What is best controlled expansion 45-70 bullet?

[Naphtali]

In your experience what is the best controlled expansion bullet, cast or commercial jacketed, for use on large soft-skinned game? By "controlled expansion" I mean the bullet will expand while losing little or none of its original weight. Bullets weight must be between 350 grains and 480 grains.

The rifle is a 45-70. Bullet's crimp-to-nose length (or cannelure-to-nose) must be .440 inch or less. Nose shape must satisfactory for tubular magazines.

Pressures would be between 40K and 43K CUP -- that is, at the high end of safe for modern Marlin 1895 and Miroku M1886 actions, as would be expected muzzle velocities.

Maximum range for which rifle and ammunition is to be used is 140 yards, with 100 yards a more likely maximum range. The extra is "wiggle room."

[SJPrice]

Barnes Triple X all copper bullets expand extremely well, penetrate deeply and lose little if any weight. They are pretty pricey, but they do perform as advertised.

[86er]

The 350 or 405 grain Kodiak bullet first choice, 350 Grain Swift A-Frame second choice.

[TedH]

The 350 gr. Swift A-Frame is unbeatable in the 45-70, as far as I'm concerened. It balances bullet weight with velocity for a good trajectory that will get the job done in 90% of hunting applications. In my Marlin, they shoot as accurately as anything else I've tried. They will perform through a broad velocity spectrum too, 1200-2600 fps is what the President of Swift told me. They are not cheap, over a buck a piece. But when you consider all the other expense that goes into a hunt, why pick the most important piece of the puzzle to cheap out on?

[Jay Bird]

Shot placement, anything will kill. 45 cal. is already a big hole.

[rjohns94]

I used the kodiak 350 grainer on the Neelgai during the texas levergunner safari and it performed beautifully. It was also used on the Longhorn taken that weekend and the mushroom was perfect and all the bullet weight was there.

[maddog]

You've posted this same question on 2 other website forums. I'm gonna give ya the same answer here, as I did on one of the others. The 300 gr. nosler partition is the best. As I said before, 6 hogs, 1 javelina, 1 bear, and 7 head of african plains game, can't be wrong!

maddog

[Tycer]

What do you want to shoot with said bullet? How much damage do you want to do?
I have experience with a 450 grainer that holds together very well, but really, really, trashes lots of meat.





Shoulder cut away.

Pointing at impact. Shoulder to shoulder pass through. Everything in the diaphragm liquified, off shoulder mostly removed on impact, animal thrown a long way. Pieces of bone pulverized onside flank, neck, tenderloins......

If I were to hunt deer again with this bullet, I will water quench it to reduce expansion.

[Naphtali]

You've posted this same question on 2 other website forums. I'm gonna give ya the same answer here, as I did on one of the others. The 300 gr. nosler partition is the best. As I said before, 6 hogs, 1 javelina, 1 bear, and 7 head of african plains game, can't be wrong!

maddog

Powerful endorsement. Powerful endorsement. Powerful endorsement.
***
I'm getting to that anxiety time where I must decide where the money goes. The reason for many queries is to obtain a valid sampling of experienced users with 45-70. My infirmities force me to attempt to kill game with as little getaway run as possible, at a price that I can afford. I've got my hunting area focused that restricts the range at which I'll see the game -- sort of like hunting in the Missouri Ozarks.

I have three rifles and I want to turn one into "the rifle" and dispose of the others. I'm considering 45-70 through 510 Kodiak Express. That's a big power spread and a huge cost spread. As I was about to spend the bucks, the thought popped into my head: "If a 45-70 bullet can do essentially the same job as the 510 Kodiak Express by using [expensive] ultra reliable bullets, perhaps the cost of 1000 of these bullets will be significantly less than the conversion cost." Problem to solve is to identify such a bullet, if one exists. So I query.

My instinct is toward Swift's A-Frame because it is an "H" mantle design like Nosler, with a bonded core, plus it meets the weight stipulation. And I'm glad I queried several places because I was completely unaware that Swift makes a bullet compatible with 45-70 tubular feed rifles.

Having written that, the LBT wheel weight bullet shows itself to be impressive also. I didn't realize that wheel weight bullets could be driven as identified in the post.

Am I making sense or making noise? I don't have tissue paper feelings, so you can advise me truthfully.

[Doc Hudson]

IMNSHO, the .45-70 is pre-expanded and also have plenty of penetration.

[AndyM]

I have had good luck with Hornady 350 FP and Remington 405. I do not know if they are the "best" but they sure work on Eastern Whitetails and Black Bears

[Hobie]

I do believe you can do with cast or relatively inexpensive jacketed bullets in the .45-70. You don't need anything exotic. As has been pointed out, the .45 is almost pre-expansion and placement is the key. Indeed, you don't need the .45-70 run at over 28K PSI to be perfectly acceptable to 150 yards. Many are still taking game using the .45-70 with BP and cast bullets.

[Pete44ru]

[The 300 gr. nosler partition is the best.]

+ 1 - Especially for deer and black bear. I never had one take as much as one step, since I started using it on them. DRT, so to speak.

I would move up to a slightly heavier slug, like the 350gr Swift/Kodiak should I get the opportunity to pop an elk, moose, or larger bear.

.

[Bluehawk]

NO need to go exotic I M H O If you want jacketed 400 Speer works well Last deer I shot with it was from a slighty down angle ( I was above the deer on the ground ) deer was approx 30 yards away , comming towards me walking right to left. Bullet entered the neck on the left side of the deer hit the spine travelled a little over 11 inches in the spine then exited the spine then ended under the skin approx 10 inches from the spot it exited the spine all together travelled approx 22 inches in the deer expanded very well and reteined weight was 386 grains .
ANY cast bullet made from wheel weights or softer, is 350 grains or heavier , and has a blunt , flat nose, will penetrate , expand and retain a lot of weight. either choice will do. WE ARE TALKING A 458(or so ) BULLET TO BEGIN WITH !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[alnitak]

I'm in the hard cast with large meplat camp. For me, it's Randy Garrett 420 gr. +P Hammerheads for any large animals. There are many other choices for smaller game like deer -- out of a .45-70 I don't think it really matters...factory ammo, etc...you can't make tham any deader.

[Duff L Bagg]

If you are intending to hunt deer and black bear in the lower 48, there is no reason to spend a buck per bullet. Either buy commercial cast bullets or cast them yourself. A cast bullet will get a deer very dead in short order, but if you don't want to go the cast road try the Remington 405's they are more bullet than most deer can carry away. But if you intend to visit Joe and shoot some of his big critters then use premium bullets so that you don't have to hear that 86 of Joe's going off.
I used the Remington 300grn HP bullet in my Marlin to let the air out of a 250 lbs hog down here in Fl several years ago and that hog was dead before it hit the ground.
The 45-70 is a great one gun hunting battery. Buy several different bullets and load them up and let your rifle tell you what it wants to shoot. Makes for a good excuse to get out to the range burn some powder.

[Bogie35]

I'm not really familiar with 45-70 hunting. But, wouldn't a non-expanding hard cast bullet still kill cleanly without so much ruined meat?

Just asking,
bogie

[O.S.O.K.]

As I am sure you are gathering, it's hard to find a poor bullet for the 45-70 due to the lower velocity, large diameter and heavy weight (even the 300's are heavy when you think about it).

You say thin skinned game, so I'd go with the Nosler 300 grain partition - pushed out at 2200 fps it shoot fairly flat and will hold together if you catch one close in.

If you were after anything dangerous, I'd have another answer.

[scr83jp]

In your experience what is the best controlled expansion bullet, cast or commercial jacketed, for use on large soft-skinned game? By "controlled expansion" I mean the bullet will expand while losing little or none of its original weight. Bullets weight must be between 350 grains and 480 grains.

The rifle is a 45-70. Bullet's crimp-to-nose length (or cannelure-to-nose) must be .440 inch or less. Nose shape must satisfactory for tubular magazines.

Pressures would be between 40K and 43K CUP -- that is, at the high end of safe for modern Marlin 1895 and Miroku M1886 actions, as would be expected muzzle velocities.

Maximum range for which rifle and ammunition is to be used is 140 yards, with 100 yards a more likely maximum range. The extra is "wiggle room."

I have a friend who hunted elk & mule deer in Colorado with a 6mm ruger #1, that's a small caliber bullet but he dropped running animals with a single shot ,if you're a good shot you can use any weight bullet to drop an animal.I have 250gr Barnes TSX Flatnose bullets, I'm planning to load for use in my Marlin 45-70 XLR for elk,pig & deer.I've fired bullets as heavy as 500 grains in a 45-70 schuetzen rifle with a curved steel butt plate but they really weren't comfortable to shoot & my shoulder suffered for over a week so now with the marlin I'm using lighter weight bullets, the max I'll load is 300grains.

[1886]

I would think guys like 86er and others who have taken many or witnessed many heads of game taken with the .45-70 should be listened too. I think Paco has written on this subject. 1886.

[Tycer]

I would think guys like 86er and others who have taken many or witnessed many heads of game taken with the .45-70 should be listened too. I think Paco has written on this subject. 1886.

86er uses a 405 grain Kodiak bullet running around 2000 fps loaded by Mike @ Grizzly Cartridge. They are not listed on the website, but Mike loads them regularly. 86er has guided and has taken all manner of game from the wiley Texas bunny to the meanest charging Water Buffalo. And LOTS of them. You cannot go wrong with his load.

[preventec47]

Stop fretting and just get yourself a box of the LeverEvolution ammo and be done with it.

I seriously doubt you could find any commercially sold bullet or factory ammo choice in 45/70
including the trap door power loads that wont work on any deer in North America with reasonable
shot placement.

I'd sure like to toy around with some of those lightweight ( funny to think 250gr is lightweight )
but tough BArnes bullets at some blistering velocities.

[Naphtali]

Apparently, Hawk bullets are created in a similar fashion with Barnes originals. They also apparently use essentially identical materials -- annealed pure copper tubing for jacket and pure lead inserted before forming.

In the 45-70-class of bullets, they have three jacket thicknesses available, .025, .035, and .050 inch. At muzzle velocities of 1800 fps, approximately how much expansion should one expect from 400-grain bullets of these types at 100 yards when shooting .035-inch jackets, with .050-inch jackets?

[86er]

I had an incident with the Hawk bullets. A farmer was going to get rid of his herd of cattle - about 12 cows. He said we could shoot them if we skinned them and loaded them in his cement building. Wanting to test bullets and gain experience while helping out, I thought I had 405 gr Kodiak bullets, as the box was marked the same as my favorite Kodiak - BCFP's. After three different cows were running around with holes in them the farmer said "I told you to shoot them, not engage in cruelty to animals". It was embarrassing and frustrating but we quickly dispatched the three cows and I called the cartridge manufacturer. Alas, I was shooting the same brand and BCFP's but they were loaded with .035 jacket Hawk 400's, NOT the Kodiaks. The manufacturer sell the cartridges to Cabelas with the Hawk because that's what they want. I had mistakenly received a box. The Hawk bullets were not penetrating more than 10 or 12 inches on the cows, and expanding to a quite flat quarter sized frisbee. I opened another box and found the familiar "ring" around the bullet indicating they were Kodiaks. We proceeded to shoot 6 cows in a row with shoulder to shoulder penetration and one shot putting them down for good. I then shot two head on with instant kills and one head on that turned to leave, but didn't make two steps before I put two more bullets into the shoulder, killing it.

The point is - the Hawk bullets with the .035 jackets are too soft for real heavy, thick skinned, large boned and certainly dangerous game. I cannot comment on the .050 jacketed bullets as I've never had any to try. To answer your question directly, "How much expansion at 100 yards"? I would have to know what you were shooting them into. If you're talking about large animals in the 700-1000 pound range the expansion is great but the penetration and weight retention are sorely lacking. If you are talking about 100-300 pound animals there will likely be a good combination of expansion and penetration that it will take out any thin skinned animal pretty readily.

What I can say is that since receiving my 1886 Miroku/Winchester in 2005, I have killed about 100 animals with the 405 gr Kodiak and the fistful of bullets I have recovered all look like the same mushroom. I have also used the Punch bullet for second shots on water and cape buffalo with good results. Recently, I have shot a longhorn, a couple of other large critters, and I have been witness to a couple of large critters shot with the 350 grain Kodiak. What I have found is that the 350 gr does not expand as much but retains 90% or more of its weight. The penetration is about the same as the 405 grain, that tends to expand to .90 something and retains about 80% of its weight.

If you want a "Go-To" all around bullet in 45-70, I will give my personal guarantee that you will get it done right with either of the Kodiak bullets. If you do not need the premium bonded bullet, cannot access them or afford them, I would steer you towards the 350 gr Swift A-Frame and the 300 gr Nosler partition for any animal up to 500 pounds and within 150 yards. I make those endorsements based on personal observations in the field on animals. Those bullets when recovered are very consistent from animal to animal regardless of the overall animal live weight. I have seen plenty of 405 gr Rem's, 405 gr Woodleighs and 325gr LeverEvol used successfully. The difference is that the recovered bullets were not consistent, demonstrating that you cannot predict the bullets behavior from animal to animal even withing the same species.

[Naphtali]

86er:

Thanks for the information and experience. What I think I read is that .035-inch jackets expand too much, causing final sectional density to become inadequate. Barnes Original bullets currently manufactured for 45-70 have .032-inch jackets -- more and worse.

Costs of Kodiak bullets and Swift A-Frames for 45-70 are comparable. Afford one, afford either.
***
Apparently, A-Frames, Kodiaks, and Hawk bullets all expand without shattering or disintegrating to 2-3 times initial diameter while retaining 70-90 percent of initial weight. Do we agree on this? If this is accurate, I am unclear on how/why Hawk bullets would not penetrate while the others will?

I suspect the only way to get a handle on what is happening would be to fire a representative sample of each into a composite test medium, such as: 4 inches of wet newsprint; 4 inches of pine boards; followed by 36 inches of wet newsprint at 10 yards and 100 yards. If anything goes amiss at 10 yards, test bullet fails. If anything goes amiss at 100 yards, test bullet fails. In your opinion, would such a test among whatever 400-grain bullets I choose yield valid predictions on a bullet's expansion and penetration when compared with the same bullet shot at elk at comparable range? If you do not, please advise what adjustment to make. There is no possibility of my having access to cattle cadavers or elk to cull.

Hawk also makes a 450-grain 45-70 bullet with .035-inch jacket. Would the 12.5 percent increase in weight with slightly reduced velocity offset its excessive expansion?

And lastly, I am nearly certain Hawk would create the 450-grain bullet with a .050-inch jacket at nominal cost increase, still leaving cost per bullet competitive with the other premium bullets. In this instance, without having tested it, I anticipate any problem would occur because of insufficient expansion.

[RKrodle]

Rate of expansion, the hawks expand quickly slowing penetration. The Kodiak and A-frame expand at a slower rate allowing for more, deeper, penetration. A Hawk may work well on a small animal but, not as well on a big animal. A Kodiak may not expand much on a small animal. Match the bullet to the game you are hunting. If I had to choose one it would be something that would work on large animals.

[Tycer]

Naphtali,

I see no need to go through all that testing with all the live animal, real-world testing 86er has done. You can go over to www.castboolits.com and look at the testing that they've done with cast bullets in the 45-70. Look, pick the Kodiak or A-frame, or a cast bullet sized for the game you are gonna shoot and develop a load that you can shoot well, and go shoot a few hundred at some 10" targets from field positions. As was said before .458" leaves a big hole. Somewhere close to an inch. Should work great in most situations on our continent.

[Naphtali]

Rate of expansion, the hawks expand quickly slowing penetration. The Kodiak and A-frame expand at a slower rate allowing for more, deeper, penetration. A Hawk may work well on a small animal but, not as well on a big animal. A Kodiak may not expand much on a small animal. Match the bullet to the game you are hunting. If I had to choose one it would be something that would work on large animals.

This is an AHA! moment. Such an obvious thing I overlooked.

Many thanks.

[Jarhead]

The 350 or 405 grain Kodiak bullet first choice, 350 Grain Swift A-Frame second choice.

The 350 Grain Kodiak is one outstanding bullet. I use this exclusively in my 1895 45-70/457 WW Mag...Mine are loaded to 2200fps and make an excellent deer/elk round. Nice clean hole and no meat damage. I sent my rifle up to my Son-in Law in Alaska to use, so I'll just have to get by with my Model 71 for now...

[Naphtali]

I've concluded the Alaska Bullet Works 405-grain Kodiak bonded core flat nose soft point bullet is the primary big game bullet I want to obtain for 45-70s. Between Remington 405-grain and Speer 400-grain jacketed flat points, which more closely duplicates the trajectory and point of impact of the 405-grain Alaska Bullet Works Kodiak?