Ivermectin Musings....

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Re: Ivermectin Musings....

Post by KWK »

None of the 3 RNA vaccines in the US replicate. The infection from these vaccines is limited to what is injected. Covid makes new copies of itself to infect more cells and to spread to other people.
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Re: Ivermectin Musings....

Post by Tycer »

KWK wrote:
Mon Sep 20, 2021 10:00 am
None of the 3 RNA vaccines in the US replicate. The infection from these vaccines is limited to what is injected. Covid makes new copies of itself to infect more cells and to spread to other people.
Through transcription, the mRNA replicates spike proteins in the cytoplasm. The Jansson DNA cleaves to mRNA to replicate spike proteins in the cytoplasm. Our bodies become spike replicating factories.
From https://www.modernatx.com/mrna-technolo ... technology:
Through a process known as transcription, an RNA copy of a DNA sequence for creating a given protein is made.
This copy – mRNA – travels from the nucleus of the cell to the part of the cell known as the cytoplasm, which houses ribosomes. Ribosomes are complex machinery in the cells that are responsible for making proteins.
Then, through another process known as translation, ribosomes ‘read’ the mRNA, and follow the instructions, creating the protein step by step.
The cell then expresses the protein and it, in turn, carries out its designated function in the cell or the body.
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Re: Ivermectin Musings....

Post by KWK »

We're not talking about the same replication. Yes, one's cells produce copies of the spike protein off the mRNA inserted as the vaccine. With the actual virus, the cell is tricked into making new copies of the entire virus (not just the spike), so that the virus can go on to infect new cells and be broadcast to other people.
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Re: Ivermectin Musings....

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KWK wrote:
Mon Sep 20, 2021 11:29 am
We're not talking about the same replication. Yes, one's cells produce copies of the spike protein off the mRNA inserted as the vaccine. With the actual virus, the cell is tricked into making new copies of the entire virus (not just the spike), so that the virus can go on to infect new cells and be broadcast to other people in order that their immune system has broad immunity to all parts of the virus rather than only immunity to a single protein that is no longer found in the wild.
Exactly. And I added my thoughts to your last sentence.
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Re: Ivermectin Musings....

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Unfortunately, while preferable, trying to acquire that "broad immunity" has proven fatal to many.

While the exact target protein may no longer be found much in the wild, it's close enough to prep the immune system to mount a quick enough defense against delta to greatly reduce the risk of death. Didn't I read, though, that neither Moderna nor Pfizer ever made an exact analog of the protein? Regardless, given the mutation rate of viruses, I wouldn't be surprised if our immune system is equipped to deal with a morphing target protein, by ever morphing it's own neutralizing agents.

While the Israelis recently concluded the death rate in the vaccinated is a tenth of that in those without it, I will say the recent surge in deaths in the US seems higher than it should be if that is so. I haven't taken the time to look for a breakdown in the numbers across all age groups, though.
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Re: Ivermectin Musings....

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KWK wrote:
Mon Sep 20, 2021 2:30 pm
Unfortunately, while preferable, trying to acquire that "broad immunity" has proven fatal to many.
Yep. The data suggests to me that the NO TREATMENT FOR YOU!! policy our countries’ managers have inculcated has had a hand in that.

Individual medical practitioners, hospitals, counties, states and entire countries have shown great success using a plethora of multi drug/nutrient cocktails.

Our ‘pope’ seems to be playing from his AZT playbook with the death rate much higher along with his power.
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Re: Ivermectin Musings....

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One can find on the NIH site many of the small tests from overseas for ivermectin. The official NIH position, about a half year old, is that none of these tests are definitive. The bureaucrats will not be moving until a large, well controlled test is done. The closest one I've found, a recent one in Brazil, didn't find ivermectin particularly effective, so the CDC will not be moving on that any time soon. You'd think, given all the rancor over ivermectin, the fools would just go ahead and fund a proper study, but I'm sure there is some bureaucratic snafu against that as well.

You mentioned "hospitals, counties, states" have sidestepped the FDA rules and tried ivermectin. Have any of them published their findings? Did they compare with placebos?
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Re: Ivermectin Musings....

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KWK wrote:
Mon Sep 20, 2021 6:47 pm
You mentioned "hospitals, counties, states" have sidestepped the FDA rules and tried ivermectin. Have any of them published their findings? Did they compare with placebos?
What is a placebo during a pandemic?
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Re: Ivermectin Musings....

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The same thing they did with the vaccines. Half the people, selected at random, get the drug under test and have get salt water. It's really the only way to know if the drug has an effect.
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Re: Ivermectin Musings....

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KWK wrote:
Mon Sep 20, 2021 6:47 pm
ell.

You mentioned "hospitals, counties, states" have sidestepped the FDA rules and tried ivermectin.?
You seem to be getting hung up on IVM. You infer that my comments refer to clinical studies. Neither are exclusive. There are many treatments that are working in various settings. Why does a doctor like Jackie Stone in Zimbabwe give a flying fanny about a study if her hospital is not full of COVID-19 patients? Heck, she’s using nebbulized silver for effs sake. Zelenko in NYC wish a gigantic Hasidic Jew population using HCQ+Zinc+Azith+…
This new “can’t be trusted unless it’s a giant double triple blind placebo controlled hundred million dollar study” horse hockey is anathema to actual front line doctors saving patients by effing doctoring. Check your history. Doctors doctor. Pope F makes bank and hasn’t treated a patient one with COVID-19.
McCullough, Bush, Lowery, Korey, Stone, Raoult, Chamez,…

https://covid19criticalcare.com/network ... -alliance/
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Re: Ivermectin Musings....

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KWK wrote:
Mon Sep 20, 2021 7:50 pm
The same thing they did with the vaccines. Half the people, selected at random, get the drug under test and have get salt water. It's really the only way to know if the drug has an effect.
ZERO of those groups were challenged by the virus.
If you think it’s appropriate to challenge them thusly with SARS-CoV-2 that’s murder and I’ve got no further time for you.
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Re: Ivermectin Musings....

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Tycer wrote:
Mon Sep 20, 2021 8:08 pm
If you think it’s appropriate to challenge them thusly with SARS-CoV-2 that’s murder and I’ve got no further time for you.
You can bring your charge of murder to the authorities in the UK. They have been doing challenge studies with covid for months now. Of course, the fact there are no bodies so far may make it difficult for you to get the charges to stick.
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Re: Ivermectin Musings....

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Screenshot (7149).png
looks murderous to me
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Re: Ivermectin Musings....

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That number may well be correct, but why would it confuse you?

The vaccinated are mostly in the older population. Before the vaccine, their risk of death was about 100 times that of a young adult. With the vaccine, it's down to only 10 times as likely to die as an unvaccinated young adult, but that still means they do most of the dying.
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Re: Ivermectin Musings....

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KWK wrote:
Mon Sep 20, 2021 2:30 pm
Unfortunately, while preferable, trying to acquire that "broad immunity" has proven fatal to many.
The thing that gets me is why the same people who insist the rest of us not be allowed to have infection-induced immunity, but must take their vaccine, are the SAME ones who censor any information about treatment, and try to use the force of government to threaten and punish those who say anything positive about fluvoxamine, cyproheptadine, ivermectin, or hydroxychloroquine.

That makes me skeptical of their intent.
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Re: Ivermectin Musings....

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AJMD429 wrote:
Tue Sep 21, 2021 5:53 am
... censor any information about treatment, and try to use the force of government to threaten and punish those who say anything positive about fluvoxamine, cyproheptadine, ivermectin, or hydroxychloroquine.
The censorship is mostly in the main stream press. Both NIH.gov and ClinicalTrials.gov have summaries of many of the reports from overseas cited by the FLCCC. The official NIH position (from February) is that no definitive trial on ivermectin has been done, so they are neutral on it. The FDA bureaucrats will be the really picky ones.

Currently, the Medical University of South Carolina, working with Duke, is running trials on ivermectin, fluticasone, and fluvoxamine. Hopefully they will produce a study of the quality the bureaucrats want.
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Re: Ivermectin Musings....

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Yeah. A friend sent me a copy of a letter he got from his state (medical) licensing board; they said something along the lines that "physicians prescribing medications off-label for CoVid that are not considered safe or effective are putting their licensure at risk" - gotta love that kind of intimidation - it just gives you so much faith in their integrity... :roll: But dey be da bosses... :|
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Re: Ivermectin Musings....

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KWK wrote:
Tue Sep 21, 2021 12:53 pm

Currently, the Medical University of South Carolina, working with Duke, is running trials on ivermectin, fluticasone, and fluvoxamine. Hopefully they will produce a study of the quality the bureaucrats want.
Yeah. They announced that a year ago. Expected completion 2023… yawn…so very happy that they’re putting the rush on.
https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT04885530
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Re: Ivermectin Musings....

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Tycer wrote:
Tue Sep 21, 2021 2:18 pm
They announced that a year ago. Expected completion 2023…
I didn't find anything earlier than 4 months ago from MUSC, and that's the date in their listing at ClinicalTrials.gov. Data collection on some of the drugs under consideration began 3 months ago, and ivermectin in particular began just weeks ago. Data collection on the last of the drugs to be tested is expected to finish a little over a year from now.

I see the University of Minnesota Medical School began testing of ivermectin back in May. A private foundation is supplying the funds, so it's not a huge study. Expected completion date is yet this year. In one news article, the researchers note an impetus is the fact the current vaccines may not prove effective against future virus mutations.

ClinicalTrials.gov shows 4 other trials being started in the US to study ivermectin on Covid.

It seems the wheels of bureaucracy are slowly grinding along...
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Re: Ivermectin Musings....

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I don't know why we would need more medical studies. A year and a half into this Covid thing we have whole countries around the world and whole states in India with huge populations that have tried various different strategies and it sounds like some of the strategies have worked well. The countries still struggling with Covid seem to be the ones insisting that the vaccine be the only treatment, with the good old "land of the free" being the biggest of the dummies. If I were running the NIH i'd gather up the team and send folks off to those areas we hear about where Covid seems pretty much defeated. Then if those areas really have had such success just copy their strategy here. The vaccine is "leaky" enough that it appears like it is going to take an awful long time to get the job done with vaccines alone.
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Re: Ivermectin Musings....

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Which countries and which states in India are those?

The last article I read on India (Wall St Jnl, 7/21, "India’s Covid-19 Death Toll Is Likely in the Millions, Study Finds") quoted Indian researchers as saying the death toll there is about 10 times the official numbers. Much of the rural country has poor medical data gathering. The researchers looked at burials instead to come up with their estimates. Blood tests backed up the true extent of infections.

There was on these forums a comment a while back that one city in India used ivermectin to stop covid and compared it to another city there. No one could tell me how the ivermectin had been distributed, but I did find the city that stopped covid was the one that had locked down hard at that time.

If nothing else, these US studies, if done with care, will leave the FDA little choice but to approve ivermectin and the others for treatment. Of course, these studies could show all those poorly organized, small data set trials overseas were just a fluke, and that ivermectin really isn't all that effective. My guess is they will show what the recent Brazilian study did, that ivermectin has a mildly positive effect.
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Re: Ivermectin Musings....

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I wonder what your point actually is Sir... to say that ivermectin is mildly effective suggests what? you can fill in the blanks ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------,

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Re: Ivermectin Musings....

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Some would have you believe it will prevent 100% of deaths from the infection. I doubt that. My guess is it might help some recover quicker but that many people will still progress to hospitalization and death. Of course, that's true for 10% of the people vaccinated. Will ivermectin do better than 10%? I doubt it will be anywhere near as good. Hopefully there will be a clearer picture in a few months.

Of course, the FLCCC have a cocktail they recommend, and the trials I've seen are only testing the components separately, so we still won't have a definitive answer. It is possible there is a synergistic effect in the cocktail. Actually, one of the trials in progress is testing a few pairs of drugs.
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Re: Ivermectin Musings....

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Dr Zelenko, who understands the disease, and uses HCQ with other stuff, has an 85% success rate with the ones who stayed home and stayed on the plan.

As he points out, that means that 510,000 Americans died needlessly, because those people were denied life saving medicines. That amounts to murder in my book.

How would you characterize it?
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Re: Ivermectin Musings....

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That would be quite good, if true, and nearly as good as the vaccines. Has he presented his findings to the FDA? Published in Lancet or the like? Has no one followed in his steps? Has he asked private organizations, such as the one funding the U MN trial on ivermectin, to fund trials of his cocktail?

Is it murder if other doctors aren't aware of his success? Is it murder if bureaucrats do what bureaucrats always do, and want to play by their rules? Incompetence is grossly underrated.
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Re: Ivermectin Musings....

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.

I don't know if I posted this comment before here, but over the past couple months I've treated around 60 or so acute CoVid patients. About half got their 'cocktail' quickly, due to patient motivation, serendipity, and our helping them surmount insurance and logistic hurdles, and the other half did not. This Delta Variant is pretty aggressive, and I think about 8 or 9 of the 60 patients wound up in the hospital, with severe symptoms, and 'long-haul' symptoms manifesting now. One of maybe four who wound up on a ventilator had a massive stroke.

Of the patients who got meds promptly - none got severely ill, and none were hospitalized.
Of the patients whose meds were delayed - most got severely ill, and about a third were hospitalized.

Also - although I'll have to go through their charts sometime to collect the data (not sure why other than my own curiosity - nobody will 'believe' it or if they do they will say 'not enough for statistical significance), but about a third of these patients overall were vaccinated. About a third of the population of our state has been vaccinated, so it really doesn't appear the vaccine is very effective against the current viral strain(s).

My question to the anti-ivermectin, anti-fluvoxamine, anti-cyproheptadine, anti-nasal-lavage, anti-everything-but-masks-and-vaccines-and-lockdown crowd, is.....

How, with the experience I've had recently, where prompt application of the medications I've been using appears to reduce severity of illness and hospitalization so greatly, could I in good conscience just tell patients "I don't have good evidence these drugs work, so I am no longer going to prescribe them...?" :shock: :?

If the young guy who stroked so bad he will need total care until he dies had a brother come in with CoVid, I could either:

a) make sure he gets the same 'cocktail' immediately,
b) give him the same 'cocktail', but tell him it's ok to delay 4-5 days because it's not that big a deal, or
c) just tell him there's no "approved" treatment and to go to the E.R. when he can no longer breathe.

The anti-ivermectin crowd wants me to choose "c" and I just don't think I can morally or ethically or professionally do that.
Last edited by AJMD429 on Wed Sep 22, 2021 9:01 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Ivermectin Musings....

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I'll start off saying I'm not against doctors going off label. Actually, I thought they were permitted to, but one of your earlier posts in this thread says otherwise. Aren't certain classes of pharmacies permitted to go off label?

Obvious questions come to mind. Are the two halves of the sample set similar in initial health, age, motivation, etc? Are you able to sort out which in the cocktail is the main driver? I could go on, but you are aware what a trial involves, and bureaucrats aren't going anywhere without such data to cover their butts. The ponderous way bureaucrats work has pluses and minuses. History shows individual doctors will hit on a solution.

In the case of early covid intervention, such as you have been practicing, is there any accepted treatment? If not, would someone like you ever be punished for trying a cocktail of drugs each known to be safe? One could see the bureaucrats (and ambulence chasers) complaining if a doc tries an unproven technique in place of a proven one, but what if no proven one exists?
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Re: Ivermectin Musings....

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Yawn. Sweet dreams troll. You’ve been presented with enough data and you keep needing on the finery. Don’t arrogant idiot your finger. Now. Where’s that ignore button . . .
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Re: Ivermectin Musings....

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Tycer wrote:
Wed Sep 22, 2021 9:10 pm
Yawn. Sweet dreams troll. You’ve been presented with enough data and you keep needing on the finery. Don’t arrogant idiot your finger. Now. Where’s that ignore button . . .
Ha! arrogant idiot = stick yourself with that needle. Censorship leverguns style. PR!CK
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Re: Ivermectin Musings....

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Oh, you wound me greatly!

Troll? More like devil's advocate.
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Post by AJMD429 »

.

Troll, Devil's Advocate, or just 'skeptic' - I don't take it personally. Some people are from Missouri, and you have to show them LOTS of things to convince them of anything. That's ok (as long as they aren't the one in charge of a bureaucracy).

I know the bureaucrats and regulatory agencies and hospital formulary committees and even medical licensing boards ALL have 'agendas' - primarily follow the dollar signs and they become clear. They are going to oppose ANYTHING other than whatever Big Pharma stuff promises to result in their getting a piece of the action. Docs like me don't have an 'agenda' other than helping patients. I'd make more money if I just told the patients what the ER's and Urgent Care clinics tell them - "just go home, mask-up, and quarantine, and when you have trouble breathing, go to the hospital for some remdesivir..." I'd also stay off the bureaucrat's radar if I did that.

But I can't ethically do that. I absolutely realize that there is a lack of statistical punch to what I'm observing, but if I see three people walk across a particular spot in a meadow and two of the three start gyrating and running and wind up with stingers and welts on their legs, I absolutely do NOT have 'statistically sound evidence' that there is a yellow-jacket nest over there, but I'm STILL not going to go there.

There will be no 'accepted' Rx other than Big Pharma's vaccines and whatever 'therapeutics' they eventually come out with, if 'accepted' means by the regulators and hospitals. If you mean 'accepted' by high-quality physicians who know their pharmacology, the FLCCC protocol and ones like it are already there. The detractors can cherry-pick a few 'bad' studies, but they ignore the solid ones, or condemn them on grounds that sound like serious issues to the statistically, medically, and pharmacologically untrained, but are mostly silly, and in a few cases are actually 'positives' not 'negatives'.

I'm not inclined to feel obligated to re-litigate the whole case for and against these regimens here, or anywhere else (though I will participate in 'lively discussions' on the topic), because if someone isn't motivated enough to do their OWN research, I'm not going to waste my time doing it all again and writing it up like a school-kid submitting a 'report', and if they ARE motivated enough to do their own research, either they will just read stuff they agree with, or 'summaries', OR they will read it all and dive to the primary-literature level instead of just reading someone else's 'analysis' or 'summary'. If they choose the latter, they will likely wind up agreeing with me, and if they choose the former, they are biased enough they wouldn't read my 'summary' anyway, and I've already said it is better to read the primary literature yourself ideally anyway. Some of it is obscure, hard to find, and written at a level that requires the two degrees it took me 13 years to earn to really take it in, so I guess to some extent most will have to rely on SOMEONE to rake through the coals for the nuggets, but I'll leave that to better minds and better writers than me.

The more the only-do-vaccines-masks-and-shutdowns crowd censors and distorts or outright fabricates 'facts', the more they become like the gun-control advocates Don Kates so thoroughly castigates in his law review journal article on that topic for the same reasons, and the less I can respect anything they come up with.

Kates says: "...unfortunately, CDC and other health advocate sages build their case not only by suppressing facts, but by overt fraud, fabricating statistics, and falsifying references to support them. The following are but a few of the many examples documented in a recent paper co-authored by professors at Columbia Medical School and Rutgers University Law School..."
(https://guncite.com/journals/tennmed.html)

That's pretty much the same thing you could say now about "the CDC and other health advocate sages" - some things haven't changed since the 1980's article on gun control...
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Re: Ivermectin Musings....

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Well said AJMD429 !!
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Re: Ivermectin Musings....

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KWK wrote:
Wed Sep 22, 2021 3:37 pm
Which countries and which states in India are those?
I had read this a few days ago and thought "wow! let's follow their lead" https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2021/0 ... vermectin/ I'm guessing " The Gateway Pundit" doesn't have a lot of street creds with anybody to the left of ... say Chris Christy? So it would be nice if some credible folks went over to Uttar-Pradesh to check out their strategy. If the Gateway Pundit article is even close to correct we'd want to jump on their Covid-fighting strategy ourselves because that sounds like vastly better results than we are getting.

Also a while back I was reading some Covid article with following comments and a fellow from Bangladesh commented that back in his country they had very little health care facility but kept Covid from being a big deal because everybody had access to Ivermectin. But -- would you believe?-- I can find statistics for Covid in Bangladesh (in a country barely the size of Michigan but with a population half of the US, they have had about 5% of our death rate from Covid) but the only thing I find out about their method is that some group of American doctors went over and tried teaching folks how to wear masks and social distance to comply with their Bangladeshi Government's mandates. And Australians helped set up some hand washing stations in a crowded refugee camp. I can't find any news coverage of their medical strategy for keeping Covid at bay. Their cases/death statistical graphs show several steep climbs in numbers but then are followed by rapid drops in those numbers: the latest and biggest started in early July and was dropping precipitously by the middle of August. Like I say, If I was a big cheese in the health field I'd sure like to know how Bangladesh is doing it so I could introduce their strategy here.

Similar stories about Mexico (or at least parts thereof) using a "kit" containing a couple of the 12mg Ivermectin tabs, some zinc tabs and an antibiotic to knock back their surges. But again I find no follow-up by a credible news or medical investigative reporter.
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Re: Ivermectin Musings....

Post by KWK »

I absolutely realize that there is a lack of statistical punch to what I'm observing...
And I absolutely realize that your observations shouldn't be discarded. I'm quite aware that advances in medicine are often made by one doctor's hunch, such as the fellow who showed that common ulcers can be treated with common antibiotics.

Tycer's eloquence got me reflecting about what I've learned here and the time I spent trying to verify the claims.

1) The earliest FLCCC comments took me to their site where I looked over their paper and then on to several of their references. These references were clearly not going to sway the FDA, with subjects not selected at random, and in each paired with different drugs. Perhaps I just got unlucky with their references I chose to follow. I did make a mental note that though sloppy, there was a trend in favor of ivermectin (the topic of this thread).

2) The masking argument about 18 months ago was presented here with a link to a video by some gal named Merritt or the like. I actually sat through the lengthy presentation where I learned that while masks let covid laced droplets zip right through, you must be careful about heart attacks since masks can hold carbon dioxide back, leading to oxygen deprivation. Never mind that CO2 molecules are a tiny fraction of the size of covid droplets. I spent two hours searching for trials on masking. I eventually settled on the literature search done many years ago in response to SARS-1, which concluded most older trials data was poorly done, but that the preponderance of evidence was in favor of masks.

3) I read that town A in India has defeated covid with ivermectin while Indian town B that didn't suffered. I couldn't find a single Indian news site describing how the ivermectin was so widely distributed in A. I did find that A (was it Mumbai?) had locked down hard when B didn't.

4) I am told that vaccines are worthless because more vaccinated people are dying of covid today than unvaccinated. I looked at the published relative death rates across age groups along with vaccination rates among age groups and with a little grade school math figured out that one would indeed expect deaths among the vaccinated will be higher.

5) I hear there is a cover up on ivermectin, and censorship too! Yet I find there are a half dozen US trials in progress testing the various components in the FLCCC cocktail. I realize that's not the same as testing the full monty, but I find it hard to square with claims of censorship.

6) AJMD has given some descriptions of why the elements in the FLCCC cocktail might prove effective, so I've held hope that trials of the individual drugs would prove so and have periodically looked for such trial results. They are starting to come in, and while ivermectin hasn't made a great showing, the statistics go with that trend I noted over a year ago, showing some benefit. (I also note the mainstream press trumpets the recent Brazilian study as proving ivermectin is a deluded fantasy of the Trump crowd, when in fact the results were slightly in ivermectin's favor.)

Such is why I'm skeptical of claims I read in these forums. I see lurid cries of "murder" and "collusion" bandied about when a more reasonable answer is the ponderous incompetence inherent in most bureaucracies. "This is a high-class place so act respectable."

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Re: Ivermectin Musings....

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earlmck wrote:
Thu Sep 23, 2021 11:13 am
... Covid in Bangladesh... they have had about 5% of our death rate from Covid... but the only thing I find out about their method...
I find 8% as the official rate, but I'll note India's official rate is 15% of the US yet researchers there have concluded the actual death rate is about 10 times higher than the official Indian numbers, due to the fact their medical system isn't equipped to diagnose and track covid throughout the country. Bangladesh is even poorer than India, so I'd wager there's a similar story.

The NIH has a report of a small ivermectin trial done by a Bangladesh hospital. As I read it, they concluded it didn't make a dramatic difference, but that a larger trial is warranted. It's yet another indicator ivermectin is of some use.
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Re: Ivermectin Musings....

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KWK wrote:
Wed Sep 22, 2021 10:26 pm
Oh, you wound me greatly!

Troll? More like devil's advocate.
now we're getting somewhere. oh the irony of it! :lol: . :lol: . :roll:
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Re: Ivermectin Musings....

Post by rickt300 »

Good stuff, here is a serious link on all things Ivermectin, CCP virus, Hydroxychloroquin and other things.

https://www.covid-19forum.org/index.php?topic=461.0
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Re: Ivermectin Musings....

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KWK wrote:
Thu Sep 23, 2021 2:41 pm
earlmck wrote:
Thu Sep 23, 2021 11:13 am
... Covid in Bangladesh... they have had about 5% of our death rate from Covid... but the only thing I find out about their method...
I find 8% as the official rate, but I'll note India's official rate is 15% of the US yet researchers there have concluded the actual death rate is about 10 times higher than the official Indian numbers, due to the fact their medical system isn't equipped to diagnose and track covid throughout the country. Bangladesh is even poorer than India, so I'd wager there's a similar story.

The NIH has a report of a small ivermectin trial done by a Bangladesh hospital. As I read it, they concluded it didn't make a dramatic difference, but that a larger trial is warranted. It's yet another indicator ivermectin is of some use.
NIH! Get a grip. Fauci funneled money through the NIH to fund the gain of function studies at the Wuhan Institute. Nothing the NIH does or says is credible.
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Re: Ivermectin Musings....

Post by AJMD429 »

.

Again look at money or motive - there are HUGE financial rewards at stake for producing the first or best cure or preventative. To 'win' that game you can either produce a superior/cheaper product, or bribe/lobby people, or sabotage/defame the competitors. The first is time consuming and difficult, do the latter become tempting...AND are the easiest to do in a highly-government-regulated industry like health care, where the capitalist free market is not able to operate to channel 'greed' into the 'greater good'; instead socialism as usual turns greed into cronyism and uses bureaucracy to favor the well-connected and wealthy over the innovative and hard-working.

On the other hand, few advocates of ivermectin or carageenan or cyproheptadine or eucalyptus nasal irrigation or fluvoxone have ANY reason to lie based on financial gain.

Certainly not to the extent of the hundreds of billions of dollars the pharmaceutical industry has at risk right now.
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Re: Ivermectin Musings....

Post by AJMD429 »

.

I know these guys aren't "credible" to some, in contrast to our bureaucrat leaders, but I've found them far less flawed and far less inaccurate than any other CoVid information source.

https://odysee.com/@FrontlineCovid19Cri ... 21_MATH+:0

Indian Bar Association suing over misinformation - https://newsbred.com/article/indian-bod ... 9-pandemic - but notice they're NOT suing the FLCCC...

Japanese Medical Association endorses the use of ivermectin - https://rclutz.com/2021/08/19/greenligh ... -in-japan/

So clearly the medical community is starting to realize ivermectin works.

This goes into the money-trail - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bkcp04z8pE4

But the lies and distortion and threats go on and on - https://www.msn.com/en-us/health/medica ... ar-AAOGfca

And it isn’t just against Ivermectin. Pretty much anything that works is subject to censorship...

https://www.theblaze.com/op-ed/horowitz ... inst-covid

Watching all this unfold makes me better understand the insanity that started in Germany 100 years ago. You give people the ability to control others and many of them (a.k.a. the ‘socialists’ or ‘progressives’) will abuse that power. :evil:
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Re: Ivermectin Musings....

Post by Tycer »

AJMD429 wrote:
Fri Sep 24, 2021 6:02 am

Indian Bar Association suing over misinformation - https://newsbred.com/article/indian-bod ... 9-pandemic - but notice they're NOT suing the FLCCC...
If Swaminathan is found guilty the penalty can be death. Big penalty. Don’t murder your countrymen.
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Re: Ivermectin Musings....

Post by Grizz »

Karl, some links that might influence your thinking, or at least entertain you . . . . . ... .. .. .. . . .. .

https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.abg7586
Published in Lancet or the like?
The Lancet?

https://defyccc.com/anti-hcq-paper-in-t ... ated-data/

https://www.drugawareness.org/editor-of ... raudulent/

to the other questions, yes, there are thousands of doctors linked up in a network called frontline doctors. they have various strategies but they have in general, in their medical practices, saved thousands of lives.

these doctors have been consistently shut down, censored, harassed, threatened, sued, lied to, lied about, and kept off of the propaganda machinery of big pharma and big tech. to the extent that now, in order to get their information out they've taken to setting up websites that host podcasts, articles and videos to inform even someone like me. sample links:

https://americasfrontlinedoctors.org/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LkIKCbwBcLU >Dr Pierre Kory has saved lives with ivermectin.

https://vimeo.com/553518199

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HuMbRBTZhCY

https://stateofthenation.co/?p=60260 > Kennedy is very knowledgeable and is savaged by everyone, and censored

https://covid.daystar.com/ > many videos of others with lifesaving medical experience

https://childrenshealthdefense.org/defe ... ine-risks/


this material is not on cnn because cnn, etc., is publishing propaganda, misinformation, disinformation, and outrageous lies, and accusing the truth-tellers of their own wickedness.
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Re: Ivermectin Musings....

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AJMD429 wrote:
Fri Sep 24, 2021 6:02 am
Japanese Medical Association endorses the use of ivermectin[/url]

That report goes back to TrialSiteNews, which I've come across and seems to have headlines that don't accurately depict the underlying story, but I don't have a subscription so can't take a look. Regardless, it's reporting only the Tokyo Metropolitan head suggests ivermectin, not the national organization. The plot shown I've seen before. That peak in May coincided with hard lock downs in some regions, so if ivermectin was in large distribution, it would be difficult to determine the effects. Also, a Japanese news site a couple of days ago reported ivermectin hasn't been approved on the national level because early trials showed no benefit. As with many others places, they are running more trials, so they must have seen some positive.

Frankly, the only positive ivermectin data I trust is your observations with your recent patients, and you have been using more than ivermectin alone. Sadly, I haven't seen any report of an upcoming trial using the complete regimen you use.
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Re: Ivermectin Musings....

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The bottom line with all this is something called "confounding factors", which means that whenever you test something the only absolute proof of whether it is useful or not is to have it be the ONLY thing that is changed between two large groups of subjects.

That is simply not practical in many cases, and in the world of healthcare it is often extremely unethical because you wind up having one group condemned to a treatment regimen like 'placebo' that is known to cause excessive death.

That, coupled with the fact that nobody seems to be willing to pony up 50 million or so to just donate 'for the greater good' to see if something works means that the only individuals who are going to pony up that kind of money are individuals who have a potential profit if the results turn out the way they want.

Therefore you get drug companies involved that have products that they want to prove successful, and they can do very large studies that have all sorts of statistical validity, but have an underlying bias because they have an end result that can net them billions of dollars. The reality is that only patented medicines will ever be studied in a way that satisfied the so-called 'evidence-based' criteria used these days. :roll:

That verbal and statistical sleight of hand has infiltrated the medical world with nods of approval from academia and naive medical students all across the globe, because it sounds like a way to prove 'objectivity' and 'validity'. The opposite tends to be the case, because the only way a large-scale double-blind random placebo-controlled trial is going to be done is under the auspices of gigantic funding, which has to come from someone who is expecting a gigantic return, whether that be a government and its politicians through lobbying or other graft or discounts from purchased products, or industry itself.

So if people want to wait around for some sort of 'evidence-based' and 'statistically valid' proof on ivermectin, or any other thing, IT SIMPLY ISN'T GOING TO HAPPEN.

Many people are going to die as a result of that naive, if well-intended, waiting around for what will never happen. The real world is not clear-cut like that and in the real world people learn things the way I do and other doctors do through very small very 'confounded' observational data, and NOT through these magical large trials that people seem to be so obsessed with.

I see this as yet another instance of where the combination of large corporate interests and the progressive political left who they are in bed with, using emotion and clever verbage to fool the electorate into a path that generates huge revenues and power for them, at the cost of millions of human lives lost or impaired. I realize that most of the evil comes from the corporations and politicians, but to the extent that they pull in the average citizen using emotion and clever semantics and distortion of facts, those citizens also need to realize that by pushing back against things like ivermectin, they are essentially becoming an accessory to murder.
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Re: Ivermectin Musings....

Post by Tycer »

Taken from another forum forumite:

The framing: "If you know the outcome, you'll see the journey."

The Outcome:

- a centralized global tyranny, where a collection of scientists, technocrats, engineers, make decisions that dictate the fine details of people's lives without any public involvement at all.
- total surveillance
- social credit system
- elimination of independent income & small business results in dependence; dependence transfers control to central authority.
- transformation of the physical and psychological nature of the human being
- depopulation
- disconnection of humanity from the spiritual
weakened health

Operational thesis: they don't take no for an answer. If an agenda item has yet to be achieved, then no effort will be spared to bring this result about. Example: the reason for lockdowns is to destroy small business. If there are still small biz remaining - then more lockdowns will happen. Because - its an agenda item; in this case, total dependency on the state.

Once you know the desired outcome, it is easy to predict the events that will occur.

The cult:

- psychopathic. we are just vermin to them.
no borders, small group, globally interlocking
- fractal international organization - top down - same in all countries
- they hoard knowledge
- they've been operating in the shadows for a long time.
- they are now running a "for all the marbles" action plan.[my thought: this "plan" is why they absolutely had to get rid of the Bad Orange Man; he was not going to play along, nor was he compromised enough to control]

The mechanism:

- education system programs people for acquiescence at a young age
- the internet is used to centralize and then censor human communication
- Pharma created to maintain ill health - for profit, and engineered weakness
- the cult understands how the human psyche works
but in truth, their only power is that which we cede to them

The answer:

Don't acquiesce.
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Re: Ivermectin Musings....

Post by AJMD429 »

.

Tycer, you nailed it and that describes the Big Picture well.

Here's more on the suppression of CoVid therapies - https://odysee.com/@InfinityFoundation: ... hohiding:c
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Re: Ivermectin Musings....

Post by earlmck »

Blaine wrote:
Tue Feb 16, 2021 3:08 pm
I have my three tubes of the stuff, and I was thinking ( :o )
Since Covid is a virus, and it seems to work on it pretty good...
Would it work on the cold virus?
One of the actions of Ivermectin is to boost the ability of zinc to do its job of virus-killing. And zinc lozenges have long been my main weapon to fight off a cold (take 'em at the first sign of a scratchy throat). So I'll bet Ivermectin with zinc would get 'er done on even those cold viruses that aren't the Covid style ones.

And along the Ivermectin front, I got a kick out of this Brit guy reporting on how India kicked their Covid habit (remember last Spring when India was in the news sounding like they were going to lose a billion or so people to the Covid?) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eO9cjy3Rydc . I especially like the segment where he shows the CDC praising the work India is doing to fight their Covid surge including the part where they are giving out free medical kits, but don't manage to tell the readers that these "kits" are based on Ivermectin.

He's a pro-vaxer but still manages to give honest reporting.
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Re: Ivermectin Musings....

Post by Grizz »

Blaine, I am low on iver, the price skyrocketed, and the availability is sinking.

I switched to Quercitin, which is a zinc ionophore like iver, but lacks some other benefits of iver. But it does the job of doorman to zinc.

I am keeping iver in reserves in case the current protocol is challenged.
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Re: Ivermectin Musings....

Post by AJMD429 »

.

The political swamp certainly seems to extend into the medical world, and for some reason particularly to the vaccines.

https://odysee.com/@Chris_Martenson:2/Kennedy:e

...and look at this - the 'authorities' are planning to CREATE viruses to release to the wild and cause infections somehow sufficient to cause immunity, yet not harm the targeted species. Now nothing to go wrong there, right...??? So far it is just animals they are using these on, but the industry chatter is that they want to do it to humans shortly. In other words, they could vaccinate just a few volunteers, and the vaccine/virus would spread throughout the population and infect/immunize ALL of us - regardless of any consent or lack thereof... :evil:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4732410/
https://odysee.com/@ThunderWizardDotcom ... ccine-vs:5
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Re: Ivermectin Musings....

Post by Grizz »

it SEEMS like it's setting up a police state to reduce the population
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BECAUSE IT IS SETTING UP A POLICE STATE TO REDUCE THE POPULATION

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Screenshot (7361).png
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NO DOUBT ABOUT IT
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