still confused about forend needed

[FLINT]

Hi all,

I finally got my numrich octagon 38-55 barrel installed on my receiver. I'm about 50% confident it won't blow up the first time I shoot it, but I've got a ways to go before I'm ready for that anyways.

First, I need to figure out exactly what I need for the forend, cap, tenon, etc. the more I read, the more confused I get. There's the pre 64 and post 64 forend cap. also, I think I need a forend in the neighborhood of 9+" in length. The distal end of the tenon dovetail on the underside of the barrel is 10" from the magazine tube recess in the receiver.

I want a 'half-mag' , so I think I need about a 12ish" tube, but that's the least confusing part.

If anyone can tell me, exact forend length needed and exactly which forend cap/tenon works best, please let me know

Thanks!

[BenT]

Get your forend cap and tenon first. Then put that on and take your forearm measurement. Pre or post 64 cap will work. The pre 64 has a screw on each side of the forend cap. The post 64 has one screw that goes all the way through. Some people were getting the forend cap from Uberti, used for their clones. I used a pre 64 cap on a post 64 receiver with my octagon 38-55 Numrich barrel. The forend wood measures 9 3/8 inches. This is the exposed wood length not what is recessed under the cap and receiver. So it will be closer to 9 5/8 over all length.

[FLINT]

Thanks! I'll do that.

I'll probably go with the pre-64 type since that's what you used and it works for sure.

[FLINT]

So, I bought a bunch of parts from Numrich and here's what I found.

I got a cap, tenon, cap screws, a magazine tube, tube cap, tube cap screw. came to over $100

and then totally failed at making any of it work.

The tenon didn't fit into the cap. so I filed the ends of the tenon down until it fit into the cap. ok.

then, the cap didn't even come close to fitting over the barrel. so I filed the inside edges of the cap WAY down, so they only a thin blade of steel was left on the sides. So, it fits over the barrel now.

then, tenon doesn't fit into dovetail on barrel, so I file that way down, finally get it to tap into the dovetail.

so now the tenon is in the barrel, and cap is on the tenon. great.

however, now the magazine tube, just slides in and out. is not remotely clamped down by the cap screws.

So, I file down the tenon some more. make it shorter, thinking then the screws would have to tighten the cap down onto the tube when tightened. negative. tube still slides around. I know that the mag tube cap screw is supposed to screw into a hole in the barrel, but my understanding is that's just supposed to keep the tube from sliding forward under recoil. that isn't meant to be the only thing holding the tube in place right? What am I missing?

So, now I've filed everything into oblivion and don't feel like I'm any farther ahead but $100 behind.

[black river smith]

Due a search engine search for 'Half magazine Winchester 1894' and look at all the images.

See this image. https://s3.amazonaws.com/mgm-content/si ... ri_640.jpg

The nose cap screws NEVER hold the magazine in place on any Winchester Rifle. Only on carbines does the forend band screw partially holds the magazine along with the forward barrel band screw.

If you are making a true half magazine then you need to cut in a magazine Ring. The magazine ring acts the same as on full length magazines. Both versions are the same attachment method.

If you are making a button magazine tube it is a 'totally different' method of holding the magazine in place. Cannot explain the method in words.

Just a comment you may have to buy all new parts after everything you did. It sounds like you Maybe bought the wrong model parts for the size of barrel you have. Or you maybe should be tapering the Numerich barrel to the same dimensions of an Original Winchester barrel, then fitting the parts.

I am no real expert here doing this but have taken my fair share of 'Rifles' apart. No offence with this next comment but..... I think you need to be doing a little more research and studying about what you want, before attacking this project.

While I too, would like to create a modern version of a 38-55 '94 it is more than my talents go. I have restocked an 1892 and can work parts into shape, your job sounds more demanding to me.

Good Luck!

[Griff]

It's been many years (1988), since I bought one of those Numrich barrels, but the cap I purchased from Numrich had to have the inside filed to fit over the barrel. My barrel is for a .30-30, but measures .850" across the flats from the breech to the muzzle, no taper whatsoever. Like the Commemorative series 94, it attaches with just one screw thru the cap, with no tenon just a hole thru the bottom of the barrel. The mag tube is only held in by the magazine cap screw.

[black river smith]

I stand corrected because I have only handed Originals, not the more modern models. I did not know that, thanks for that.

[FLINT]

Due a search engine search for 'Half magazine Winchester 1894' and look at all the images.

See this image. https://s3.amazonaws.com/mgm-content/si ... ri_640.jpg

Hmmm, That does not appear to be a winchester 1894.........

The nose cap screws NEVER hold the magazine in place on any Winchester Rifle. Only on carbines does the forend band screw partially holds the magazine along with the forward barrel band screw.

That's strange. I have a 1920's model 94 in 32-40 that has a half mag that is held in place by the nose cap.

I am no real expert here doing this but have taken my fair share of 'Rifles' apart. No offence with this next comment but..... I think you need to be doing a little more research and studying about what you want, before attacking this project.

That is literally the point of this thread. It's not possible for me to do any more rearch on this topic. I've read everything I could find about this specific project, but some details were still unclear to me, hence the existence of this thread. This thread is me asking for more information before "attacking this project". This is actually the second thread I've started on this topic . I started researching this project a year or so ago, but it ended up taking three years to get a smith to finally put the barrel on my receiver, so I was just able to start working on it. I bought the parts recommended to me by people who have competed this project.

[FLINT]

It's been many years (1988), since I bought one of those Numrich barrels, but the cap I purchased from Numrich had to have the inside filed to fit over the barrel. My barrel is for a .30-30, but measures .850" across the flats from the breech to the muzzle, no taper whatsoever. Like the Commemorative series 94, it attaches with just one screw thru the cap, with no tenon just a hole thru the bottom of the barrel. The mag tube is only held in by the magazine cap screw.

It's possible the've changed them over the years then. The barrel I received has a dovetail on the underside of the barrel for a tenon, not a hole.

I could switch to the post 64 style forearm cap that uses one screw, but the person who originally responded to this thread said he used a pre-64 cap, so I figured if it worked for his application, I'll go with that.

Maybe I should just wrap the magazine tube with some electrical tape or something to increase the diameter so the forend cap will squeeze down on it? Maybe I'll measure the diameter of the magazine tube I received from numrich vs. the ones on my other winchesters to see if I got a narrow tube somehow.

As I said above, I have an original pre war winchester rifle with the same length mag tube that is held on by the forend cap. I like the look of the tube length on that rifle, which is why I went with that length on this rifle.

[Pat C]

Pictures are always best advice on these aftermarket parts.
I have all of the original specifications Winchester used throughout rifle version if you Need.

[Griff]

As far as I know there's only one diameter magazine tube. I have spare tubes in button, half, ¾ and full lengths. Even a spare Marlin, they're all the same diameter with normal manufacturing tolerances. I have carbines, Trappers, and rifles from 1898 to the mid '30s and a few post '64s, some have tubes that're fairly stationary, but I can't think of one that doesn't have a little movement, even if I have to put fingers on it... Most will rotate a few degrees, others will move lengthwise, at least the amount of play around the mag tube cap screw. IMO, the mag tube being stationary is not important, as long as it stays in place under recoil. (I.e.: doesn't leave the gun)!I don't want anything so tight that it could put pressure on the barrel.

[FLINT]

I just measured the magazine tubes on my winchester rifles and the tube I got from numrich. The numrich tube is 0.637" and most of my winchesters are .643-.644, though one is .38 so it doesn't seem that far off. also, I had a spare .644 tube and tightened that all the way down in my forend cap and it was still loose.

So, it seems that the channel in the forend cap I got is maybe oversized? I'd hate to have to get another forend cap and file it down. It took quite a while to file this one down to size. Too bad numrich doesn't make parts to fit the barrels they sell......

I don't think I bought any "wrong" parts. I think they just aren't quite sized right (?).

Should I keep filing the tenon shorter until it squeezes down to the mag tube? the risk is going to be if I squeeze the cap down to much then the barrel channel of the cap won't fit over the barrel anymore and I can't file any more off of the cap as I just have a sliver left in that area.

PS, looking in my safe, it appears that the model 71 half magazine tube is also held in place by the forend cap.

[FLINT]

As far as I know there's only one diameter magazine tube. I have spare tubes in button, half, ¾ and full lengths. Even a spare Marlin, they're all the same diameter with normal manufacturing tolerances. I have carbines, Trappers, and rifles from 1898 to the mid '30s and a few post '64s, some have tubes that're fairly stationary, but I can't think of one that doesn't have a little movement, even if I have to put fingers on it... Most will rotate a few degrees, others will move lengthwise, at least the amount of play around the mag tube cap screw. IMO, the mag tube being stationary is not important, as long as it stays in place under recoil. (I.e.: doesn't leave the gun)!I don't want anything so tight that it could put pressure on the barrel.

yes, that's how the tubes on my other rifles are. However, they all have at least some friction at play restricting movement. When slid into this end cap, the tube has zero friction. like none at all. it just rattles around.

I don't have a forend yet as the person who did this job before recommended that I get the cap and tennon first and install them and then measure to see what length forend is needed. So that's where I'm at.

I don't think the wood forend will impart enough friction to the tube to keep it from rattling around do you think?

Sure, if I put it all together and drill a hole for the magazine end cap screw to sit in, the tube shouldn't fall out at least, but I again, I don't want it rattling around.

and I shouldn't drill the hole so shallow so that the tube cap screw bottoms out in the hole and puts pressure on the barrel right?

[Griff]

I'm not at home and can't measure the depth of the mag cap screw hole in any of my barrels, but... I'd adjust the length of the bottom shank on the screw to adjust how much is engaged in the barrel... Your barrel does have a hole near the muzzle for a full length tube, yes? Let that be the guide for the hole depth.

As for tube diameter, your follower falls thru the tube, right? If it doesn't that would be the 1st indicator you have the wrong diameter tube.

[Pat C]

The original Winchester 1894 magazine tube is .650" diameter outside and .565" inside diameter.

The rifle style forend is exactly 9 3/8" long from receiver face to back of nose cap .

The half mag end cap has the standard screw that passes through assembly and into shallow hole under barrel .

I can give the trunnion dovetail location if needed

[FLINT]

Thanks, yes, the follower fits in the tube.

the inside diameter of the forend cap is .650 when tightened onto the tenon. The diameter of my mag tube is .637, so it's loose. Maybe I'll go ahead and get a forend and put it all together and see how it seems.

maybe I could run a thin layer of silicone or something on the inside of the tube chanel/collar in the forend cap to keep the rattling down?

For some reason, rifle length octagon forends are hard to find. Numrich doesn't seem to have a single one - except one that fits the model 1866. anychance that one would fit? appears to be the correct length

https://www.gunpartscorp.com/products/2146670

[Pat C]

Why not buy the correct forend from Gunville or Precision Gunstocks?That magtube is not correct . It should be .650"
Homestead is best place for Winchester parts.

Plenty of original tubes on ebay .

Large cal 1892 and 1894 are same except lengths.

[FLINT]

Why not buy the correct forend from Gunville or Precision Gunstocks?

because I didn't know about them

looks like precision gunstocks has the right forend. octagon rifle post 64. little pricey but oh well.

Thanks

[Pat C]

There are several issues I see in this project .

To start the barrel is not made to Winchester specs as it is straight parallel sides . That's why you had to file forend cap wider.

And forend you buy may also have to be opened up too.

Originally Winchester octagon barrels are tapered the tennon holds the forend cap in place which intern holds wood.

The magazine tube is held by screw that passes through plug into shallow hole in barrel . There is also early style with lip that also fits into barrel.

Winchester 1873 forend cap is slightly larger as barrel is bigger and probably would have worked. There are several original button and 2 /3 mag tube assemblies on ebay now fir cheap spring, end plug,screw, tube $69-$79

Precision often sells seconds stock on ebay reasonable.
Sounds like you may be stuck since parts were modified.

[black river smith]

Flint,
It appears that I will have to look further into the 1894's builds. I only have originals from 1873 to 1892 and a replica 1876 in Rifle configurations. I only have a Winchester 1894 carbine- built in 1974.

I did not realize a drastic shift occurred in method construction.

I do apologize for the mistakes in comments above.

I did realize the picture was of an 1873 but I believed all half magazine rifles used magazine rings as the linked photo showed. My mistake in complete knowledge of all Winchesters variations.

[Pat C]

Here are a few pics of original 1894 octagon barrels

Location of tennon dovetail from shoulder to rear of dovetail

Width of barrel at breech

Width of barrel at tennon

Width inside of nose cap

The entire source of your troubles has been the non standard barrel . It also appears your magazine tube is not correct.

These post 64 commemorative parts I have know knowledge of spec wise either. Much easier to use original pre war parts and the specifications for them.

As I stated earlier there are two different original short 1894 magazine tube assemblies on Ebay now .A button mag and a 2/3 mag . Both have tubes,springs,plug,screw

1894 magazine tube is precisely .650" outside Diameter

[Pat C]

The standard barrels tapered at a rate of about .005 taper per inch.

[FLINT]

Thanks so much for all of the information.

Yes, I was aware from the beginning that the non-tapered barrel would create difficulties. That's why I tried to read as much from reports of people who have used these barrels before and also asked questions to those who've done it, to get the right parts to start with.

Good to know that the uberty '73 end caps are larger. That's the kind of info I was looking for in the beginning, but everyone who has done this conversion seems to have used different parts so.

The barrel was used because:

It was available (not a lot of 38-55 barrels available these days)
It was affordable (the available 38-55 barrels are usually 4x the price I paid for this numrich barrel)
It was new (most available 38-55 barrels are 100 years old and in poor shape due to black powder, age, etc, etc).
The bore diameter is .375 which eliminates the most common issue with shooting old or new 38-55 guns - which is trying to figure out what size bullets are needed to shoot well. I'd bet that this issue of 38-55 bore size and related issues is probably in the top 10 most common thread topics i've seen here over the years. a .375 bore diameter greatly simplifies the issue and also greatly increases the projectiles available.
It looks "different" (my safe is full of rifles that look very similar. I don't have a full length octagon barrel yet on a rifle, so this gun was a perfect candidate).

So, yes, I know the non taper is the source of the issues, but knowing that many people have still put together rifles with them, I'm sure it's possible.

It appears that my main problem at this point is my undersized magazine tube. I'll get a new one and a forend and put it together and see where I'm at.

Thanks for the help!

[Pat C]

Winchester 1873 barrel is just slightly larger across flats and nose caps are too match . So that is an option

[Rube Burrows]

I have a Model 94 post 64 that started life as a carbine. I used the Numrich barrel which does not taper and ended up going with a Uberti rifle length front handguard. I don't remember which magazine hanger I went with but I boogered up the dovetail a little and had to get creative with some JB weld on the mag hanger. That said, I have been very pleased with the way the rifle turned out and its a great shooter. Even if it is pretty heavy with that non tapered barrel.

[Rube Burrows]

Here are a couple more photos.

The one photo is the carbine when I first got it. I got it as a bunch of parts in a box with the barreled action.

[Grizz]

That rifle is beautiful. Love the octagonal barrel and the straight grip. Good job on that one.

[Griff]

Rube is absolutely correct about the weight of the rifle with the untapered octagon bbl from Numrich. If you look up "muzzle heavy" in the dictionary, you should find this picture:

Custom 94.JPG

Besides the CCH'd receiver & nose cap, I added just a little extra "bling" to mine.

DSCN1425.JPG