchester Lever Legacy had loads with the 450 gr Barnes at around 1850 fps I believe, and used around 65 gr 3031 powder. He shot a moose and grizzly in BC, had complete penetration on both, end for end on the moose I believe, to include several trees behind one of them.

[vancelw]

We have Accurates data for the 5744, though it doesn't specify if a filler was used. Does anyone know if a filler is used as a rule with this powder or not?

If the data came from Accurate (or Western Arms or Hodgdon) it definitely does not intend for filler to be used.

I would not think that Unique would be a good candidate for a light load in such a large case, but I may be wrong.

Let me look through all my "obsolete " data and see what I can find for 50-110.

[JFE]

We don’t have 5744 available here but for reduced loads it’s probably an ideal candidate.

For really light loads Trailboss is ideal. I’ve worked up useful sub-sonic loads for my 50/90 which actually has a larger case capacity.

For full power loads I would suggest a slower powder, something like H-4895 or R-15.

It is a big case and I suggest using magnum primers as hangfires are not a lot of fun.

[LeverGunner]

Still on the hunt for data, or even just 50-110 information. It's pretty intresting.

[vancelw]

Sorry. I forgot to follow up.
I guess this is "modern" Copyright 2000. Almost a quarter-century ago (in case time is not rushing by too fast for you)

I'll look for more data when I get home.

[LeverGunner]

Sorry. I forgot to follow up.
I guess this is "modern" Copyright 2000. Almost a quarter-century ago (in case time is not rushing by too fast for you)

I'll look for more data when I get home.

Thanks for getting back to me on that. That's useful to us. Where did that data originally come from?

[KWK]

Venturino's Shooting Lever Guns of the Old West has 50-110-300 data. With an NEI cast bullet in a 2.75" cartridge (2.40" case), he used 40 gn 5744 for 1605 fps and 105 gn FFg for 1726 fps. Both speeds best the 1536 fps he gave for the factory rating. All speeds are for a 26" barrel.

[marlinman93]

I've used Unique in a number of old hyphenated cartridges, but I'd not even consider it in a case as large as .50-110 cartridge. I do love 4198 and would choose it over 5744 since 5744 is a double base powder, and 4198 isn't. I use 4198 in all of my large capacity cases and it's usually lower pressures than BP is.
I'd start conservative at around 23.0 grs. of 4198 and begin working up from there. I would guess you'll end up around 30 grs., but I start low always.

[vancelw]

Sorry. I forgot to follow up.
I guess this is "modern" Copyright 2000. Almost a quarter-century ago (in case time is not rushing by too fast for you)

I'll look for more data when I get home.

Thanks for getting back to me on that. That's useful to us. Where did that data originally come from?

Sorry. I thought I wrote that.
Accurate Powders #2
AA5744 (XMP5744)

[LeverGunner]

Thanks.

[GunnyMack]

The Double Gun Journal had many articles over the years of guys developing loads with 4198. I believe that the rule of thumb is 80% of orignal BP in grains is the starting load for 4198.
Dunno how valid this formula is but hopefully it helps?
Or is it 40%???? Now I've confused myself by trying to remember...

[Chaser]

Good post. Thanks for sharing.

I've thought about doing the same thing with my .45-70 mod '86, either .50-110 or .45-90.

[LeverGunner]

Well he did get the gun, and extrapolating out of Clyde "Snooky" Williamson's book The Winchester Lever Legacy, he starting with 3031.

We're still looking for any data we can get. Thanks all.

[vancelw]

Cartridges of the Word 4th

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[LeverGunner]

Cartridges of the Word 4th
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Thanks. I do happen to have a 5th edition with that same data.

[Rimfire McNutjob]

Do you know the length of that MBW bullet? They have the length on some of their pages but not all.

[veeman]

I love reading Snooky's book, he would have made a great gun writer. Thing I notice about his loads is that they are usually on the hot side. I don't see a need to have a load so hot as to go through a moose and several tree's behind it, that is just too punishing on the shoulder and the energy is going right through the animal, IMO.

[LeverGunner]

Do you know the length of that MBW bullet? They have the length on some of their pages but not all.

Yes sir, the bullet is .862 long with approximately .377 nose length.

[Eddie Southgate]

Never loaded .50-110 bur have used 5744 in .45-70 and never needed a wad or buffer .

[Bronco]

Since I have boo-coo 4895 I used it to work up 50-110 loads ! I have a 32" barrel on a Brownchester M71. I can get a 525 gr up to about 1950 FPS. I do not shoot that load often. If interested I could look up the data?

[LeverGunner]

Since I have boo-coo 4895 I used it to work up 50-110 loads ! I have a 32" barrel on a Brownchester M71. I can get a 525 gr up to about 1950 FPS. I do not shoot that load often. If interested I could look up the data?

Howdy, I am interested. Thank you kindly. In both the data and any info. Did you work with any other bullet weights? What was your starting charge, and did you use a filler with any of the charges?

[Irishtexan]

It is my understanding you never use a cardboard wad with smokeless powder, you can use it with black powder but not smokeless.

[Bronco]

Levergunner:

Sent you an email about the data !

Bronco

[Rimfire McNutjob]

If I use the 50-110 Win case length in QL (2.4") and a 109 grain water capacity (you'd have to measure yours to get a more accurate simulation) and I set that MBW bullet you specified (420gr @ 0.862") into it at an overall length of 2.75" and I set a target pressure of 24Kpsi with a 22" barrel length ...

I show that you'd need to load 54.1 grains of IMR 4198 (79.5% of case capacity) to get that pressure (24Kpsi) with a resulting muzzle velocity of 1826 fps.

I don't know you barrel length, actual case water capacity, or pressure target. In QL I set the 50-110's limit (Pmax) to 28Kpsi (same as SAAMI 45-70) ... but I targeted a lower 24Kpsi for the load. That modern 1886 is capable of more, but I assumed you weren't looking for any kind of max load. Just something reasonable to shoot.

[LeverGunner]

Thanks. That gives me something to go on. My buddy didn't necessary care for the recoil of the loads he fired. His bullets are too long to cycle when crimped in the crimp groove. Annoying, as Turnbull suggested this bullet to us.

I'd like to work a load up with titegroup. I've seen data for it in 45-70, and in 500 S&W.

Turnbull suggests a max pressure of 42,000-44,000 psi. With that being primarily due to the design of the action. Nice to know about where the ceiling is, though he doesn't want to work at that level due to recoil.

[Rimfire McNutjob]

See if you can get his actual case length and water capacity and I can see what TiteGroup looks like in it.

If the nose to crimp is 0.380" and the case is 2.4", then your COAL is 2.78"? That might be a bit long, given the nose width, to cycle well. I assumed 2.75" when I did the simulation.

Is he using a Lee collet FCD to crimp? Oddly, Lee shows that they can't make an FCD for the 50-100 Win because "no shell holder available" as the site says. But it's the same shell holder for 348 WCF.

[LeverGunner]

I appreciate the help, or at least the thought of help. Not much reason to run anything right now as he's going to discontinue the use of this bullet since his OAL is too long, and he can't get his rounds to cycle.

He's fired a few rounds single shot. I don't know what bullet he's going to try next. I don't think he has any currently.

His case length is 2.400 on a fired, sized case.

He's not a very experienced reloader, and I'm helping him from afar. Probably not much chance of a case capacity measurement right now. It's possible that I'll be able to get my hands on the rifle though and work loads up for him, with the bullets and powders he'll likely use.

If that happens then I very much would appreciate the offer of help in developing a titegroup load using quickloads.

[Rimfire McNutjob]

Yeah, even the LFN bullets in the LBT line have pretty wide meplats ... which is probably where he's hanging up. They have the WFN 350 grain with a 0.310" nose to crimp ... which would give him a 2.71" OAL. But that has an even wider meplat and may hang him up still even with the shorter OAL.

I can get away with a pretty long OAL in the 450 Alaskan only because I'm using long ogive narrower meplat bullets. Flat points, but much narrower than what he's looking at with the LBT stuff.

[LeverGunner]

Thank you. Yeah, I read that more ogive and less meplat is better, so I was somewhat surprised that Turnbull recommended this bullet. After further contact with Turnbull, their tune slightly changed from "This is the bullet we use" to "That's one of the bullets we use."