44-40 popularity and the first HV loads

[mickbr]

Fellas wondering how the HV loads for the 44-40 that came out in the early 1900's were viewed by hunters? By HV I mean the 1500fps odd loads with 200 grain bullets. Was the 44-40 still quite popular in this period and these loads considered great new medicine? Or was its popularity dropping off and this load had minimal impact? I understand they were loaded until the 40's alongside a swathe of fast bottleneck cartridges so I am assuming the calibre and load was popular quite a while

[Dusty Texian]

About the 44 wcf popularity my guess is it was popular used by many and still is because it works and the firearms it was chambered in were themselves very popular . My guess is that the then new Hi Velocity round was a welcome improvement Folks back then didn't jump out and buy a new hunting firearm near as much as today . I think most folks used what they had and passed it along . One thing to remember is that the sales for the old 1873 were still strong even after the introduction of the very good Browning designs 86 - 92 - 94 and so on . I have read many times that the Hi Perf 44 wcf was discontinued because there was fear that the stout load may be more than an old worn toggle link 73 or Bp. frame Colt SAA could handle . That's just an idea and may and may not be the real story . Hopefully Brian will chime in , I would bet he knows the facts . Will be following . ,,,DT

[Bryan Austin]

Fellas wondering how the HV loads for the 44-40 that came out in the early 1900's were viewed by hunters? By HV I mean the 1500fps odd loads with 200 grain bullets. Was the 44-40 still quite popular in this period and these loads considered great new medicine? Or was its popularity dropping off and this load had minimal impact? I understand they were loaded until the 40's alongside a swathe of fast bottleneck cartridges so I am assuming the calibre and load was popular quite a while

Great question mickbr, can't wait to see the documented answers!!!!

44 W.H.V., from 1903 to 1938, last seen in catalogs in 1943....40 years of unpopularity?

Just don't forget that these used 200gr .4255" Winchester JSP bullets.

Popularity in availability
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... 1661829297

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[Carlsen Highway]

From what I have read they were reasonably popular, but they were also very inaccurate compared to the normal loads, so thats why they didnt become the new standard.

[mickbr]

Fellas wondering how the HV loads for the 44-40 that came out in the early 1900's were viewed by hunters? By HV I mean the 1500fps odd loads with 200 grain bullets. Was the 44-40 still quite popular in this period and these loads considered great new medicine? Or was its popularity dropping off and this load had minimal impact? I understand they were loaded until the 40's alongside a swathe of fast bottleneck cartridges so I am assuming the calibre and load was popular quite a while

Great question mickbr, can't wait to see the documented answers!!!!

44 W.H.V., from 1903 to 1938, last seen in catalogs in 1943....40 years of unpopularity?

Just don't forget that these used 200gr .4255" Winchester JSP bullets.

Popularity in availability
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... 1661829297

Untitled.png

Bryan, great resource thanks! A real eye opener on the 44-40

[Galloway]

I kinda wonder if the old 73s could handle a shot or two of them per season, and folks never knew any wiser?

[mickbr]

Bryan, can I ask if there are any load data using 2400 powder to get to that HV power in rifle length barrels? I'm interested in this as it would also apply to a 44 mag rifle. Im looking at either running stout loads of unique or power pistol to get there, or lesser loads of 2400. Not sure how low 2400 likes going though.

[Bryan Austin]

Bryan, can I ask if there are any load data using 2400 powder to get to that HV power in rifle length barrels? I'm interested in this as it would also apply to a 44 mag rifle. Im looking at either running stout loads of unique or power pistol to get there, or lesser loads of 2400. Not sure how low 2400 likes going though.

Considering the differences between modern vs original bore difference ranges, Lyman offers some 2400 loads for the 44-40 high pressure loads. Here is where it gets to the nitty gritty when it comes to measurements.

44-40, .429" bore and I think .429 bullet. Other data I don't have at the moment.
2400, 200 JHP, Speer 4425 (.429"), 1,672fps, 15,618psi, estimated 18,461cup, This is Lyman's 49th Max Load for Group II rifles, Lyman lists 19,000cup for this load but I do not have their performance numbers handy.

Don't forget that the 1917 data shows the service pressure for the HV load at 18,000cup, not 22,000cup as we seem to see now days. I thought this as well until recently. The data may have changed after 1917, but for now, I will keep mine at 18,000cup. The proof loads were 23,500cup. During the 1930's, there was published 44-40 HV loads at 33,000cup. I got no desire!!!!!!

Here is my data:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... 1865406066

I think Lyman lists 44 Mag rifle data too but I will check. Someone else may already know

[Bryan Austin]

Looking at the 44 Magnum rifle loads in Lyman's 49th,

Lyman calls for 240gr 429667 with a max load of 20.6gr of 2400 for 1,686fps. No pressure data, and used in a Model 94E 20".

The same load used in a 4" Universal Receiver (test barrel) produced 1,268fps @ 38,900cup. Does not say if a vented barrel was used, probably not or it would have stated such.

Let me go find Larry Gibson's 44 Mag data......

[Bryan Austin]

Here is something I posted back in June on another forum.

The only "closeness" or resemblance between the two cartridges would be the use of 240gr bullets.

The mag can not perform optimal with slower burning rifle powders much slower, if at all, than the 2400/IMR4227 area burning powders...the 44-40 can at least perform. A reason is the weight of the bullets designed to be used by each. 200 vs 240.

The 44 Magnum is listed under both rifle and revolver in the SAAMI specs. while the 44-40 is only listed under the rifle specs.

The 44 magnum is listed as 1,700fps in a rifle (1,170fps/15" vented to 1,600fps/15" non-vented for pistols) with a 240gr bullet. The best I can get out of a 240gr bullet with the 44-40 is 1,500fps from a 20" MGM barrel I use for testing.....and with Ed's 43-230G bullet loaded with Reloder 7.....and that is pushing the 44 W.H.V. max pressures of only 18,000psi as compared to the 44 Magnum's 36,000psi range.

Thus there really is no "closeness" of the two cartridges.

Here is some work that Larry Gibson did a while back.

Phase two test results:
Six loads were selected to be loaded in both 44-40 and 44 Magnum cases for chronographing via the Oehler M35P using the Ruger OM Vaquero 7 ½” barrel revolver with both its original 44-40 cylinder and with the FTBH 44 magnum cylinder. I’ll also list the velocities chronographed with selected loads in the 44-40 Chiappa M92 carbine with 20” barrel.

Load………………………44-40 fps…44 Mag fps…M92 fps

429-200-RF/6.0 gr BE……..947……… 1016………..1188

43-206H/6.0 gr BE………...903…………970………..1121

43-230G/6.0 gr BE………...881…………937

TL430-240-SWC/6.0 gr 700X..858……...937………..1061

429-200-RF/25 gr RL7……1053………..1130…… ..1428

43-230G/25 gr RL7………..1071……….1163

TL430-240-SWC/25 gr RL7..1157…........1204……….1488

All loads in 44-40 cases gave less fps than the same load in 44 magnum cases in the same revolver. The average difference is the 44-40 produced, on average, 93.4% as much velocity in the 44-40 cases as the same load did in the 44 Magnum cases. That does seem to suggest that what I had read years back about the 44-40 producing 95% +/- as much psi as with the same load in a 44 Magnum case is correct. So, is there a correlation we can use to determine safe pressure 44-40 loads with pressure testing being done in the 44 Magnum pressure test barrel? It appears so. Since all was equal in the revolver except the chambering and since velocity is directly related to pressure [all other equal as was in this test] I think we can safely conclude a load that produces so much pressure in the 44 Magnum will only produce 93 – 95% of that pressure in the 44-40 cartridge.